The Academy/Development squads watch thread 2015//16

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Re: The Academy/Development squads watch thread 2015//16

by Nameless » 15 May 2019 07:42

URZZZZ TBF we could line up with a team just from the academy and it'd still look strong

Southwood

Watson
Osho
McIntyre
Obita

Rinomhota
Kelly

Olise
Barrett
Richards

Loader

I'm glad we seem to be focusing more on academy graduates again. With Stam making some ridiculous unneeded signings, I felt the emphasis towards the academy had gone down. Clement and to a further extent Gomes are improving this side of things again


Could even strengthen that and avoid playing players out of position by replacing Loader with Novacovic, Barrett with Loader and Richards (maybe ) with Barrett. You could name a bench of Ward, Holmes, Howe, Richards, East, Holsgrove and maybe Frost.
Not sure I’d rate our chances in the Championship but it’s certainly a side with potential !

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Re: The Academy/Development squads watch thread 2015//16

by SCIAG » 15 May 2019 08:08

URZZZZ
I'm glad we seem to be focusing more on academy graduates again. With Stam making some ridiculous unneeded signings, I felt the emphasis towards the academy had gone down. Clement and to a further extent Gomes are improving this side of things again

McDermott was terrible on the academy front. Between Rodgers leaving and Adkins joining only one new academy player got more than a few minutes - Alex McCarthy. McDermott was happy to use the players he had managed in the reserves who had already been picked by Coppell or Rodgers but he wouldn't give starts to the likes of Jake Taylor or Abdulai Bell-Baggie or Lawson D'Ath who were the Olises of their day. (In his second spell he gave debuts to Josh Barrett and Rob Dickie)

On the other hand Stam promoted Liam Kelly most obviously, finally gave Dominic Samuel a run in the side (ahead of Kermorgant), and gave first starts to the likes of Sam Smith, Tennai Watson, Tom Holmes, and Omar Richards.

Yes Stam missed a few opportunities and wrote off too many players when he first joined but comparing him negatively to McDermott and Clarke on this front is unfair

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Re: The Academy/Development squads watch thread 2015//16

by Hound » 15 May 2019 08:43

yep agreed, Stam certainly gave a number of opportunities to the academy players. bar Kelly, I'm not sure he had too much faith in them mind you, but thats a different story

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Re: The Academy/Development squads watch thread 2015//16

by Sutekh » 15 May 2019 09:59

SCIAG
URZZZZ
I'm glad we seem to be focusing more on academy graduates again. With Stam making some ridiculous unneeded signings, I felt the emphasis towards the academy had gone down. Clement and to a further extent Gomes are improving this side of things again

McDermott was terrible on the academy front. Between Rodgers leaving and Adkins joining only one new academy player got more than a few minutes - Alex McCarthy. McDermott was happy to use the players he had managed in the reserves who had already been picked by Coppell or Rodgers but he wouldn't give starts to the likes of Jake Taylor or Abdulai Bell-Baggie or Lawson D'Ath who were the Olises of their day. (In his second spell he gave debuts to Josh Barrett and Rob Dickie)

On the other hand Stam promoted Liam Kelly most obviously, finally gave Dominic Samuel a run in the side (ahead of Kermorgant), and gave first starts to the likes of Sam Smith, Tennai Watson, Tom Holmes, and Omar Richards.

Yes Stam missed a few opportunities and wrote off too many players when he first joined but comparing him negatively to McDermott and Clarke on this front is unfair


After McCarthy, perhaps the Academy players at the time of McDermott's first stint just weren't the required quality? Taylor and D'Ath have subsequently settled at Division 4/League 2 level while Bell-Baggie is now with Weymouth which would seem to bear that out.

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Re: The Academy/Development squads watch thread 2015//16

by URZZZZ » 15 May 2019 13:47

Denver Royal Which mgrs have used Academy was your point? Anyway...
Meyler 3 year deal. If he pans out, doubt Rino emerges as he did.
Stam 1st yr mgr, had a go, playoff final loss on pens, bad and inexperienced 2nd year. Short tenure, who cares.
Your 1871 thingy was silly? Going back to start of the Academies in modern era, maybe.
To your overall point (I think?), how can we be successful, how viable the PL is organically, remains to be seen.
Lot's of time spent on how thing's shouldn't have been, and rather less on how we get there again.
Good point, there's waaay less chat re. that, than dwelling on the past. (Yann's 1 yr extension. Again?)
Assuming PL is/should be the goal, what would/should it look like? Academy weighting will be criticized accordingly.
Burnley’s model? How should/will we differ?


Of course if Meyler worked, we may not be having this conversation...but my point really was that Rinomhota was still thrown in ahead of Swift, Clement, Edwards when fit etc...so to say Rino got in on "injuries" is a little misguiding IMO. And in all honesty, how many academy players would actually be given a chance without injuries. Foden who's supposed to be the next "big" thing isn't getting in City's 18. It took Hudson-Odoi 8 months to get in regularly for Chelsea

If you look at the times we got promoted, we did it with a certain ethos. Young, hungry hard working players on the cheap from lower leagues (Kitson, Doyle, Long, Le Fondre, the list could go on). Maybe under McDermott, we didn't have a "young" side but certainly players with the correct attitude. Apart from Drenthe, Adkins generally bought into our ethos too

And this is what the focus should be on now. Not chucking money senselessly at older players with a longish contract (not that we could) but focusing on what made us successful in the past (players with a hunger and desire to succeed, which often involves the academy lads)

Burnley's model? Is a great example, they got up to the Prem twice under Dyche in 3 seasons with the correct attitude. The chairman/fans didn't act like spoilt kids when they got relegated (modern football for you) and stuck with him, a great example of time and patience being rewarded


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Re: The Academy/Development squads watch thread 2015//16

by Snowflake Royal » 15 May 2019 14:40

Harsh not to credit McDermott for the continued use of Karacan and Robson-Kanu just because they'd played a bit before him.

Bringing Academy players through isn't just about handing out debuts.

The departure of Adkins and arrival of Clarke did seem to me to bring a downwards trend in Academy graduate appearances in the side. That trend started to lift with Stam thanks to Kelly, but that seems more of an isolated case to me with many more examples of decent players let go or ignored. Clement ramped it up further and Gomes has tentatively pushed it on again, though always easier to do at the end of a season, so we need to see what his summer and early season is like.

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Re: The Academy/Development squads watch thread 2015//16

by Denver Royal » 15 May 2019 15:43

URZZZZ
Denver Royal Which mgrs have used Academy was your point? Anyway...
Meyler 3 year deal. If he pans out, doubt Rino emerges as he did.
Stam 1st yr mgr, had a go, playoff final loss on pens, bad and inexperienced 2nd year. Short tenure, who cares.
Your 1871 thingy was silly? Going back to start of the Academies in modern era, maybe.
To your overall point (I think?), how can we be successful, how viable the PL is organically, remains to be seen.
Lot's of time spent on how thing's shouldn't have been, and rather less on how we get there again.
Good point, there's waaay less chat re. that, than dwelling on the past. (Yann's 1 yr extension. Again?)
Assuming PL is/should be the goal, what would/should it look like? Academy weighting will be criticized accordingly.
Burnley’s model? How should/will we differ?

If you look at the times we got promoted, we did it with a certain ethos. Young, hungry hard working players on the cheap from lower leagues (Kitson, Doyle, Long, Le Fondre, the list could go on). Maybe under McDermott, we didn't have a "young" side but certainly players with the correct attitude. Apart from Drenthe, Adkins generally bought into our ethos too.

Your 'feelings' are littered with exceptions, amid broad generalized statements. (You did similar last week re. all the 'crippling transfers', which were then broken down for you). You talk of 'weird unnatural ethos which lacked hungry attitudes'. You had wanted to start with Stam, but are now starting with Coppell?
I don't pretend to know the ethos of each manager with any clarity, but I think it unlikely that 'They all had it, but he didn't'. (As the only 1st year manager, btw). As far as I know, Stam had a club ethic, on and off the park (and so did his wife) in the short time he was here. (Both did stuff in the community, visited local schools, etc.) Again, an outlier because he was immediately in a promotion race. (In which I saw, btw, 'hungry hard working players and attitudes'). If you're talking 2nd season, we're only talking about 6 months? (Btw, he's the new Feyenoord coach, starts in 2 weeks)
Anyway, much of this has already been covered and discussed at length in the past :wink:. So, looking forward...
.
.
URZZZZ Burnley model? Is a great example, they got up to the Prem twice under Dyche in 3 seasons with the correct attitude. The chairman/fans didn't act like spoilt kids when they got relegated (modern football for you) and stuck with him, a great example of time and patience being rewarded

Don't disagree, but has Burnley's model been widely admired in here? (Not at time of their promotion, anyway).

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Re: The Academy/Development squads watch thread 2015//16

by URZZZZ » 15 May 2019 16:54

Denver Royal
URZZZZ
Denver Royal Which mgrs have used Academy was your point? Anyway...
Meyler 3 year deal. If he pans out, doubt Rino emerges as he did.
Stam 1st yr mgr, had a go, playoff final loss on pens, bad and inexperienced 2nd year. Short tenure, who cares.
Your 1871 thingy was silly? Going back to start of the Academies in modern era, maybe.
To your overall point (I think?), how can we be successful, how viable the PL is organically, remains to be seen.
Lot's of time spent on how thing's shouldn't have been, and rather less on how we get there again.
Good point, there's waaay less chat re. that, than dwelling on the past. (Yann's 1 yr extension. Again?)
Assuming PL is/should be the goal, what would/should it look like? Academy weighting will be criticized accordingly.
Burnley’s model? How should/will we differ?

If you look at the times we got promoted, we did it with a certain ethos. Young, hungry hard working players on the cheap from lower leagues (Kitson, Doyle, Long, Le Fondre, the list could go on). Maybe under McDermott, we didn't have a "young" side but certainly players with the correct attitude. Apart from Drenthe, Adkins generally bought into our ethos too.

Your 'feelings' are littered with exceptions, amid broad generalized statements. (You did similar last week re. all the 'crippling transfers', which were then broken down for you). You talk of 'weird unnatural ethos which lacked hungry attitudes'. You had wanted to start with Stam, but are now starting with Coppell?
I don't pretend to know the ethos of each manager with any clarity, but I think it unlikely that 'They all had it, but he didn't'. (As the only 1st year manager, btw). As far as I know, Stam had a club ethic, on and off the park (and so did his wife) in the short time he was here. (Both did stuff in the community, visited local schools, etc.) Again, an outlier because he was immediately in a promotion race. (In which I saw, btw, 'hungry hard working players and attitudes'). If you're talking 2nd season, we're only talking about 6 months? (Btw, he's the new Feyenoord coach, starts in 2 weeks)
Anyway, much of this has already been covered and discussed at length in the past :wink:. So, looking forward...
.
.
URZZZZ Burnley model? Is a great example, they got up to the Prem twice under Dyche in 3 seasons with the correct attitude. The chairman/fans didn't act like spoilt kids when they got relegated (modern football for you) and stuck with him, a great example of time and patience being rewarded

Don't disagree, but has Burnley's model been widely admired in here? (Not at time of their promotion, anyway).


Someone made a good point on here. When something is successful or things are going right - nothing is really mentioned because there's only so many ways of saying "Dyche has done a good job at Burnley" or whatever

But when things are going bad, you can have pages and pages of discussions because there are so many more ways of looking at negatives than positives

A classic example is our home win against Preston back in March. Barrow and Meite were unplayable, but that wasn't really mentioned. Certainly not to the degree that McShane's poor performance was. People often mention the negatives of things because it can spark a discussion whereas there's only really one way of saying something is successful

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Re: The Academy/Development squads watch thread 2015//16

by Denver Royal » 16 May 2019 01:39

Yep, you’re right.
I've become guarded who I’ll debate with. You weren’t here, but years ago there were so many people and we had a riot, but not so much anymore. Don't know how we get back there?
But yep, you and I shoot the breeze. Going forward, with where we are, I’m optimistic re. Gomes, but reckon you’ll challenge my thought processes, which is fine. I’m only here to talk footy. As you know, others are in here for ‘other’ needs/reasons. Anyway, respect
Last edited by Denver Royal on 16 May 2019 14:17, edited 7 times in total.


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Re: The Academy/Development squads watch thread 2015//16

by URZZZZ » 16 May 2019 02:08

Yeah I’m not on the Gomes train yet but I salute him for keeping us up and he just looks like he loves being here. That isn’t to say I dislike him or owt, I’m just wary of judging too quickly for good/bad (I feel I was harsh at the beginning on him but a number of people were)

I think I’m still optimistic for the season ahead, things may look slightly bleak now but no-one can ever predict football. Who’d have thought derby to win at 2-0 down tonight? A pessimistic fan before a ball has even been kicked really shouldn’t be following football!

The only thing is I’d like us to go for the jugular a little more this season rather than hold on for narrow wins. Whether that was a short term fix implemented or how Gomes operates, im not sure but time will tell on that score

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Re: The Academy/Development squads watch thread 2015//16

by Snowflake Royal » 16 May 2019 07:16

URZZZZ
Denver Royal
URZZZZ If you look at the times we got promoted, we did it with a certain ethos. Young, hungry hard working players on the cheap from lower leagues (Kitson, Doyle, Long, Le Fondre, the list could go on). Maybe under McDermott, we didn't have a "young" side but certainly players with the correct attitude. Apart from Drenthe, Adkins generally bought into our ethos too.

Your 'feelings' are littered with exceptions, amid broad generalized statements. (You did similar last week re. all the 'crippling transfers', which were then broken down for you). You talk of 'weird unnatural ethos which lacked hungry attitudes'. You had wanted to start with Stam, but are now starting with Coppell?
I don't pretend to know the ethos of each manager with any clarity, but I think it unlikely that 'They all had it, but he didn't'. (As the only 1st year manager, btw). As far as I know, Stam had a club ethic, on and off the park (and so did his wife) in the short time he was here. (Both did stuff in the community, visited local schools, etc.) Again, an outlier because he was immediately in a promotion race. (In which I saw, btw, 'hungry hard working players and attitudes'). If you're talking 2nd season, we're only talking about 6 months? (Btw, he's the new Feyenoord coach, starts in 2 weeks)
Anyway, much of this has already been covered and discussed at length in the past :wink:. So, looking forward...
.
.
URZZZZ Burnley model? Is a great example, they got up to the Prem twice under Dyche in 3 seasons with the correct attitude. The chairman/fans didn't act like spoilt kids when they got relegated (modern football for you) and stuck with him, a great example of time and patience being rewarded

Don't disagree, but has Burnley's model been widely admired in here? (Not at time of their promotion, anyway).


Someone made a good point on here. When something is successful or things are going right - nothing is really mentioned because there's only so many ways of saying "Dyche has done a good job at Burnley" or whatever

But when things are going bad, you can have pages and pages of discussions because there are so many more ways of looking at negatives than positives

A classic example is our home win against Preston back in March. Barrow and Meite were unplayable, but that wasn't really mentioned. Certainly not to the degree that McShane's poor performance was. People often mention the negatives of things because it can spark a discussion whereas there's only really one way of saying something is successful

I'm a big fan of Dyche's work at Burnley. They're an exemplar of how continuity and living within your means and a strong team ethic can take you far. They've played the long game.


Don't talk about it much because I'm here to talk about Reading. Part of my disillusionment and frustration recently is that we used to follow that path but abandoned it and the likes of Burnley are sitting there proving it still can work.

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