Embargos, HMRC Payment defaults, non payment of wages, the usual under Dai Wrongge

[YorkshireRoyal99]

We literally in the last transfer window took on new players at wages that other league 1 teams couldnt compete with.

But L1 clubs' wage bills can only be a certain % of their turnover though, is it 70% I think? So that doesn't add up, we don't seem to be spending any "more" than other clubs in terms of % of turnover (unless it comes out we are).

Given our accounts over the last couple of years, I have always thought there are more major costs somewhere that we don't know of. We estimate the costs of running a Cat 1 Academy, the Stadium the Wage Bill is also stated, but then there seems to be a hefty amount of "unknown" losses that exist within the club. Whether we underestimate how much the training ground, stadium and Cat 1 Academy actually costs us, or there are further costs that we, as fans, can't answer for, I don't know. I've thought it could be the latter.

The rent on Madejski Stadium.
Depreciation of Training ground.
Depreciation on Academy.

Three big costs right there that other clubs dont have.

If Cambridge United fans say Reading swooped in and offerend two of their players much more money that Cambridge could afford, it suggests we pay unsustainable wages. Is our revenue bigger than Cambridges in this league? Not by much i imagine.

For the rent we have on the stadium, we also turnover £1m a year for the stadium naming deal which will offset some of that. I hardly doubt Knibbs and Smith are on sky high wages, I just don't see how we could offer that in our situation, we just have an owner who isn't committed to the club anymore. With another owner, I don't see our wage bill being the problem.

[YorkshireRoyal99]

I think if we'd shown more effort to achieve it and only got part way because deals fell through or major injuries blocked key transfers, the FL might have given more leeway and allowed a mixed sales and alternative methods to qualify rather than just going - well you spent 3 weeks trying to flog one player for more than he's worth then gave up.

It's tough trying to flog a dead horse though, in Moore's case. I know we never really know, but it was reported that we tried to effectively just give Moore away (MLS was quoted at one stage) just to get him off our wage bill, then he got injured again. At that point, he was never going to move. Puscas would have gone if Pisa had won the final, so was out of our hands really. There were rumours we were trying to get shut of Ejaria as well (a swap deal for Laurent at Stoke was touted unrealistically I think) etc. I think we probably did try and make concerted efforts to move some of the players.

I didn’t say we should flog dead horses with Moore or Puscas though.

We had other valuable players.

We didn't have much at all, most of the squad were ageing has-been's. It certainly wouldn't have been enough to make up the gap necessary anyway, we'd have maybe had a chance with Moore and Puscas gone, but that would have likely also relied on us getting some likely unrealistic seven-figure fees for Joao, Meite and Ejaria.

[WestYorksRoyal]

Who would buy Bearwood as a training ground though - and if another club did want to buy it, why would they then allow us to continue using part of it?

For example, lets say Fulham decided it made sense for them - would they really want a lower league team using a small proportion of it?

I suspect you're right; Dai may be interested in selling but I don't know who would buy it because developing property on it would be so difficult.

Perhaps we could turn a section into a high end health club to bring some cash in?

I wouldnt rule out a developer thinking they could build houses on Bearwood. If not now at some point in the future. There's such pressure to build new houses everywhere that permissions are being granted, often on appeal, that would never have been considered years ago.

I'm saying this without knowing the details of the site, not being a local these days. But golf courses get built on, for example, and wasn't there a recent example of building development being approved nearby. "223 properties on the site for the former Reading Golf Club, off Kidmore End Road. It will be known as Emmer Green Drive."

They would need to gear up for the long haul, hence we could initially rent some of Bearwood back while they start consultations, prepare applications etc., which would take years.

Not a long term decision, but ultimately our long term strategy now is survive this season by any means possible and hope a new owner has a long term plan.

[Elm Park Kid]

Who would buy Bearwood as a training ground though - and if another club did want to buy it, why would they then allow us to continue using part of it?

For example, lets say Fulham decided it made sense for them - would they really want a lower league team using a small proportion of it?

I suspect you're right; Dai may be interested in selling but I don't know who would buy it because developing property on it would be so difficult.

Perhaps we could turn a section into a high end health club to bring some cash in?

I wouldnt rule out a developer thinking they could build houses on Bearwood. If not now at some point in the future. There's such pressure to build new houses everywhere that permissions are being granted, often on appeal, that would never have been considered years ago.

I'm saying this without knowing the details of the site, not being a local these days. But golf courses get built on, for example, and wasn't there a recent example of building development being approved nearby. "223 properties on the site for the former Reading Golf Club, off Kidmore End Road. It will be known as Emmer Green Drive."

I would assume though that Bearwood is worth more to whoever will buy the club as a training ground than it is to housing developers.

[Snowflake Royal]

We literally in the last transfer window took on new players at wages that other league 1 teams couldnt compete with.

But L1 clubs' wage bills can only be a certain % of their turnover though, is it 70% I think? So that doesn't add up, we don't seem to be spending any "more" than other clubs in terms of % of turnover (unless it comes out we are).

Given our accounts over the last couple of years, I have always thought there are more major costs somewhere that we don't know of. We estimate the costs of running a Cat 1 Academy, the Stadium the Wage Bill is also stated, but then there seems to be a hefty amount of "unknown" losses that exist within the club. Whether we underestimate how much the training ground, stadium and Cat 1 Academy actually costs us, or there are further costs that we, as fans, can't answer for, I don't know. I've thought it could be the latter.

The rent on Madejski Stadium.
Depreciation of Training ground.
Depreciation on Academy.

Three big costs right there that other clubs dont have.

If Cambridge United fans say Reading swooped in and offerend two of their players much more money that Cambridge could afford, it suggests we pay unsustainable wages. Is our revenue bigger than Cambridges in this league? Not by much i imagine.

How long would it have taken you to look up that Cambridge's average attendance is half ours and their STs are cheaper GWL?

Took me about a minute.

So yeah, it should be substantially bigger.

[bcubed]

I suspect you're right; Dai may be interested in selling but I don't know who would buy it because developing property on it would be so difficult.

Perhaps we could turn a section into a high end health club to bring some cash in?

I wouldnt rule out a developer thinking they could build houses on Bearwood. If not now at some point in the future. There's such pressure to build new houses everywhere that permissions are being granted, often on appeal, that would never have been considered years ago.

I'm saying this without knowing the details of the site, not being a local these days. But golf courses get built on, for example, and wasn't there a recent example of building development being approved nearby. "223 properties on the site for the former Reading Golf Club, off Kidmore End Road. It will be known as Emmer Green Drive."

I would assume though that Bearwood is worth more to whoever will buy the club as a training ground than it is to housing developers.

If you could get permission for houses that would almost definitely be the maximum value for the site.

[Snowflake Royal]

On Smith and Knibbs,I also doubt it was just money that attracted them.

The state of the art facilities and being (mis)sold on a promotion challenge is probably just as valuable to them as a pay rise, not to mention Smith grew up at the club.

I suspect our wage bill is relatively sustainable for our income now at least (maybe a bit more work required) but the problem is the ST money and probably much of the TV money will have gone to cover costs and debts prior to the season starting.

[Fezza]

On Smith and Knibbs,I also doubt it was just money that attracted them.

The state of the art facilities and being (mis)sold on a promotion challenge is probably just as valuable to them as a pay rise, not to mention Smith grew up at the club.

I suspect our wage bill is relatively sustainable for our income now at least (maybe a bit more work required) but the problem is the ST money and probably much of the TV money will have gone to cover costs and debts prior to the season starting.

Given that Smith, Knibbs and Wing are contracted until 2026 I suspect that we could get good money for them, barring small release clauses.

Savage also is contracted until 2027, however I can't help but feel the pay rise / not playing debate on social media is pointless - even if the wage increase wasn't there, or we had the money, he still wouldn't be starting - Craig is much better.

[Greatwesternline]

But L1 clubs' wage bills can only be a certain % of their turnover though, is it 70% I think? So that doesn't add up, we don't seem to be spending any "more" than other clubs in terms of % of turnover (unless it comes out we are).

Given our accounts over the last couple of years, I have always thought there are more major costs somewhere that we don't know of. We estimate the costs of running a Cat 1 Academy, the Stadium the Wage Bill is also stated, but then there seems to be a hefty amount of "unknown" losses that exist within the club. Whether we underestimate how much the training ground, stadium and Cat 1 Academy actually costs us, or there are further costs that we, as fans, can't answer for, I don't know. I've thought it could be the latter.

The rent on Madejski Stadium.
Depreciation of Training ground.
Depreciation on Academy.

Three big costs right there that other clubs dont have.

If Cambridge United fans say Reading swooped in and offerend two of their players much more money that Cambridge could afford, it suggests we pay unsustainable wages. Is our revenue bigger than Cambridges in this league? Not by much i imagine.

How long would it have taken you to look up that Cambridge's average attendance is half ours and their STs are cheaper GWL?

Took me about a minute.

So yeah, it should be substantially bigger.

If most of every clubs money comes from TV revenue than this matters a lot less. Cambridge also werent paying Ejaria's wages. Its plausible Ejaria wages alone would eat up the entire difference of Reading and Cambridge's ticket sales.

[Snowflake Royal]

The rent on Madejski Stadium.
Depreciation of Training ground.
Depreciation on Academy.

Three big costs right there that other clubs dont have.

If Cambridge United fans say Reading swooped in and offerend two of their players much more money that Cambridge could afford, it suggests we pay unsustainable wages. Is our revenue bigger than Cambridges in this league? Not by much i imagine.

How long would it have taken you to look up that Cambridge's average attendance is half ours and their STs are cheaper GWL?

Took me about a minute.

So yeah, it should be substantially bigger.

If most of every clubs money comes from TV revenue than this matters a lot less. Cambridge also werent paying Ejaria's wages. Its plausible Ejaria wages alone would eat up the entire difference of Reading and Cambridge's ticket sales.

Cambridge also aren't running a first team squad half full of U22s with almost no league experience going into the season.

The further down the league structure the smaller the slice of income TV money is.

[WestYorksRoyal]

On Smith and Knibbs,I also doubt it was just money that attracted them.

The state of the art facilities and being (mis)sold on a promotion challenge is probably just as valuable to them as a pay rise, not to mention Smith grew up at the club.

I suspect our wage bill is relatively sustainable for our income now at least (maybe a bit more work required) but the problem is the ST money and probably much of the TV money will have gone to cover costs and debts prior to the season starting.

Given that Smith, Knibbs and Wing are contracted until 2026 I suspect that we could get good money for them, barring small release clauses.

Savage also is contracted until 2027, however I can't help but feel the pay rise / not playing debate on social media is pointless - even if the wage increase wasn't there, or we had the money, he still wouldn't be starting - Craig is much better.

And while we need to count the pennies, £2k a month is peanuts. If Wing got injured and he still didn't start, I'd get suspicious.

[Hound]

I wouldnt rule out a developer thinking they could build houses on Bearwood. If not now at some point in the future. There's such pressure to build new houses everywhere that permissions are being granted, often on appeal, that would never have been considered years ago.

I'm saying this without knowing the details of the site, not being a local these days. But golf courses get built on, for example, and wasn't there a recent example of building development being approved nearby. "223 properties on the site for the former Reading Golf Club, off Kidmore End Road. It will be known as Emmer Green Drive."

I would assume though that Bearwood is worth more to whoever will buy the club as a training ground than it is to housing developers.

If you could get permission for houses that would almost definitely be the maximum value for the site.

Tbf that site is in the middle of Emmer Green with all the related infrastructure- schools, shops nearby etc. Bearwood is relatively out of the way. Not convinced it would be hugely attractive to developers for housing

[Armadillo Roadkill]

Didn't each incoming player's wages have to be validated by the league as being within the set parameters? So it's unlikely it's that racking up the debts.

Realtivley small costs (like the catering at Bearwood, policing, team coach travel etc.) become big debts if you don't pay them for six months.

However we got them, the more they add up, the harder it is to sell the club.

[Greatwesternline]

How long would it have taken you to look up that Cambridge's average attendance is half ours and their STs are cheaper GWL?

Took me about a minute.

So yeah, it should be substantially bigger.

If most of every clubs money comes from TV revenue than this matters a lot less. Cambridge also werent paying Ejaria's wages. Its plausible Ejaria wages alone would eat up the entire difference of Reading and Cambridge's ticket sales.

Cambridge also aren't running a first team squad half full of U22s with almost no league experience going into the season.

The further down the league structure the smaller the slice of income TV money is.

Good points. League One gets £37m this season. So £1.5m each.

Ejaria's transfer fee this season for the accounts would be £3.5m / 4 = £875k
His wages? God knows, but shall we say £15k a week? = £780k.

Ejaria alone used up all the TV money. crikey.

[Brogue]

If most of every clubs money comes from TV revenue than this matters a lot less. Cambridge also werent paying Ejaria's wages. Its plausible Ejaria wages alone would eat up the entire difference of Reading and Cambridge's ticket sales.

Cambridge also aren't running a first team squad half full of U22s with almost no league experience going into the season.

The further down the league structure the smaller the slice of income TV money is.

Good points. League One gets £37m this season. So £1.5m each.

Ejaria's transfer fee this season for the accounts would be £3.5m / 4 = £875k
His wages? God knows, but shall we say £15k a week? = £780k.

Ejaria alone used up all the TV money. crikey.

was reported yesterday that his mutual termination has saved us 200k on wages

[YorkshireRoyal99]

If most of every clubs money comes from TV revenue than this matters a lot less. Cambridge also werent paying Ejaria's wages. Its plausible Ejaria wages alone would eat up the entire difference of Reading and Cambridge's ticket sales.

Cambridge also aren't running a first team squad half full of U22s with almost no league experience going into the season.

The further down the league structure the smaller the slice of income TV money is.

Good points. League One gets £37m this season. So £1.5m each.

Ejaria's transfer fee this season for the accounts would be £3.5m / 4 = £875k
His wages? God knows, but shall we say £15k a week? = £780k.

Ejaria alone used up all the TV money. crikey.

Not necessarily as there is nothing to say that we paid Liverpool £875k for Ejaria this season, that's just an accounting method rather than an actual transaction. We also mutually terminated his contract which, as mentioned, saved us in the region on £200k. So whilst a third of TV money on one player is a lot, it is far from all.

[rabidbee]

Footballers perhaps shouldnt be expected to pay for their own hotels. But here is the thing, if staying in a hotel guarantees you a better performance, and you earn £5,000 a week, why would you not make that small investment in your own career?

If you can afford to pay your agent 10% of your wages to help further your career, you can probably afford £50 once a fortnight to help you play better in matches.

Presumably, some of these guys coming out of the Academy squad won't be on anything like that. But that's fine, you could easily arrange it as a squad so that the cost falls heavier on those who can afford it. (Obviously, it's not just the cost of the rooms, there's the travel arrangements - the driver will need to stay and be paid overnight, meals need to be provided, &c.)

My main concern, though, were I a player in this situation, is the signal it sends to Dai - what else would he cut, in the expectation that the players can subsidise it from their wages? Yes, you don't want to compromise your career, but you also don't want to be screwed over even more by a multimillionaire.

[Greatwesternline]

Cambridge also aren't running a first team squad half full of U22s with almost no league experience going into the season.

The further down the league structure the smaller the slice of income TV money is.

Good points. League One gets £37m this season. So £1.5m each.

Ejaria's transfer fee this season for the accounts would be £3.5m / 4 = £875k
His wages? God knows, but shall we say £15k a week? = £780k.

Ejaria alone used up all the TV money. crikey.

Not necessarily as there is nothing to say that we paid Liverpool £875k for Ejaria this season, that's just an accounting method rather than an actual transaction. We also mutually terminated his contract which, as mentioned, saved us in the region on £200k. So whilst a third of TV money on one player is a lot, it is far from all.

The football league profit rules don't care about cashflow. They care about accounting losses. and other people on here are talking about accounting losses they dont understand in teh accounts. Football accounts have three big outgoings, salaries, contract ammortisations, and losses on disposal of players sold. I.e. you sell a player for less than what his contract is valued for in the books. So its perfectly valid to discuss how much ejaria is costing the accounts.

In terms of cashflow now, why are we so screwed? Probably because our revenue is extremely small now.

In 21-22 in the championship we had matchday income of £3m and tv money of £6m with average attendance of 14249. So £9m in total. And some player sales.
This season we will have maybe average attandance of 10k, so maybe matchday revenue of £1.8m and Tv money of £1.5m. We're not looking at much more than £3m in revenue.

Back end of last season Bowen kept saying we are out of the water now in terms of FFP rules, we'd had out deductions. People even said allowable losses are higher in League 1 because owners can do certain things.

Its probably quite likely that Bowen went and offered some decent deals to attract Knibbs, Smith, Savage. Button. We've been run unsustainably before, we are probably doing so this year too. The fact the club runs out of money each month is pretty strong evidence that our monthly wage bill is in excess of our income.

[Brogue]

Good points. League One gets £37m this season. So £1.5m each.

Ejaria's transfer fee this season for the accounts would be £3.5m / 4 = £875k
His wages? God knows, but shall we say £15k a week? = £780k.

Ejaria alone used up all the TV money. crikey.

Not necessarily as there is nothing to say that we paid Liverpool £875k for Ejaria this season, that's just an accounting method rather than an actual transaction. We also mutually terminated his contract which, as mentioned, saved us in the region on £200k. So whilst a third of TV money on one player is a lot, it is far from all.

The football league profit rules don't care about cashflow. They care about accounting losses. and other people on here are talking about accounting losses they dont understand in teh accounts. Football accounts have three big outgoings, salaries, contract ammortisations, and losses on disposal of players sold. I.e. you sell a player for less than what his contract is valued for in the books. So its perfectly valid to discuss how much ejaria is costing the accounts.

In terms of cashflow now, why are we so screwed? Probably because our revenue is extremely small now.

In 21-22 in the championship we had matchday income of £3m and tv money of £6m with average attendance of 14249. So £9m in total. And some player sales.
This season we will have maybe average attandance of 10k, so maybe matchday revenue of £1.8m and Tv money of £1.5m. We're not looking at much more than £3m in revenue.

Back end of last season Bowen kept saying we are out of the water now in terms of FFP rules, we'd had out deductions. People even said allowable losses are higher in League 1 because owners can do certain things.

Its probably quite likely that Bowen went and offered some decent deals to attract Knibbs, Smith, Savage. Button. We've been run unsustainably before, we are probably doing so this year too. The fact the club runs out of money each month is pretty strong evidence that our monthly wage bill is in excess of our income.

yeah i do wonder what sort of wages we are paying them too. i mean there must have been interest from other cubs too

[Brogue]

top of the mother fcuking page