Squad for 2020/21

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Snowflake Royal
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Re: Squad for 2020/21

by Snowflake Royal » 04 Aug 2020 12:37

You could argue we shouldn't have signed Ilori and could have saved money relying on Cooper.

But if there's a defender we should be talking about as a poor decision to have let go and not give more opportunity it's Dickie IMO.

Got less chance, looked better during his time in the Academy for me, and could have featured at RB or CB for the first team.

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Re: Squad for 2020/21

by Simon's Church » 04 Aug 2020 14:55

Watson doesn't seem to feature in the video of the U23's returning to training, wonder if there's anything to read into that.
Injured, or more part of the first team than Holmes and Holsgrove?

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Re: Squad for 2020/21

by SCIAG » 04 Aug 2020 14:59

I was a huge advocate for James Henry but we got a good fee for him by the standards of the time and we’ve consistently had better options on that right flank - Kebe, McCleary, and now Meite. Next someone will say we shouldn’t have released Jonny Hayes...

Cooper had a lot of faith placed in him by consecutive managers. Unfortunately at 22 he still had the same weaknesses he had at 16. Unsure if he’s managed to cut those out, but moving him on was best both for him and (in theory) better players beneath him.

Dickie and Hyam were cheated, as were a few others. That generation should have been more successful for us than Pearce and Karacan’s generation but circumstances didn’t allow it, except for Kelly.

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Re: Squad for 2020/21

by SCIAG » 04 Aug 2020 15:00

Simon's Church Watson doesn't seem to feature in the video of the U23's returning to training, wonder if there's anything to read into that.
Injured, or more part of the first team than Holmes and Holsgrove?

Watson isn’t under 23 for starters. Does Sam Smith feature?

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Re: Squad for 2020/21

by Simon's Church » 04 Aug 2020 15:04

SCIAG
Simon's Church Watson doesn't seem to feature in the video of the U23's returning to training, wonder if there's anything to read into that.
Injured, or more part of the first team than Holmes and Holsgrove?

Watson isn’t under 23 for starters. Does Sam Smith feature?


Yeah Smith and East do.

For the purposes of the PL2, anyone born in 97 or later is U23.


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Re: Squad for 2020/21

by SCIAG » 04 Aug 2020 15:15

Simon's Church
SCIAG
Simon's Church Watson doesn't seem to feature in the video of the U23's returning to training, wonder if there's anything to read into that.
Injured, or more part of the first team than Holmes and Holsgrove?

Watson isn’t under 23 for starters. Does Sam Smith feature?


Yeah Smith and East do.

For the purposes of the PL2, anyone born in 97 or later is U23.

You’re right. In that case it probably means something. Might be injured or close to a move?

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Re: Squad for 2020/21

by Hound » 04 Aug 2020 15:23

who chose that music for the vid? Horrendous

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Re: Squad for 2020/21

by paultheroyal » 04 Aug 2020 15:37

Simon's Church Watson doesn't seem to feature in the video of the U23's returning to training, wonder if there's anything to read into that.
Injured, or more part of the first team than Holmes and Holsgrove?


If he is the option for the first team - we are in trouble

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Re: Squad for 2020/21

by Snowflake Royal » 04 Aug 2020 18:10

paultheroyal
Simon's Church Watson doesn't seem to feature in the video of the U23's returning to training, wonder if there's anything to read into that.
Injured, or more part of the first team than Holmes and Holsgrove?


If he is the option for the first team - we are in trouble

Why? At worst he'd be second choice and potentially third before signings.

And at one time he was a very handy player with a lot of promise indeed.


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Re: Squad for 2020/21

by genome » 04 Aug 2020 19:58

Snowflake Royal You could argue we shouldn't have signed Ilori and could have saved money relying on Cooper.


At the time of Cooper's sale he was making significant mistakes in every game. His improvement is all down to Millwall.

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Re: Squad for 2020/21

by Snowflake Royal » 04 Aug 2020 23:39

genome
Snowflake Royal You could argue we shouldn't have signed Ilori and could have saved money relying on Cooper.


At the time of Cooper's sale he was making significant mistakes in every game. His improvement is all down to Millwall.

Yeah, said the same earlier.

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Re: Squad for 2020/21

by leon » 05 Aug 2020 09:43

Snowflake Royal
genome
Snowflake Royal You could argue we shouldn't have signed Ilori and could have saved money relying on Cooper.


At the time of Cooper's sale he was making significant mistakes in every game. His improvement is all down to Millwall.

Yeah, said the same earlier.


Or him/his game maturing through playing more, learning his mistakes and gaining experience?

Just like in other walks of life/professions.....

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Re: Squad for 2020/21

by Snowflake Royal » 05 Aug 2020 10:44

leon
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genome
At the time of Cooper's sale he was making significant mistakes in every game. His improvement is all down to Millwall.

Yeah, said the same earlier.


Or him/his game maturing through playing more, learning his mistakes and gaining experience?

Just like in other walks of life/professions.....

He wouldn't have got the same chances though would he. He was at best 3rd choice, even if we kept him and avoided signing Ilori for example.

He's one who is a would have been nice to keep, but not a clear error in losing.


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Re: Squad for 2020/21

by leon » 05 Aug 2020 10:46

Snowflake Royal
leon
Snowflake Royal Yeah, said the same earlier.


Or him/his game maturing through playing more, learning his mistakes and gaining experience?

Just like in other walks of life/professions.....

He wouldn't have got the same chances though would he. He was at best 3rd choice, even if we kept him and avoided signing Ilori for example.

He's one who is a would have been nice to keep, but not a clear error in losing.


Depends - he might have got more game time and then matured and then taken a first team place. Who knows?

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Re: Squad for 2020/21

by linkenholtroyal » 05 Aug 2020 13:20

The one CB I wish we hadn’t sold was Sean Morrison what a leader he has been for Cardiff since. He would have been a main stay in the squad from when he left to now. Always highly rated him and a true leader.

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Re: Squad for 2020/21

by linkenholtroyal » 05 Aug 2020 13:24

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linkenholtroyal I was just saying, Dickie, Henry, Fosu and evening Kelly would be quite useful right now. These are players we could have brought on and be on less wages than the players we brought in. You can add Stacey to that list and Barrett and Howe we could almost make a full first team of youth players we released and should have persevered with.

They would also probably beet our current team on a quarter of the wages.

I know the academy does bring players to the first team but this lot were lost without a fee and Are now better than what we have.


Takes all sorts of course, but I think this absolutely the wrong way to go.

We let James Henry go 10 years ago. In that time we've been Championship winners, we've played in the Premier League,. we've been to the FA Cup semi-final. How long were we supposed to hang on to him? He's a decent pro, but he is certainly not better than all of the midfielders we've been playing in the meantime. And he wouldn't even be at the level he got to, without all the gametime he had, that he would not have got, if he'd stayed with us.

Dickie hasn't played in the Championship at all.
Fosu has only managed to get 2 starts this year in the Championship - a full 3 years after leaving us.

Jack Stacey needed 4 seasons in League 2 to get where he is now.

You're talking about hanging onto players that weren't good enough at the time for the Championship - and either playing them instead of Championship-level players, thereby getting us relegated - or destroying their careers by not playing them, but not allowing them go somewhere else to build a career.

Keeping that many players on the books, in case they do well, but with zero regard to the players themselves, is the kind of horrific shit that Chelsea do. How many of their ridiculous stockpile of young players would actually have decent careers by now, if they'd been let go by Chelsea, instead of being financially hand-cuffed to the club? How many years of Michael Hector's career has he wasted by signing for them?

Nah, oxf*rd that.

It's not just the morality of it - we're never going to have the prestige of a big academy. We get and keep aspiring players on the basis that we'll train them well, and we'll treat them right, and if they work hard, and stay healthy, they can be professional footballers. Treating young players like cash cows instead, is not going to win us any friends, and may not get us much cash either.

Yes, we'll occasionally lose out on good players, but the vast majority of players we release, they build respectable careers for themselves at a lower level, or work through years of that lower level just to get to the level we need - or they drop out completely.

Very few of our ex-Academy lads show us up by being way better than the players we bought instead.


True. It’s would be great to live in a world where we bring through plenty of talent they become first team regulars and that’s the basis of our team but we don’t, how long do you stick with an academy player just in case they become good? Or as you say keep them on the books, hardly play them and hinder their development and future.

There comes a time where the club has to decide whether they are going to give a player that first team regular football or release the player, as hard as it is.

Or do what the big clubs do and put a buy back clause in. We are producing a lot of amazing talent for league 1 that then gets swallowed up by our rivals. I don’t know why we don’t do that more. Let’s say when we sold Dickie to Oxford we had put a 1 million buy back clause in we would not be looking at 5 million to get him back and him likely going to a rival.

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Re: Squad for 2020/21

by Sutekh » 05 Aug 2020 13:30

linkenholtroyal
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Takes all sorts of course, but I think this absolutely the wrong way to go.

We let James Henry go 10 years ago. In that time we've been Championship winners, we've played in the Premier League,. we've been to the FA Cup semi-final. How long were we supposed to hang on to him? He's a decent pro, but he is certainly not better than all of the midfielders we've been playing in the meantime. And he wouldn't even be at the level he got to, without all the gametime he had, that he would not have got, if he'd stayed with us.

Dickie hasn't played in the Championship at all.
Fosu has only managed to get 2 starts this year in the Championship - a full 3 years after leaving us.

Jack Stacey needed 4 seasons in League 2 to get where he is now.

You're talking about hanging onto players that weren't good enough at the time for the Championship - and either playing them instead of Championship-level players, thereby getting us relegated - or destroying their careers by not playing them, but not allowing them go somewhere else to build a career.

Keeping that many players on the books, in case they do well, but with zero regard to the players themselves, is the kind of horrific shit that Chelsea do. How many of their ridiculous stockpile of young players would actually have decent careers by now, if they'd been let go by Chelsea, instead of being financially hand-cuffed to the club? How many years of Michael Hector's career has he wasted by signing for them?

Nah, oxf*rd that.

It's not just the morality of it - we're never going to have the prestige of a big academy. We get and keep aspiring players on the basis that we'll train them well, and we'll treat them right, and if they work hard, and stay healthy, they can be professional footballers. Treating young players like cash cows instead, is not going to win us any friends, and may not get us much cash either.

Yes, we'll occasionally lose out on good players, but the vast majority of players we release, they build respectable careers for themselves at a lower level, or work through years of that lower level just to get to the level we need - or they drop out completely.

Very few of our ex-Academy lads show us up by being way better than the players we bought instead.


True. It’s would be great to live in a world where we bring through plenty of talent they become first team regulars and that’s the basis of our team but we don’t, how long do you stick with an academy player just in case they become good? Or as you say keep them on the books, hardly play them and hinder their development and future.

There comes a time where the club has to decide whether they are going to give a player that first team regular football or release the player, as hard as it is.

Or do what the big clubs do and put a buy back clause in. We are producing a lot of amazing talent for league 1 that then gets swallowed up by our rivals. I don’t know why we don’t do that more. Let’s say when we sold Dickie to Oxford we had put a 1 million buy back clause in we would not be looking at 5 million to get him back and him likely going to a rival.


Is there a sell on clause for Dickie though, as that value could be wiped of any agreed transfer fee for Reading to be able to match it?

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Re: Squad for 2020/21

by Nameless » 05 Aug 2020 14:28

linkenholtroyal
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Takes all sorts of course, but I think this absolutely the wrong way to go.

We let James Henry go 10 years ago. In that time we've been Championship winners, we've played in the Premier League,. we've been to the FA Cup semi-final. How long were we supposed to hang on to him? He's a decent pro, but he is certainly not better than all of the midfielders we've been playing in the meantime. And he wouldn't even be at the level he got to, without all the gametime he had, that he would not have got, if he'd stayed with us.

Dickie hasn't played in the Championship at all.
Fosu has only managed to get 2 starts this year in the Championship - a full 3 years after leaving us.

Jack Stacey needed 4 seasons in League 2 to get where he is now.

You're talking about hanging onto players that weren't good enough at the time for the Championship - and either playing them instead of Championship-level players, thereby getting us relegated - or destroying their careers by not playing them, but not allowing them go somewhere else to build a career.

Keeping that many players on the books, in case they do well, but with zero regard to the players themselves, is the kind of horrific shit that Chelsea do. How many of their ridiculous stockpile of young players would actually have decent careers by now, if they'd been let go by Chelsea, instead of being financially hand-cuffed to the club? How many years of Michael Hector's career has he wasted by signing for them?

Nah, oxf*rd that.

It's not just the morality of it - we're never going to have the prestige of a big academy. We get and keep aspiring players on the basis that we'll train them well, and we'll treat them right, and if they work hard, and stay healthy, they can be professional footballers. Treating young players like cash cows instead, is not going to win us any friends, and may not get us much cash either.

Yes, we'll occasionally lose out on good players, but the vast majority of players we release, they build respectable careers for themselves at a lower level, or work through years of that lower level just to get to the level we need - or they drop out completely.

Very few of our ex-Academy lads show us up by being way better than the players we bought instead.


True. It’s would be great to live in a world where we bring through plenty of talent they become first team regulars and that’s the basis of our team but we don’t, how long do you stick with an academy player just in case they become good? Or as you say keep them on the books, hardly play them and hinder their development and future.

There comes a time where the club has to decide whether they are going to give a player that first team regular football or release the player, as hard as it is.

Or do what the big clubs do and put a buy back clause in. We are producing a lot of amazing talent for league 1 that then gets swallowed up by our rivals. I don’t know why we don’t do that more. Let’s say when we sold Dickie to Oxford we had put a 1 million buy back clause in we would not be looking at 5 million to get him back and him likely going to a rival.


Buyback clauses are not allowed. I believe you are allowed to have a clause allowing you to match any bid made but you can’t fix a price and a guarantee that you can be the buyer. You also have to factor in that there are 3 parties to a transfer and the player has to agree to move and agree terms so unless you have got them in on the deal it won’t happen. I can’t see many players agreeing that they could be forced to rejoin a club at some point for a preagreed wage.

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Re: Squad for 2020/21

by Snowflake Royal » 05 Aug 2020 15:02

linkenholtroyal The one CB I wish we hadn’t sold was Sean Morrison what a leader he has been for Cardiff since. He would have been a main stay in the squad from when he left to now. Always highly rated him and a true leader.

If you look at the CBs we've let go it's depressing.

Hector, Morrison, Cooper.

And in their place we've had Moore, Ilori, Blackett etc.

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Re: Squad for 2020/21

by NewCorkSeth » 05 Aug 2020 15:37

Nameless
linkenholtroyal
SouthDownsRoyal
True. It’s would be great to live in a world where we bring through plenty of talent they become first team regulars and that’s the basis of our team but we don’t, how long do you stick with an academy player just in case they become good? Or as you say keep them on the books, hardly play them and hinder their development and future.

There comes a time where the club has to decide whether they are going to give a player that first team regular football or release the player, as hard as it is.

Or do what the big clubs do and put a buy back clause in. We are producing a lot of amazing talent for league 1 that then gets swallowed up by our rivals. I don’t know why we don’t do that more. Let’s say when we sold Dickie to Oxford we had put a 1 million buy back clause in we would not be looking at 5 million to get him back and him likely going to a rival.


Buyback clauses are not allowed. I believe you are allowed to have a clause allowing you to match any bid made but you can’t fix a price and a guarantee that you can be the buyer. You also have to factor in that there are 3 parties to a transfer and the player has to agree to move and agree terms so unless you have got them in on the deal it won’t happen. I can’t see many players agreeing that they could be forced to rejoin a club at some point for a preagreed wage.

Um. They totally are allowed and have to be for a set price not a "match the current offer". See Barcelona and Gérard Deulofeu.

Pretty sure only rule is price of buy back must be higher than price sold for.

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