Points Deduction Incoming!

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Lower West
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Re: Points Deduction Incoming!

by Lower West » 13 Oct 2021 09:15

Wycombe Royal
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Wycombe Royal Losses across seasons is irrelevant in this case. This is regarding the automatic 12 point deduction for entering administration. Derby would need to show that if Covid hadn't happened then they wouldn't have entered admin. If they can't do that then they have no case. Yes there may be rules around "special circumstances" but even in that case they would need to show that Covid lockdowns was the driving factor in them entering admin.

This rule has been in place for many years, it is not new and is something all clubs signed up to as a way of helping to deter clubs entering admin as an easy way out to clear debts (some businesses still do this and they then buy the company out of admin in a pre-pack arrangement).


Leicester City did this in 2002; they failed to pay the builders of their stadium the last £5.5M, and even dicked the Ambulance Service out of £16K. But they were able to retain their players and got promoted back to the Premier League the following season. IIRC, it was this that led to to points deduction penalty coming into force.

We had a company do this where I work. They owed us £30k (not a huge sum), went into admin, paid creditors 1p in the £ and then the same owner who had bought the company back from the administrators in a pre-pack deal called us up to ask if we would continue to supply him. Needless to say we didn't, and neither did our 2 competitors (there aren't many players in our market).


In the olden days , deals were struck with major suppliers to look after them on the other side. Agreeing to pay higher prices was one mechanism. Business gets very shady behind the scenes. Everybody looks after themselves.

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Re: Points Deduction Incoming!

by morganb » 16 Oct 2021 21:56

Why did Colin Murray mention a hypothetical 12 point deduction on EFL on Quest this evening? That's never been on the cards has it?

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Re: Points Deduction Incoming!

by Snowflake Royal » 16 Oct 2021 23:07

morganb Why did Colin Murray mention a hypothetical 12 point deduction on EFL on Quest this evening? That's never been on the cards has it?

Probably poor journalism. 12 points is standard for administration right?

Wrong penalty and offence.

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Re: Points Deduction Incoming!

by Pepe the Horseman » 16 Oct 2021 23:24

Never really watched the show on Quest, but has anything been made of our ridiculous injury crisis and how we're still grinding out wins? Or is it all just about the looming deduction?

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Re: Points Deduction Incoming!

by From Despair To Where? » 17 Oct 2021 08:02

It was mentioned in a couple of shows about a month ago when we had no fit defenders. The Fulham match being one.


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Re: Points Deduction Incoming!

by Nameless » 17 Oct 2021 09:05

I have found copy of the EFL sanctioning guidelines for breaches of the P&S rules. It’s not entirely clear whether it is the most recent set, but it’s only a couple of years old (2019)
It does state that the expected penalty for breaches is 12 points. It then lists various adjustments to that penalty based on the level of breach. Breaches of more than £15 million get no adjustment, but it’s roughly 1 point reduction for every £2 million less than the £15 million level. There is a 3 point adjustment if there is a reduced level of breach in the latest season.
There are guidelines, not rules, and the league can make decisions based on individual circumstances.

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Re: Points Deduction Incoming!

by Zip » 17 Oct 2021 09:59

Nameless I have found copy of the EFL sanctioning guidelines for breaches of the P&S rules. It’s not entirely clear whether it is the most recent set, but it’s only a couple of years old (2019)
It does state that the expected penalty for breaches is 12 points. It then lists various adjustments to that penalty based on the level of breach. Breaches of more than £15 million get no adjustment, but it’s roughly 1 point reduction for every £2 million less than the £15 million level. There is a 3 point adjustment if there is a reduced level of breach in the latest season.
There are guidelines, not rules, and the league can make decisions based on individual circumstances.


That’s a bit worrying because our would have been beyond £15 million.

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Re: Points Deduction Incoming!

by Snowflake Royal » 17 Oct 2021 11:27

Zip
Nameless I have found copy of the EFL sanctioning guidelines for breaches of the P&S rules. It’s not entirely clear whether it is the most recent set, but it’s only a couple of years old (2019)
It does state that the expected penalty for breaches is 12 points. It then lists various adjustments to that penalty based on the level of breach. Breaches of more than £15 million get no adjustment, but it’s roughly 1 point reduction for every £2 million less than the £15 million level. There is a 3 point adjustment if there is a reduced level of breach in the latest season.
There are guidelines, not rules, and the league can make decisions based on individual circumstances.


That’s a bit worrying because our would have been beyond £15 million.

6 do3s sound very optimistic based on that. 9, 3 suspended might be more likely. :shock:

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Re: Points Deduction Incoming!

by Zip » 17 Oct 2021 11:33

Snowflake Royal
Zip
Nameless I have found copy of the EFL sanctioning guidelines for breaches of the P&S rules. It’s not entirely clear whether it is the most recent set, but it’s only a couple of years old (2019)
It does state that the expected penalty for breaches is 12 points. It then lists various adjustments to that penalty based on the level of breach. Breaches of more than £15 million get no adjustment, but it’s roughly 1 point reduction for every £2 million less than the £15 million level. There is a 3 point adjustment if there is a reduced level of breach in the latest season.
There are guidelines, not rules, and the league can make decisions based on individual circumstances.


That’s a bit worrying because our would have been beyond £15 million.

6 do3s sound very optimistic based on that. 9, 3 suspended might be more likely. :shock:


12 would kill our season. No chance of the play offs and a potential relegation battle.


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Re: Points Deduction Incoming!

by Snowflake Royal » 17 Oct 2021 11:39

Especially as we're unlikely to maintain this form

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Re: Points Deduction Incoming!

by Jagermesiter1871 » 17 Oct 2021 11:49

Doubt we'll find out until next year when we'll be in the Prem anyway so won't be until the following season we receive the deductions, unless of course we do a Bournemouth and never get them.

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Re: Points Deduction Incoming!

by Pepe the Horseman » 17 Oct 2021 12:41

Snowflake Royal Especially as we're unlikely to maintain this form

Not with that attitude.

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Re: Points Deduction Incoming!

by RoyalBlue » 17 Oct 2021 12:49

EFL administering points deductions mid way through the season doesn't sit at all comfortably with me in terms of transparency and fairness.

How do we know that our points deduction won't be increased because of our high position in the table?


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Re: Points Deduction Incoming!

by Nameless » 17 Oct 2021 14:22

RoyalBlue EFL administering points deductions mid way through the season doesn't sit at all comfortably with me in terms of transparency and fairness.

How do we know that our points deduction won't be increased because of our high position in the table?


Why would it ? They have to explain why they set the punishment at the level they do and discussions opened when we were at the other end of the table, so they would have had to increase their proposed deduction several times as we have climbed the table. Which would not look good.
Not sure when the deduction could be applied that would be fairer, given it can only be applied following due process. If you do it at the start of the season you get a Derby/Wycombe situation. If you do it at the end you are directly deciding relegation/ promotion . Mid season seems a pretty good time to do it.

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Re: Points Deduction Incoming!

by RoyalBlue » 17 Oct 2021 14:58

Nameless
RoyalBlue EFL administering points deductions mid way through the season doesn't sit at all comfortably with me in terms of transparency and fairness.

How do we know that our points deduction won't be increased because of our high position in the table?


Why would it ? They have to explain why they set the punishment at the level they do and discussions opened when we were at the other end of the table, so they would have had to increase their proposed deduction several times as we have climbed the table. Which would not look good.
Not sure when the deduction could be applied that would be fairer, given it can only be applied following due process. If you do it at the start of the season you get a Derby/Wycombe situation. If you do it at the end you are directly deciding relegation/ promotion . Mid season seems a pretty good time to do it.


Why would they do it? Because they are a law unto themselves and there doesn't appear to be any right to challenge their decisions. How would they explain it? Like politicians, I'm sure they would come up with some sort of warped logic to justify it. Furthermore, we don't even know (do we?) whether any particular points deduction has been discussed in the 'negotiations' between EFL and club. Surely the normal process would be to establish guilt or innocence first and only then discuss punishment/mitigation if guilt is established. As for due process - just how long do they need? This is starting to make our courts look quick!

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Re: Points Deduction Incoming!

by Snowflake Royal » 17 Oct 2021 15:38

RoyalBlue EFL administering points deductions mid way through the season doesn't sit at all comfortably with me in terms of transparency and fairness.

How do we know that our points deduction won't be increased because of our high position in the table?

Because they’ll have a tariff system and guidance on how to apply it that the club's lawyers will have access to.

They might as well not bother if they're going to be that amateur, because there wouldn't be a hope in hell of upholding any penalty at appeal.

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Re: Points Deduction Incoming!

by Snowflake Royal » 17 Oct 2021 15:39

RoyalBlue
Nameless
RoyalBlue EFL administering points deductions mid way through the season doesn't sit at all comfortably with me in terms of transparency and fairness.

How do we know that our points deduction won't be increased because of our high position in the table?


Why would it ? They have to explain why they set the punishment at the level they do and discussions opened when we were at the other end of the table, so they would have had to increase their proposed deduction several times as we have climbed the table. Which would not look good.
Not sure when the deduction could be applied that would be fairer, given it can only be applied following due process. If you do it at the start of the season you get a Derby/Wycombe situation. If you do it at the end you are directly deciding relegation/ promotion . Mid season seems a pretty good time to do it.


Why would they do it? Because they are a law unto themselves and there doesn't appear to be any right to challenge their decisions. How would they explain it? Like politicians, I'm sure they would come up with some sort of warped logic to justify it. Furthermore, we don't even know (do we?) whether any particular points deduction has been discussed in the 'negotiations' between EFL and club. Surely the normal process would be to establish guilt or innocence first and only then discuss punishment/mitigation if guilt is established. As for due process - just how long do they need? This is starting to make our courts look quick!

RB, you have no idea what you're talking about.

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Re: Points Deduction Incoming!

by Lower West » 17 Oct 2021 15:44

RoyalBlue EFL administering points deductions mid way through the season doesn't sit at all comfortably with me in terms of transparency and fairness.

How do we know that our points deduction won't be increased because of our high position in the table?


The club's owners appear to be the ones deferring the announcement by continuing to argue their case. Suggesting it's not good news. Surely better to get matters resolved. Then the club can move finally move forward.

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Re: Points Deduction Incoming!

by Nameless » 17 Oct 2021 15:56

RoyalBlue
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RoyalBlue EFL administering points deductions mid way through the season doesn't sit at all comfortably with me in terms of transparency and fairness.

How do we know that our points deduction won't be increased because of our high position in the table?


Why would it ? They have to explain why they set the punishment at the level they do and discussions opened when we were at the other end of the table, so they would have had to increase their proposed deduction several times as we have climbed the table. Which would not look good.
Not sure when the deduction could be applied that would be fairer, given it can only be applied following due process. If you do it at the start of the season you get a Derby/Wycombe situation. If you do it at the end you are directly deciding relegation/ promotion . Mid season seems a pretty good time to do it.


Why would they do it? Because they are a law unto themselves and there doesn't appear to be any right to challenge their decisions. How would they explain it? Like politicians, I'm sure they would come up with some sort of warped logic to justify it. Furthermore, we don't even know (do we?) whether any particular points deduction has been discussed in the 'negotiations' between EFL and club. Surely the normal process would be to establish guilt or innocence first and only then discuss punishment/mitigation if guilt is established. As for due process - just how long do they need? This is starting to make our courts look quick!


There obviously is a right to appeal as Birmingham did so and had their penalty halved.
Guilt has been established. And now, in accordance with EFL rules, the club has the opportunity to work with the league on ways forward. It’s actually pretty good that it’s not just a question of ‘we caught you, here’s your punishment’, there is the oppprtunity to put a long term plan together to sort out issues and punishment reflects that (much like in criminal law).
As for it taking a long time you need to bear in mind the EFL is massively stretched, got lots of other issues to deal with and is not rich. I heard an interview with their Chief Exec recently, he’s a busy man !

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Re: Points Deduction Incoming!

by Snowflake Royal » 17 Oct 2021 17:28

Just to add to that, the season is only about 3 months old and I'm not even sure last season's accounts are published yet. Though obviously the FL will have more up to date records than public I'm sure.

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