The official pass-masters of British football.

Snowball
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Re: The official pass-masters of British football.

by Snowball » 26 May 2011 18:58

Rev Algenon Stickleback H
Snowball The stat that matters is possession in the final third, shots on target, goals.


Shots on target is a pretty awful way of measuring good chances created. A shot that goes wide can be a far better chance than a tame effort from 20 yards that's on target. Those sort of shots are normally the result of a team failing to be able to create clear chance, and getting desperate, rather than indicating playing well.



I didn't ONLY say "shots on target". I said, "possession in the final third, shots on target, goals." ie, it's getting hotter.

Any team can increase its possession stats by passing around the back four. The point of my statement was the obvious one, that what matters is the chances you make, and, ultimately, goals.


For passing you really want to be measuring effective passes, i.e. ones that make a contribution to play, rather than just passes made.
I'm sure we had much more possession under Rodgers then now, but we were far less effective, and created far less.


Oh I didn't know that.

I thought a pass that went to the opposition was better.

I think if you check the article they were on about COMPLETED passes.




Possesion in the final third isn't an indicator of much either.
Most teams who struggle to break down a defence will have a lot of final third possession.
Possession inside the box would be indicative of creating dangerous situations, while relating
that to the number of decent chances creating would give some sort of measure how creative a team is.


I wasn't trying to get into a detailed analysis of the above, merely to say

"a lot of Swansea's possession is meaningless, back-four boring stuff"

That is all.


The basic fact is that for all of Swansea's possession, we've still scored a lot more goals than them.


Means NOTHING. They finished with a better GD, did they not, and three points above us?




(Actually, had we not played silly buggers v Sheffield United and WON 3-2 instead of lost 2-3
we'd've been third on GD, and probably clear favourites for the PO Final.)

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Re: The official pass-masters of British football.

by SLAMMED » 26 May 2011 19:09

Had to take a second look at what Messi was holding there :shock:


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Re: The official pass-masters of British football.

by Victor Meldrew » 26 May 2011 21:28

Agreed with AP's post.
If we do make it to the Prem we will have to work on ball possession because giving it away as much as we do at that level means certainly being punished whereas at this level we do get away with it as the finishing is so much less incisive.
I enjoy watching our team some of the time because it is our team but I would much sooner we played the Swansea way rather than the frantic long-ball stuff that happens so often in our performances.
I think the interesting part about this game is that we will see 4 of the best wingers at this level and when they are on the ball it is exciting.
Good to see on BBC South tonight a snippet of training featuring Kebe-it looks as though he will be fit.

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Re: The official pass-masters of British football.

by Snowball » 26 May 2011 22:21

Earlier in the season I said we were due a hiding
because we gave away so many chances. It never
happened, so (just in case) I withdraw that suggestion.


But you're right, we need to retain ball more. BUT I would rather stick needles in my eyes than retain for retention's sake a la Swansea.



PS. If the Swansea way is so good how come this season they've managed to lose

A 0-2 DEFEAT Hull City (We drew 1-1 there)
A 0-2 DEFEAT Norwich (We lost 1-2 in the 94th minute, playing with ten men)
A 1-2 DEFEAT Leeds (We drew 0-0 there)
A 1-3 DEFEAT Forest (We won there 4-3)
A 0-2 DEFEAT Wigan (Cup)
H 0-1 DEFEAT Bristol City (We won 4-1)
H 1-2 DEFEAT Portsmouth (We won 2-0)
A 0-1 DEFEAT Sheffield Utd (We managed a draw)
A 0-4 DEFEAT QPR (We lost 1-3)
A 1-2 DEFEAT Leicester (We won 2-1)
H 1-2 DEFEAT Leyton Orient FACUP
H 0-1 DEFEAT Cardiff (WE DREW THERE 2-2 AND WON THERE 3-0)
A 0-1 DEFEAT Scunthorpe (We won there 2-0)
A 1-2 DEFEAT Derby (We won there 2-1)
A 1-2 DEFEAT Preston (We drew there 1-1)
A 1-2 DEFEAT Burnley (We won there 4-0)

SIXTEEN DEFEATS. ZERO POINTS or PROGRESS....
We got 26 points in the same fixtures. Plus won at Everton and Stevenage and beat WBA, made the quarter-final of the FA Cup

Maybe our method is a bit more useful than people think.

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Re: The official pass-masters of British football.

by brendywendy » 27 May 2011 09:49

Snowball
Royal Prince Am I the only one that gets bored watching Swansea play keep ball?

I'm excited about the final, don't get me wrong, but I'd much rather watch two teams going at each other like we have done with Forest and Cardiff this season! Also, to think that a team like Blackpool could be replaced by Swansea in the prem is a massive loss!

This game is not going to be one for the tv cameras!



Agreed. I hated it when we tried to do it.

It isn't the only way to play.



agreed- it aint the reading way, thats for sure.never been so bored watching football as under rodgers
i find arsenals game mostly dull, lit up by occasional flashes of brilliance too, and swansea are just a cut price half arsed version of them.


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Re: The official pass-masters of British football.

by brendywendy » 27 May 2011 09:52

glenroyal
Alan Partridge
Possession football with the attacking players to hurt teams is the Rolls Royce of footballf or me. Watching Barcelona do it is the way football should be played



Conversely ...
Possession with
Penetration is
Poetic

I had the pleasure of watching the masters at the Nou Camp earlier this year. Agreed.



barcelona play totally differently to arsenal. when they dont have the ball they press fast and high up the pitch, and they look to release quickly when its on.
arsenal just stroll around for most of teh game
barcelona are more like a cross between arsenal and reading, with arsernals passing game, and readings pressing/breaking game :lol:

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Re: The official pass-masters of British football.

by brendywendy » 27 May 2011 09:54

Victor Meldrew Agreed with AP's post.
If we do make it to the Prem we will have to work on ball possession because giving it away as much as we do at that level means certainly being punished whereas at this level we do get away with it as the finishing is so much less incisive.
I enjoy watching our team some of the time because it is our team but I would much sooner we played the Swansea way rather than the frantic long-ball stuff that happens so often in our performances.
I think the interesting part about this game is that we will see 4 of the best wingers at this level and when they are on the ball it is exciting.
Good to see on BBC South tonight a snippet of training featuring Kebe-it looks as though he will be fit.



probably true, but remember we won our cup games vs prem opposition with much less of the ball than them

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Re: The official pass-masters of British football.

by swansea jack » 27 May 2011 10:00

Snowball Earlier in the season I said we were due a hiding
because we gave away so many chances. It never
happened, so (just in case) I withdraw that suggestion.


But you're right, we need to retain ball more. BUT I would rather stick needles in my eyes than retain for retention's sake a la Swansea.



PS. If the Swansea way is so good how come this season they've managed to lose

A 0-2 DEFEAT Hull City (We drew 1-1 there)
A 0-2 DEFEAT Norwich (We lost 1-2 in the 94th minute, playing with ten men)
A 1-2 DEFEAT Leeds (We drew 0-0 there)
A 1-3 DEFEAT Forest (We won there 4-3)
A 0-2 DEFEAT Wigan (Cup)
H 0-1 DEFEAT Bristol City (We won 4-1)
H 1-2 DEFEAT Portsmouth (We won 2-0)
A 0-1 DEFEAT Sheffield Utd (We managed a draw)
A 0-4 DEFEAT QPR (We lost 1-3)
A 1-2 DEFEAT Leicester (We won 2-1)
H 1-2 DEFEAT Leyton Orient FACUP
H 0-1 DEFEAT Cardiff (WE DREW THERE 2-2 AND WON THERE 3-0)
A 0-1 DEFEAT Scunthorpe (We won there 2-0)
A 1-2 DEFEAT Derby (We won there 2-1)
A 1-2 DEFEAT Preston (We drew there 1-1)
A 1-2 DEFEAT Burnley (We won there 4-0)

SIXTEEN DEFEATS. ZERO POINTS or PROGRESS....
We got 26 points in the same fixtures. Plus won at Everton and Stevenage and beat WBA, made the quarter-final of the FA Cup

Maybe our method is a bit more useful than people think.


Completely pointless sample again. We got more points than you in the games you haven't selected and therefore finished above you in the league.

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Re: The official pass-masters of British football.

by brendywendy » 27 May 2011 10:03

bah! the stats dont lie


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Re: The official pass-masters of British football.

by Snowball » 27 May 2011 10:16

brendywendy
Victor Meldrew Agreed with AP's post.
If we do make it to the Prem we will have to work on ball possession because giving it away as much as we do at that level means certainly being punished whereas at this level we do get away with it as the finishing is so much less incisive.
I enjoy watching our team some of the time because it is our team but I would much sooner we played the Swansea way rather than the frantic long-ball stuff that happens so often in our performances.
I think the interesting part about this game is that we will see 4 of the best wingers at this level and when they are on the ball it is exciting.
Good to see on BBC South tonight a snippet of training featuring Kebe-it looks as though he will be fit.



probably true, but remember we won our cup games vs prem opposition with much less of the ball than them




55% 2-1 Stevenage
52% 1-0 WBA
51% 1-0 Burnley
50% 1-0 Everton
47% 1-0 Torquay
44% 3-2 WBA Away
43% 2-1 Liverpool Away

48.85% Average, 7 Wins

52% 2-2 WBA Home
49% 1-1 Liverpool Home

50.5% average 2 Draws

51% 0-1 Swansea Home
49% 0-1 Man City
48% 2-4 Aston Villa
45% 0-1 Swansea Away 64613

48.25% Average 4



Overall 49.32 % Average Possession & Wins 2 Draws 4 Defeats 16-14

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Re: The official pass-masters of British football.

by Snowball » 27 May 2011 10:29

swansea jack
Snowball Earlier in the season I said we were due a hiding
because we gave away so many chances. It never
happened, so (just in case) I withdraw that suggestion.


But you're right, we need to retain ball more. BUT I would rather stick needles in my eyes than retain for retention's sake a la Swansea.



PS. If the Swansea way is so good how come this season they've managed to lose

A 0-2 DEFEAT Hull City (We drew 1-1 there)
A 0-2 DEFEAT Norwich (We lost 1-2 in the 94th minute, playing with ten men)
A 1-2 DEFEAT Leeds (We drew 0-0 there)
A 1-3 DEFEAT Forest (We won there 4-3)
A 0-2 DEFEAT Wigan (Cup)
H 0-1 DEFEAT Bristol City (We won 4-1)
H 1-2 DEFEAT Portsmouth (We won 2-0)
A 0-1 DEFEAT Sheffield Utd (We managed a draw)
A 0-4 DEFEAT QPR (We lost 1-3)
A 1-2 DEFEAT Leicester (We won 2-1)
H 1-2 DEFEAT Leyton Orient FACUP
H 0-1 DEFEAT Cardiff (WE DREW THERE 2-2 AND WON THERE 3-0)
A 0-1 DEFEAT Scunthorpe (We won there 2-0)
A 1-2 DEFEAT Derby (We won there 2-1)
A 1-2 DEFEAT Preston (We drew there 1-1)
A 1-2 DEFEAT Burnley (We won there 4-0)

SIXTEEN DEFEATS. ZERO POINTS or PROGRESS....
We got 26 points in the same fixtures. Plus won at Everton and Stevenage and beat WBA, made the quarter-final of the FA Cup

Maybe our method is a bit more useful than people think.


Completely pointless sample again. We got more points than you in the games you haven't selected and therefore finished above you in the league.




Actually, you played WORSE than us against the other 22 clubs in this league and are above us ONLY because you beat us twice 1-0.

Without those two games we would have been above you by 3 points.

Had Church scored his sitter at The Liberty, we'd've finished above you on goal difference, both of us on 78 Points.

You did a good job, both games, but you hardly hammered us. We are a far, far better side now.

When you beat us the second time we had managed just 34 points from 24 games. 1.41 points-per-game, on target for a 65 point season

In the next 22 games we got 43 points = 1.95 points per game, maintained over the last 5 months, 4 days followed by a 0-0 draw with Cardiff and 3-0 win

That's 24 games, 47 points = almost exactly 2 points per game which is Championship-winning form and a 91-92 point season


In relation to Reading FC your position is inflated and with Kebe back and Elwood in midfield we will prove on Sunday that we are the better side.

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Re: The official pass-masters of British football.

by WTRoyal » 27 May 2011 10:34

brendywendy i find arsenals game mostly dull, lit up by occasional flashes of brilliance too, and swansea are just a cut price half arsed version of them.


Swansarse?

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Re: The official pass-masters of British football.

by Snowball » 27 May 2011 10:54

Swansea beat us 1-0 on January 1st and this is the "table" from then including that game.


2 23 12-7-4 42-26 +16 43 1.87 Points per Game Reading
3 22 12-4 -6 40-19 +21 40 1.82 Points per Game Swansea City

Not much in it.

However, if you look at the form SINCE that game (FIVE solid months of form plus two more weeks)

2 22 12-7-3 42-25 +17 43 1.95 Points per Game 91 Point Season Reading
3 21 11-4-6 40-19 +20 37 1.76 Points per Game 81 Point Season Swansea City


That is a big gap in performance. Swansea have maintained a decent level but Reading have been playing table-topping football
for five months


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Re: The official pass-masters of British football.

by Gordons Cumming » 27 May 2011 11:09

The league table says they got 3 more points than us, so they must be better.

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Re: The official pass-masters of British football.

by Jackson Corner » 27 May 2011 11:09

Hadn't realised they lost to Scunthorpe. I know we did first game but first day results are misleading remember Plymouth 06? If they can beat them then so can anyone on a given day.

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Re: The official pass-masters of British football.

by Snowball » 27 May 2011 11:17

Gordons Cumming The league table says they got 3 more points than us, so they must be better.


What crap.

Say a side goes clear at the top of the table. They are brilliant, thirty points clear after 2/3 of the season.

Then the team bus crashes and 2/3 of the team are killed.

They get in loanees, play kids, average a point a game and at the season's end, they hang on and win by 3 points.

They are champions, but the actual team currently playing is playing bottom-four quality.


Swansea got a point on us in the first four games, another few points on us in the next dozen games.

They got a decent lead in the race. They were ten points clear of us on December 11th. We were 14th.

They were 4 points clear of Norwich. Who was the better side Norwich or Swansea?

Since then we have gained places and points right up to game 44 and our ppg this year is much better.

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Re: The official pass-masters of British football.

by swansea jack » 27 May 2011 11:25

Jackson Corner Hadn't realised they lost to Scunthorpe. I know we did first game but first day results are misleading remember Plymouth 06? If they can beat them then so can anyone on a given day.


Yeh, the pitch looked like Englefield's! Slight dodgy pen given to them and we missed a load of sitters.

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Re: The official pass-masters of British football.

by Z175 » 27 May 2011 11:29

On form we are clearly favourites. As previosuly posted the last team that didn't go up from our recent record was Reading in 1995.

However they are an exceptionally good side.

too close to call

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Re: The official pass-masters of British football.

by Mr Angry » 27 May 2011 11:34

swansea jack
Jackson Corner Hadn't realised they lost to Scunthorpe. I know we did first game but first day results are misleading remember Plymouth 06? If they can beat them then so can anyone on a given day.


Yeh, the pitch looked like Englefield's! Slight dodgy pen given to them and we missed a load of sitters.


Englefield's????

Not as in Englefield, near Theale per chance?

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Re: The official pass-masters of British football.

by Gordons Cumming » 27 May 2011 11:39

Snowball
Gordons Cumming The league table says they got 3 more points than us, so they must be better.


What crap.

Say a side goes clear at the top of the table. They are brilliant, thirty points clear after 2/3 of the season.

Then the team bus crashes and 2/3 of the team are killed.

They get in loanees, play kids, average a point a game and at the season's end, they hang on and win by 3 points.

They are champions, but the actual team currently playing is playing bottom-four quality.


Swansea got a point on us in the first four games, another few points on us in the next dozen games.

They got a decent lead in the race. They were ten points clear of us on December 11th. We were 14th.

They were 4 points clear of Norwich. Who was the better side Norwich or Swansea?

Since then we have gained places and points right up to game 44 and our ppg this year is much better.


Bloody Hell!

You clearly had no idea that my tongue was firmly in my cheek at the time of writing......................

You need to check in future before you go off on one............................Sarcasm is my favourite hobby

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