Where was Guthrie again?!

[Kebe is our Messi]

He is probably our best midfielder at keeping the ball but that is absolutely it. I do not see how he should be in the team. On the bench to throw on if we need to pass the time but he hasnt justified starting every game at all. Akpan has put him to shame tbh.

[Sanguine]

He is probably our best midfielder at keeping the ball but that is absolutely it.

Absolutely.

So seen as we've spent most of the season without the fcuking ball, you'd think the penny would drop with some people a little quicker.

[Elm Park Pasty]

Our fans are a problem they haven't got nearly enough patience.

I don't claim to any answers. All I know is that what we are doing now is completely wrong. I know we can't play him with two defensive midfielders next to him, which is why I've spent forever advocating a change of shape. I don't even think he should be playing directly in front of the defenders, that's actually where Leigertwood should be (and where had his best game this season). He should I think be in midfield next to Akpan, they should be playing off each other, creating space, finding the forwards (of whom I personally think we should be playing three not four, we rely too much on wing play as well)

There's nothing wrong with a long ball if the opposition are pressing you very high because you are passing it around well (in fact that's probably the right move, by that fact they have to have a lot of players pressing high to have caused a problem). But there is no reason for that ball to be a high ball that takes forever to come down when a ball into space and at chest level and below will suffice.

It's not about having an attacking midfielder for Guthrie to give it too, there is no magic player we can buy that will make all our problems go away. The problem is the system. Have you watched our academy play? It's a similar formation but a completely different approach to the game. And much more entertaining as well (even if they have been frustrating in the cup games)


Anyway, to cut this off because i could on forever, we need a radical rethink of how we coach and approach football matches in the first team.

Bingo!! Spot on Zac. We only ever had one plan, get it to the wingers and then boom. Well that was great last year, but your Barnsley full back is not Ashley Cole or Patrick Evra. When things didn't work we replaced the wingers on the pitch with the ones from the bench. The ethos and plan was wrong to start with. We get in a passing midfielder (whatever you may think of him!) and tell him to play it to channels and to press. We get a forward in with an eye for goal who likes it passed to feet, and we play him up front on his own and lump it to him, and then label him as 'lazy', 'a failure' and 'shit' because he can't keep the ball. At the start of the season we should have at least had another idea of how to play in case Plan A did not work, something like you have stated, passing and movement. We would not have turned into Barcelona overnight but allowing Kebe and Jobi (ugh!) or McCleary to come inside and drift around to pull people around would have put the opposition on the back foot for a change. Giving us more of a chance to get players up to the forward in support the lone forward, threading balls through rather than the lump. Instead of which we continued with Plan A until Gary Neville stood up on a Monday evening pointed out everything that was wrong with our side. Did we look to create a bit of movement? No we just went to Plan A.1. Five men in midfield and isolation up front. I don't think any of us can deny that our squad is not good enough for the Premier League, but however much a fan of Brian you are, you really have to start questioning how much of the blame Brian should be taking.

[Hoop Blah]

he's done nothing of note at all. Has he controlled a game? No. Has he turned a game with his "passing game"? no. What he has done is caused trouble. And we don't need it.

He even had trouble at his wedding for christ's sake - the happiest day of your life (apparently). He's not the saviour, he's a disruptive pikey. He can cunt off.

Is this a great example of that 'supporting the team' spirit you keep harping on about?

[maffff]

He is probably our best midfielder at keeping the ball but that is absolutely it.

Absolutely.

So seen as we've spent most of the season without the fcuking ball, you'd think the penny would drop with some people a little quicker.

He can't play behind the striker. He is too lightweight to play as a central midfielder majority of the time if you wanted to let someone like Jobi play ahead in 'the hole'

If you put him in as a defensive anchor in the midfield to start play going (which seems to be what we have Carriço brought in for, in time), you'd need to have Ledge and another midfielder in infront of him anyway as play would just pass him by and with him sitting deep you'd have even less attacking impetus in the team.

The squad is not set up at all to accommodate him, we don't have attacking enough players to let him play his game and we don't have players that will find space for him.

For passing accuracy Leigertwood is our best player (that has played frequently) at 75.6%. Guthrie is 78.2% for his cameos. Is the extra 2.6%? really worth it? (I'm sure you'll all justify that it's like comparing Joe Allen to Ian Harte, Ledge passing 2ft to Jobi, Jobi passing back, whereas Guthrie can spray it 40 yards on a sixpence..... even Ledge has shown he can do that on occasions, I remember a beautiful cross to Kebe earlier in the season which set us up an assist). Ledge suffers from the same lack of appreciation James Harper did.

I've seen nothing of note, no amazing passes, no amazing set pieces, nor attacking impetus or drive, no getting stuck in, that justifies him a place in the team. All I've seen is another average player that is anonymous in our midfield showing petulance in a few games like Spurs at home when things don't start going his way. He just stops giving a f/ck and doesn't get involved.

[melonhead]

Who f*cking cares where he was.

Yes, he's had little opportunity, but he adds nothing to this team, and his extra powder puffness (even compared to our powderpuff midfield) just leaves us more exposed

He hasn't done a single thing when he has played that has even made me raise my eyebrows. Not a pass, not a cross, not a run, not a shot, not a tackle.

^^^^^^^^^^THIS!

[melonhead]

Come on, the pregnancy is a convenient excuse for not playing a player Brian can't forgive for speaking out and challenging how he does things. He's done here and will be first out the door in the summer! But I do agree we miss someone of his passing ability. We have by far the worst bunch of central midfielders in the league, and that just makes Guthrie's omission and still the omission of a now fit Carrico even more baffling.

so its yet another intermittent grudge/conspiracy.
where brian is so angry and enraged at a players conduct/attitude that he refuses to ever play him, but then plays him for a load of games,and then drops him again, and then plays him again, and everyone forgets the times he played him, and assume its a personal vendetta.when it isnt

[Sanguine]

For passing accuracy Leigertwood is our best player (that has played frequently) at 75.6%. Guthrie is 78.2% for his cameos. Is the extra 2.6%? really worth it? (I'm sure you'll all justify that it's like comparing Joe Allen to Ian Harte, Ledge passing 2ft to Jobi, Jobi passing back, whereas Guthrie can spray it 40 yards on a sixpence..... even Ledge has shown he can do that on occasions, I remember a beautiful cross to Kebe earlier in the season which set us up an assist). Ledge suffers from the same lack of appreciation James Harper did.

Well yes, you've answered your own question, Guthrie's passes have much more attacking impetus.

This is ultimately a pointless debate. We all need to get off the roundabout.

I'm just arguing that he is worth a place in the squad, as another option.

I don't buy the bullshit that there's just no way of fitting him into the team. Rubbish.

[melonhead]

Guthrie can spray it 40 yards on a sixpence

can he?


when will he do this again so i can see?

[maffff]

Well yes, you've answered your own question, Guthrie's passes have much more attacking impetus.

bollocks.

[maffff]

Guthrie can spray it 40 yards on a sixpence

can he?


when will he do this again so i can see?

According to our fans he's oxf*rd amazing dontchaknow. I'm yet to see anything of note.

[Sanguine]

Still ignoring the point. He’s worth a place in the squad.

And yes, if you haven’t seen anything of note, it’s because you’re one-eyed or biased, not because he’s been appalling. Seriously, it’s not fcuking rocket science, and it’s not just a coincidence that we got better when he was back in the side.

[maffff]

Still ignoring the point. He’s worth a place in the squad.

And yes, if you haven’t seen anything of note, it’s because you’re one-eyed or biased, not because he’s been appalling. Seriously, it’s not fcuking rocket science, and it’s not just a coincidence that we got better when he was back in the side.

I'm not ignoring. I simply disagree, I can't see where or how he fits into the squad. Personal opinions and all that jazz.

[melonhead]

Still ignoring the point. He’s worth a place in the squad.

And yes, if you haven’t seen anything of note, it’s because you’re one-eyed or biased, not because he’s been appalling. Seriously, it’s not fcuking rocket science, and it’s not just a coincidence that we got better when he was back in the side.

im keeping an open mind to that possibility.
i have watched him quite closely in games, precisely cos i was wondering what the truth was.

i guess what all this depends on is just how difficult a pregnancy it is.
for instance, if shes lost the baby,(heaven forbid) etc
we do not know this. so le5ts try not to make up another random intermittent conspiracy grudge story about it, cos it really makes no sense

[LoyalRoyalFan]

With a lineup that is taking us back to the Championship at the moment, you would think McDermott would try something different rather than picking the same under performing players over and over again.

[Millsy]

Nonsense thread.

It's laughable how we throw our toys out the pram EVERY time we get a
bad result, we kneejerk and start blaming a single selection decision
(in this case, Guthrie) or our tactics when the elephant in the room is that OUR
SQUAD IS JUST NOT GOOD ENOUGH.

It was obvious when we rather unexpectedly won the Championship, it
was obvious when we started the Prem, it was obvious in the January
transfer window and it's obvious now.   We didnt' spend enough in the
summer (a risk even I agreed with but has come back to bite us) and we
couldn't spend eough in January (but we did try).

Brian worked a miracle with the squad he had (with a little help from
Alfie) to get us up and that was down to him and his system.  Now
we're in the Prem we can't rely purely on a system so yes I suppose in a
twisted way it is because the system is not as effective because there
is only so far you can take a bunch of players, no matter how clever
your system.

My gripe is that it is being made out by people here that we have a
Premier League squad which, if only Brian would use the correct
goddamn system, would be successtul.  Or that perhaps we have decent
Premier League players, if only Brian would flipping play them, who
would save us.

BOLLOX.

We have a below average Prem squad, who punched above their weight in
the Champ and are so far punchign way way waaaaaaaaaaaay above their
weight in the Prem.   Kebe can only do so many miracles in a year
before he turns into a pumpkin.  Alfie can only gift us so many supersub goals.
Feds can only make so many heartstopping saves.  It worked to get us
to the top of the champ somehow, and it will work for a few games here
in the Prem but it ain't gonna work forever.  You start taking away
key players like the Pog and watch how things start falling apart,
completely expectedly.

Our current squad is NOT good enough.  Brian, Anton, Sir John, Hammond
could all see this hence trying to bring Ince/Gylfi here, and hence
admitting that in retrospect they shouildve spent more in teh summer.
If they can admit it why can't we?

To think that any internet pundit has any more of a clue about systems
or players than one of the best managers in the country, the genius
that is Brian, who has brought this team up, is a joke.

STOP BLAMING THE SYSTEM OR TEAM SELECTION.

IBWT

[melonhead]

Still ignoring the point. He’s worth a place in the squad.

And yes, if you haven’t seen anything of note, it’s because you’re one-eyed or biased, not because he’s been appalling. Seriously, it’s not fcuking rocket science, and it’s not just a coincidence that we got better when he was back in the side.

agree

hes worth a place.
and when hes available/fit, he gets that place

[melonhead]

With a lineup that is taking us back to the Championship at the moment, you would think McDermott would try something different rather than picking the same under performing players over and over again.

unless guthrie really is injured/taken time off to support wifey through a horrific pregnancy
i know its a crazy concept, but teh club may actually be telling us the truth

[melonhead]

Nonsense thread.

It's laughable how we throw our toys out the pram EVERY time we get a
bad result, we kneejerk and start blaming a single selection decision
(in this case, Guthrie) or our tactics when the elephant in the room is that OUR
SQUAD IS JUST NOT GOOD ENOUGH.

It was obvious when we rather unexpectedly won the Championship, it
was obvious when we started the Prem, it was obvious in the January
transfer window and it's obvious now.   We didnt' spend enough in the
summer (a risk even I agreed with but has come back to bite us) and we
couldn't spend eough in January (but we did try).

Brian worked a miracle with the squad he had (with a little help from
Alfie) to get us up and that was down to him and his system.  Now
we're in the Prem we can't rely purely on a system so yes I suppose in a
twisted way it is because the system is not as effective because there
is only so far you can take a bunch of players, no matter how clever
your system.

My gripe is that it is being made out by people here that we have a
Premier League squad which, if only Brian would use the correct
goddamn system, would be successtul.  Or that perhaps we have decent
Premier League players, if only Brian would flipping play them, who
would save us.

BOLLOX.

We have a below average Prem squad, who punched above their weight in
the Champ and are so far punchign way way waaaaaaaaaaaay above their
weight in the Prem.   Kebe can only do so many miracles in a year
before he turns into a pumpkin.  Alfie can only gift us so many supersub goals.
Feds can only make so many heartstopping saves.  It worked to get us
to the top of the champ somehow, and it will work for a few games here
in the Prem but it ain't gonna work forever.  You start taking away
key players like the Pog and watch how things start falling apart,
completely expectedly.

Our current squad is NOT good enough.  Brian, Anton, Sir John, Hammond
could all see this hence trying to bring Ince/Gylfi here, and hence
admitting that in retrospect they shouildve spent more in teh summer.
If they can admit it why can't we?

To think that any internet pundit has any more of a clue about systems
or players than one of the best managers in the country, the genius
that is Brian, who has brought this team up, is a joke.

STOP BLAMING THE SYSTEM OR TEAM SELECTION.

IBWT

massively agreed

and thanks for the beautiful poem

[Elm Park Pasty]

OK so I am guessing some people on here don't like Guthrie? ( ) I have no problem with that each to their own and all that. Personally, I am neither here nor there. I can't say I've seen anything breath-taking but as there ain't a lot around him he ain't gonna work miracles. I have no great love for him, as let's face it, he has been a bit of a tw*t on occasions this season, but Newcastle were happy to offer him another contract, and he had offers from elsewhere. This is not a useless and unwanted player. It would appear he is a Premier League player, certainly other PL clubs seem to think so. However, he came here. Brian and Nick went over to Dubai, and gave it the big up to get him to come here. I am presuming we scouted this bloke before we signed him? We knew how he played? What his strengths/weaknesses were? Presuming we did then why the hell did we buy someone not suited to how we play? If we didn't, why the hell did we sign him? Either way the blame lies at Brian and Nick's door. He didn't become poor over night when he joined us (why do I feel a cut and paste coming on for the next Pog thread?), and as for this whole idea of he should bend to the way we play (again WHY SIGN HIM??!!) then I would say for the number of you saying he is sh*t, I would say he has settled in perfectly .

He should be in the squad. He offers something different. I don't buy all this % stats on passing. It is a very one dimensional stat that tells you nothing really. So he completed 75% of his passes, how many were over distance, how many were backwards/sidewards, how many were defence splitting passes? Haven't the foggiest. Our whole tactical set up is inept and we don't change. We react rather than dictate. No team is going survive giving the opposition 60-65% of possession each week. They will just keep pinging it around until they play straight through us, while we sit back and wait for a chance to counter-attack that only comes in the last ten mins cos they are more knackered than we are.

I would like to say we are going to stay up but I am not sure we will. I am certainly not going to come on here with a huge whine fest about the weekend but Brian has to take a good look at our squad and come up with a new way of playing QUICKLY. We need to be doing something different. I am not even sure if I would keep Brian on after the season even if we stay up. You see the comments about him having learnt from his mistakes, has he? If we were to stay up who would trust Brian to spend £15,£20 or £30M in the summer, seriously? I saw it mentioned somewhere else in this thread that we can't integrate quality signings only cheap ones. So who's confident Brian will spend that money wisely?