How impressed are you with BMcD's return to the club?

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Re: How impressed are you with BMcD's return to the club?

by Hoop Blah » 15 Feb 2016 16:57

Top Flight In terms of asking for evidence that he can recreate his success with another group of players that he doesn't share history with. Stop being ridiculous. Your criteria for choosing a manager is just silly.


I'm not choosing a manager, and I even said I was quite happy with McDermott coming back as it happens.

My only point was that I'm not so sure he is a good manager who we should be pleased to have. He's had one period of success in a certain set of circumstances and his other stints in charge leave a bit of a question mark over his abilities.

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Re: How impressed are you with BMcD's return to the club?

by Top Flight » 15 Feb 2016 17:11

Hoop Blah
Top Flight In terms of asking for evidence that he can recreate his success with another group of players that he doesn't share history with. Stop being ridiculous. Your criteria for choosing a manager is just silly.


I'm not choosing a manager, and I even said I was quite happy with McDermott coming back as it happens.

My only point was that I'm not so sure he is a good manager who we should be pleased to have. He's had one period of success in a certain set of circumstances and his other stints in charge leave a bit of a question mark over his abilities.


Yes, but Hoop Blah, by saying this "McDermott has had limited success and achieved all of his success with, largely, a bunch of players who he knew inside out from his time at the club and many of whom had a great relationship with him because of that history."

You are trying to dismiss and devalue his achievements which is very unfair and disrespectful. Remember the great Brendan Rodgers had a similar history with those players and wasn't able to put a decent side together. He didn't know what tactics and systems to play and his judgement was poor persisting with players like Scott Davies who clearly wasn't good enough.

McDermott did alot of work to get those players in to the right shape. Strengthen them with the right additions to the team and get them on the right track. He added experienced players to that young group like Harte, Leigertwood, Roberts, the Georgian centre back etc. to shore them up and get the best out of his young stars like Shane Long, Karacan, Pearce etc. He knew what was wrong and why we weren't winning and he found the right solutions. He operated within very difficult limitations and got the most bang for our small buck. Remember he managed at a time when the club was in deep financial difficulty selling great players every transfer window. He did a great job.

Once we went up, the poor guy then had players thrust upon him that he may not have chosen himself for his team. Then got shown the door when things weren't working out.

McDermott is a manager that has proven to get the most value out of the hand that he has been given. He IS a fantastic manager. I don't know why you feel the need to dismiss him and devalue his past achievements. He has achieved more than nearly every Reading manager before him. I wonder what kind of job Pep Guardiola would do if he were operating within Reading FC constraints. The so called Reading way.

Remember Coppell couldn't keep us up in his second Premier league season either. When the players are not good enough they tend to get relegated. Our side was slightly weaker in the second season and we went down.

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Re: How impressed are you with BMcD's return to the club?

by Top Flight » 15 Feb 2016 17:38

When there are strikers in the Championship playing for other clubs. The likes of: Andre Gray (£9million), Jordan Rhodes (£11million), Ross McCormack (£11million), Nick Blackman (£4million), Nakhi Wells, Chris Martin, Abel Hernandez, Fernando Forestieri, Moussa Dembele, Gary Hooper, Jonathan Kodjia, Tomer Hemed, Sam Vokes, Bobby Zamora, Lasse Vibe, Chris Wood etc.....

We have to accept that our strikers Kermorgant and Vydra are good. We're lucky to have a couple of good forwards. But every other team in the Championship have also got very good strikers.

We have decent wingers, but other clubs have the likes of Tom Ince, James Henry etc...

Gunter is a good right back but Derby have Cyrus Christie who is even better.

We have Al-Habsi, but other clubs have Tom Heaton, Scott Carson, Konstantopoulos, Kuszczak, Rob Green, David Stockdale etc...

We are far from having the best team at the moment.... We have to understand that we are not the best. We don't have the best players. It will take a really good collective effort to make us competitive in this league.

Let's just trust Brian and give him the time to sort us out.

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Re: How impressed are you with BMcD's return to the club?

by Ian Royal » 15 Feb 2016 17:59

Snowball136 The side was in total free-fall when Steve Clarke left

1-1 Rotherham Away (a team who at the time were dire)
2-4 Fulham Away (A game where we were 2-0 up, then seemed to implode, a very bad morale-hurting defeat)
1-1 Brighton Home "An OK result"
2-2 Huddersfield Home
0-2 Cardiff Away
==================
??????
==================
1-3 Forest Away
0-1 QPR Home (Terrible error by Al-Habsi which must have hurt morale even more)
0-1 Preston Away
1-2 Hull Away (True we scored a great goal, but we lost again)

6 Defeats and 3 Draws

Yes, I'm aware I left out the home win against a terrible Bolton side.
Of course it matters in the stats W1 D3 L6 10-18 but 6 points from 10 games
is a 27-28 point season. (or 3 from 9 = a 15 point season)

I was as shocked as the next man. How could a side get to second place and then disintegrate so completely?

Other than beating a bad Bolton side, the only half-decent result is the 1-1 with Brighton.

When we got to second I wonder if we were in a false position because Blackman had an out-of-character purple patch and we hadn't been "sussed" by opposition managers?

==============================

I have always argued we should ignore a new manager's first few games, as it takes time to work out what is wrong, where the strengths and weaknesses are. That, for some dumb reason is frowned upon.

So be it.

We were lucky to win our first under Brian. Williams "wonder goal: was, IMO (the stupid shot, not the surprise goal) symptomatic of some of the wrongness.

Williams should never have taken on the shot, not when he could easily put an in-form striker through on goal.

Because he scores "all is forgiven" but he would have been slated had he shot over the bar. It was a stupid, pointless, selfish, anti-team shot.

But nevertheless Brian started with a win (one I would ignore.) Any single game can be counter to the trend, but had that shot gone over and we'd drawn 0-0 (or lost 1-0) it would have been a continuation of the trend established by Clarke. For me it's a false result.

We were better at Wolves, had enough chances to win, but lost again. Then lost again v Brentford, shipping two. It's only about now (after these) that you can genuinely start saying "this is down to the new manager" and even that is a bit thin. So we won 1-0 against a lowly Bristol (Blackman in the 94th minute)... Can you not see how easily Brian's first 4 could easily have been 0-0, 0-1, 1-2, 0-0?

Now he has a chance to get to grip with the team.

2-2 Huddersfield Away
1-1 Derby Away
==============
0-1 MK Dons Away (Dumb. We weren't great but we should have at least taken a draw)
==============
5-2 Huddersfield Home
1-1 Wednesday Home
4-0 Walsall Home
1-2 Ipswich Away (Where we should have shut up shop taken 1-1)
0-0 Wolves Home
0-0 Burnley Home (This is an excellent result against a top side, in form)

Take our last 6 games W2 D3 L1 11-5
Take our last 9 games W2 D5 L2 14-9

If you can't see losing two in 9 as improvement you're mental.

Meanwhile we ship out Blackman (GREAT business) offload the disruptive Sa (solid) bring in a top youngster (Norwood's replacement, maybe?) and excellent-looking Latvian striker, and an old head with Championship-winning experience (who will take six games to reach maximum sharpness).

IMO the future is quite bright. McD has got Vydra playing better, HRK playing better, Al Habsi playing better. (Williams?)

We just need to tune the improving defence and weak attack.
Keep the goals-against column nice and low and just pick up a few more goals,
not LOADS, just a few so the draws become wins, the 1-goal defeats,draws.

Plus we are giving experience to Cooper who will be a stalwart next season (or earn us 4-5 Million)

It worries me that I complete agree.

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Re: How impressed are you with BMcD's return to the club?

by Blackbag » 15 Feb 2016 18:08

Top Flight We're actually very lucky to have a manager of McDermott's track record and quality.

He is a good manager and we're fortunate to have him.

Your taking the piss now


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Re: How impressed are you with BMcD's return to the club?

by Top Flight » 15 Feb 2016 18:10

Why are you worried that you agree?

I agree as well... We are a club going through a transition. Things will be difficult and results won't be forthcoming whilst we go through that transition. But there are already signs of improvement.

We have a good manager in Brian and he will build another good team for us over the next few years.

Sean Dyche was praised on Football Focus at the weekend for the good team that he put together at Burnley and he made sure the interviewer knew that he didn't build the team over night. The first year they weren't getting results. Things were very difficult and they really struggled. He was given the time and has built a half decent side over there at Turf Moor.

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Re: How impressed are you with BMcD's return to the club?

by Top Flight » 15 Feb 2016 18:12

Blackbag
Top Flight We're actually very lucky to have a manager of McDermott's track record and quality.

He is a good manager and we're fortunate to have him.

Your taking the piss now


No. We are lucky. There are much worse managers that we could have right now.

I am really pleased that we have a manager that has taken READING into the premier league before.

You just want instant success. You don't understand that success needs to be earned and worked for.

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Re: How impressed are you with BMcD's return to the club?

by Maneki Neko » 15 Feb 2016 18:14

Hoop Blah
Maneki Neko No strikers. No defensive midfielders. No full back cover. Too many loans, too many running contract down, selling our 2 leading goal scorers, and a team full of mentally weak, physically weak, and totally inconsistent no.10s and wingers.

About covers it


Vydra, Rakels, Kermorgant, Cox - not too bad as we're effectively playing 1 up front.
Norwood, Quinn, Tshibola, Fernadez & Williams can all play in the deeper roles in the system we're playing. They were good enough when we looked so good back in September. We've also just bought another defensive midfielder in Evans too.

Inconsistent and mentally weak may well be true. The contract situation with too many players and the uncertainty around the club are, IMO, probably pretty big factors and are more a symptom of the bigger issue that seems to be hovering over the club. They're something the manager needs to handle with players (a difficult task) and it isn't evidence that the squad doesn't have enough quality within it, more the opposite if you ask me.


I kinda believe they should be good enough tbf. But to say that a mentally shot decent striker,an old player whos not played for most of the season, A player from Latvia who weve seen 20 mins of, and Cox (lol) is not too bad is just wrong.
Theyre clearly not good enough right now.

Do I believe that once rakels and Kermorgant get up to speed, along with vydra getting over being dumped after taking Watford up, and it will look very decent.
But those arent descriptions of those players NOW.

I agree Norwood can play the Qback role very well, but that isnt a defensive midfielder. Same goes for Williams, Fernandez etc.
Our defence is too leaky to do away with that cover Imo.

Tish is gr8 but also injured, and very young and inexperienced.

Quinn is gr8 and agree he could play cdm. But hes not a cdm now/yet.

Its imbalanced and patchy Imo.
Though there is quality there.

I agree, theyre good enough to be much higher, but for the last year they look exactly as good as their league position.
Its understandable though, with the mess the club has been for a while, the multiple managers, the huge player turnaround in the summer, and loss of our two best goal scorers in January.

Despite all this ive seen improvement in results, performance, Attitude and application, as well as signs of life from players id almost given up on.its just very slow progress, due to the above.

I think the players and manager are good enough to get this squad playing, and will do when rakels and Kermorgant are up to speed.

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Re: How impressed are you with BMcD's return to the club?

by No Fixed Abode » 15 Feb 2016 18:30

West Brom must be favourites to win on Saturday but the following week must be 3 point bankers at home to Rotherham and away at Charlton........if you can't get 6 points from those............


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Re: How impressed are you with BMcD's return to the club?

by Maneki Neko » 15 Feb 2016 18:36

Id settle for 3 tbf
But agreed

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Re: How impressed are you with BMcD's return to the club?

by Crowbar6753 » 15 Feb 2016 18:58

No Fixed Abode West Brom must be favourites to win on Saturday but the following week must be 3 point bankers at home to Rotherham and away at Charlton........if you can't get 6 points from those............


West Brom as favorites, maybe , just, there is only 20 places separating us and we have home advantage, and its the cup, the smaller teams always try to upset the so called big boys from the premiership. I wouldn't be surprised if we beat them. As for the following two league games, 3 points at best, these are the games we always seem to struggle with. Reckon we'll beat Rotherham and lose to Charlton, that,ll be us on 40 points and relatively safe from the drop and time to start blooding our own players for next season, Fosu, Samuels, Barrett etc...

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Re: How impressed are you with BMcD's return to the club?

by Ian Royal » 15 Feb 2016 19:52

I think defensive midfielders are overrated. Norwood makes plenty of tackles. Williams runs around a lot. Tish is solid and gets up and down the pitch, Evans seems similar. Quinn's a bustler.

I think most combinations of them'll be fine. Just as long as the TEAM works as a unit and the attack can take some pressure off by really threatening the goal and putting a few chances away consistently.

We're conceding 0.8 goals a game under McDermott, he's had four clean sheets in 10. Conceding is not our problem. Extrapolate that out and it's an exceptionally healthy 37 goals conceded in a season. That's as good as the best defensive record in the Championship last year.

Scoring is the problem, you don't solve that by getting more defensive midfielders.

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Re: How impressed are you with BMcD's return to the club?

by Hoop Blah » 15 Feb 2016 20:11

Maneki Neko I kinda believe they should be good enough tbf. But to say that a mentally shot decent striker,an old player whos not played for most of the season, A player from Latvia who weve seen 20 mins of, and Cox (lol) is not too bad is just wrong.
Theyre clearly not good enough right now.

Do I believe that once rakels and Kermorgant get up to speed, along with vydra getting over being dumped after taking Watford up, and it will look very decent.
But those arent descriptions of those players NOW.

I agree Norwood can play the Qback role very well, but that isnt a defensive midfielder. Same goes for Williams, Fernandez etc.
Our defence is too leaky to do away with that cover Imo.

Tish is gr8 but also injured, and very young and inexperienced.

Quinn is gr8 and agree he could play cdm. But hes not a cdm now/yet.

Its imbalanced and patchy Imo.
Though there is quality there.

I agree, theyre good enough to be much higher, but for the last year they look exactly as good as their league position.
Its understandable though, with the mess the club has been for a while, the multiple managers, the huge player turnaround in the summer, and loss of our two best goal scorers in January.

Despite all this ive seen improvement in results, performance, Attitude and application, as well as signs of life from players id almost given up on.its just very slow progress, due to the above.

I think the players and manager are good enough to get this squad playing, and will do when rakels and Kermorgant are up to speed.


So basically what you're saying is that the raw materials to be a competitive side in this division are there. That it's down to management and/or some other issues within the club thats stopping us get the best out of the squad.

Glad you agree...


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Re: How impressed are you with BMcD's return to the club?

by Maneki Neko » 15 Feb 2016 20:17

Hoop Blah
Maneki Neko I kinda believe they should be good enough tbf. But to say that a mentally shot decent striker,an old player whos not played for most of the season, A player from Latvia who weve seen 20 mins of, and Cox (lol) is not too bad is just wrong.
Theyre clearly not good enough right now.

Do I believe that once rakels and Kermorgant get up to speed, along with vydra getting over being dumped after taking Watford up, and it will look very decent.
But those arent descriptions of those players NOW.

I agree Norwood can play the Qback role very well, but that isnt a defensive midfielder. Same goes for Williams, Fernandez etc.
Our defence is too leaky to do away with that cover Imo.

Tish is gr8 but also injured, and very young and inexperienced.

Quinn is gr8 and agree he could play cdm. But hes not a cdm now/yet.

Its imbalanced and patchy Imo.
Though there is quality there.

I agree, theyre good enough to be much higher, but for the last year they look exactly as good as their league position.
Its understandable though, with the mess the club has been for a while, the multiple managers, the huge player turnaround in the summer, and loss of our two best goal scorers in January.

Despite all this ive seen improvement in results, performance, Attitude and application, as well as signs of life from players id almost given up on.its just very slow progress, due to the above.

I think the players and manager are good enough to get this squad playing, and will do when rakels and Kermorgant are up to speed.


So basically what you're saying is that the raw materials to be a competitive side in this division are there. That it's down to management and/or some other issues within the club thats stopping us get the best out of the squad.

Glad you agree...


Defo said I agreed in the post.

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Re: How impressed are you with BMcD's return to the club?

by Hoop Blah » 15 Feb 2016 20:24

Top Flight You are trying to dismiss and devalue his achievements which is very unfair and disrespectful. Remember the great Brendan Rodgers had a similar history with those players and wasn't able to put a decent side together. He didn't know what tactics and systems to play and his judgement was poor persisting with players like Scott Davies who clearly wasn't good enough.

McDermott did alot of work to get those players in to the right shape. Strengthen them with the right additions to the team and get them on the right track. He added experienced players to that young group like Harte, Leigertwood, Roberts, the Georgian centre back etc. to shore them up and get the best out of his young stars like Shane Long, Karacan, Pearce etc. He knew what was wrong and why we weren't winning and he found the right solutions. He operated within very difficult limitations and got the most bang for our small buck. Remember he managed at a time when the club was in deep financial difficulty selling great players every transfer window. He did a great job.

Once we went up, the poor guy then had players thrust upon him that he may not have chosen himself for his team. Then got shown the door when things weren't working out.

McDermott is a manager that has proven to get the most value out of the hand that he has been given. He IS a fantastic manager. I don't know why you feel the need to dismiss him and devalue his past achievements. He has achieved more than nearly every Reading manager before him. I wonder what kind of job Pep Guardiola would do if he were operating within Reading FC constraints. The so called Reading way.

Remember Coppell couldn't keep us up in his second Premier league season either. When the players are not good enough they tend to get relegated. Our side was slightly weaker in the second season and we went down.


I'm not dismissing his success, I'm saying that his track record outside of that two seasons is very mixed and I'm not sure there is a lot of evidence that he's a manager we should feel so lucky to have.

Rodgers didn't have the relationship with the core of the squad that McDermott had. It was 5 or 6 years since he'd left the club and very few of the squad were players he'd had much involvement with. He didn't even persist with Davies as you suggest. He gave him 2 or 3 starts after a good showing in pre-season to see if he could make the jump up. He couldn't and he ditched him pretty sharpish.

As for the Premier League run under McDermott, well he may well have had players thrust upon him and they may well have not been quite up to it as a group but he mis-managed what he had and struggled with the integration and utilisation of the talent he had. He's going to have to improve at that side of it if he's going to stay here because the current owners are going to give him the odd player he hasn't asked for too. As he himself has said, it's part and parcel of the job here and at many other clubs.

I'm not trying to belittle McDermott, I'm just being realistic about his record and potential to succeed here again.

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Re: How impressed are you with BMcD's return to the club?

by SCIAG » 15 Feb 2016 21:22

Top Flight You are trying to dismiss and devalue his achievements which is very unfair and disrespectful. Remember the great Brendan Rodgers had a similar history with those players and wasn't able to put a decent side together. He didn't know what tactics and systems to play and his judgement was poor persisting with players like Scott Davies who clearly wasn't good enough.

Scott Davies was dropped after three matches and only made one further appearance. We were bereft of options at the time. Rodgers did frequently overlook Kebe, Mills and Long for the likes of young HRK, old Ingimarsson and Rasiak.

Rodgers also didn't have nearly as extensive a history with the players. He'd coached Pearce and Henry, and he'd managed McAnuff (and Rasiak?), but McDermott had managed half the team in the reserves, scouted most of the players before we signed them, and Gibbs had been coaching them daily for four years.

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Re: How impressed are you with BMcD's return to the club?

by Lower West » 15 Feb 2016 22:36

Ian Royal I think defensive midfielders are overrated.


I've don't recall ever seeing a successful team that doesn't have at least one in the side.

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Re: How impressed are you with BMcD's return to the club?

by Maneki Neko » 15 Feb 2016 22:38

Lower West
Ian Royal I think defensive midfielders are overrated.


I've don't recall ever seeing a successful team that doesn't have at least one in the side.

05/06?

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Re: How impressed are you with BMcD's return to the club?

by Lower West » 15 Feb 2016 23:24

Maneki Neko
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Ian Royal I think defensive midfielders are overrated.


I've don't recall ever seeing a successful team that doesn't have at least one in the side.

05/06?


Sidwell was better defensively than either Norwood or Williams. Ran box to box as well. Harper also covered the ground well. Not a great tackler but got between ball and goal.

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Re: How impressed are you with BMcD's return to the club?

by Ian Royal » 15 Feb 2016 23:27

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Maneki Neko
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I've don't recall ever seeing a successful team that doesn't have at least one in the side.

05/06?


Sidwell was better defensively than either Norwood or Williams. Ran box to box as well. Harper also covered the ground well. Not a great tackler but got between ball and goal.

Precisely. Good alround midfielders, neither a defensive specialist. Neither concerned primarily with defence.

Thanks for proving my point.

Having good defensive qualities as a midfielder doesn't automatically make you a defensive midfielder.

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