BFTG Villa

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Snowflake Royal
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Re: BFTG Villa

by Snowflake Royal » 04 Feb 2019 22:31

Nameless
muirinho
Nameless

THe footage I’ve seen shows itdifferently.
Clash occurs, ref gives ‘no foul’ signal then stops play. Mings may have been waving as the ref signalled no foul but there was no delay in stopping the game. Possibly play a bit after the ref blew making it look like he played on.


Didn't seem like that at the time, but fair enough, entirely possible I wouldn't have heard the whistle over the howls of protest.

Either way, it makes no difference to us really - we've played Villa now, we'd want them to have their strongest teams when playing our rivals.



I had a picture in my mind of the ref turning and chasing play back upfield oblivious to the injury, but it’s clear that it didn't happen Like that. I find it odd that my heat of the moment take of the situation was wrong, there is a first time for everything though.

The old human eye witness is the least reliable evidence factor.

Have you seen the experiment where you're asked to count the number of times the ball bounces with some people playing basketball? One of my fav examples.

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Re: BFTG Villa

by Nameless » 04 Feb 2019 22:37

Hound It is an odd one all round - like as mentioned above, if the ref had clearly seen it, why didn’t he rush over to check someone who had (accidentally) had their head stamped on was ok?
r


For goodness sake, if you’ve not watched the relevant footage don’t post obviously incorrect statements !

There is footage credited to SkyBet on YouTube that comes up straightaway if you Google Mings Oliveira
There is other footage which is a closer up shot in which you can’t see the referee but the one I’ve looked out has a wider field.
It clearly shows the following sequence
1. Mings and Oliveira come into contact
2. Straight away the referee makes the ‘no foul’ signal
3. Straight afterwards the referee blows his whistle to stop play
4. Straight away the referee goes to Oliveira
5. Straight away the referee signals for medical help

This takes a few seconds, the referee is focused on what has happened and the result throughout
I disagree with his assessment that it was just an accident but other than that he reacted promptly and correctly in seeing a Oliveira was hurt and needed assistance.
Basing comments on any other sequence of events helps no one.

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Re: BFTG Villa

by Nameless » 04 Feb 2019 22:39

Snowflake Royal
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muirinho
Didn't seem like that at the time, but fair enough, entirely possible I wouldn't have heard the whistle over the howls of protest.

Either way, it makes no difference to us really - we've played Villa now, we'd want them to have their strongest teams when playing our rivals.



I had a picture in my mind of the ref turning and chasing play back upfield oblivious to the injury, but it’s clear that it didn't happen Like that. I find it odd that my heat of the moment take of the situation was wrong, there is a first time for everything though.

The old human eye witness is the least reliable evidence factor.

Have you seen the experiment where you're asked to count the number of times the ball bounces with some people playing basketball? One of my fav examples.


Seen it ?
I’ve used it when teaching !
When you know what is going on you can’t believe you missed it...

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Re: BFTG Villa

by Snowflake Royal » 04 Feb 2019 22:45

Hound It is an odd one all round - like as mentioned above, if the ref had clearly seen it, why didn’t he rush over to check someone who had (accidentally) had their head stamped on was ok?

It’s all a bit arse covering. Think as mentioned by another poster, if it had gone before a panel and they decided they couldn’t ban him as they couldn’t prove it was deliberate - fair enough. But the ref saw it, so they can’t review? Clearly he didn’t see it that well...

Still it’s done now. Likelihood is Nelson will be back without missing more than a game or so and Mongs will carry on knowing that he has been very lucky a) not to end someone’s career and b) not to have virtually ended his own career

It's well established that the video review is only for incidents the referee didn't see. If he saw it and made a judgement call on the pitch they won't override the ref's authority and second judge his decision based on factors he couldn't possibly have had access to.

It's the slippery slope argument that if you look at one incident the ref saw but may have got wrong you'd be looking at half a dozen a game at least.

As I've said, I think anyone who thinks they can say it definitely wasn't an unfortunate accident is lacking objectivity. If the ref had taken a look at the footage after and said it looks very different to what he thought he saw this might end differently. But the element of doubt is just too large to be issuing a serious sanction and finding Mings guilty. Let's remember the principle of law is innocent until proven guilty, there's just not enough to leave more than a nasty suspicion.

And the incident has to be judged on it's merits. Previous offences are taken account of in setting the level of sanction, not determining guilt.

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Re: BFTG Villa

by The Green Programme » 04 Feb 2019 23:26

Some of the nonsense on here about intent and ‘a lack of certainty as to whether he intended to put Oliveira in hospital and the significance or otherwise of past events are irrelevant; it is the principle that matters here.

Intent is not the issue; if a player’s body is out of control and he then endangers an opponent; it’s an offence.

Mane; against City last season; watching the ball; going for the ball; no intent to injure anyone; red card and a suspension because his body was out of control and he injured his opponent.

The behaviour of both the FA and the referee is a shambolic nonsense.

The man put our striker in hospital by stamping on his face; nowhere near the ball and could have chosen not to do so; could’ve taken evasive action and chose not to.

The reason why he may not be held accountable is because the referee claims to have seen it and took no action.

The reason why he may not be held accountable is because of a technical balls up.

And for those whose apathy is so acute that they choose to write paragraphs of nonsense on this forum in an attempt to encourage everyone to do nothing; including NOT signing a petition or.NOT writing in support of some kind of review of the decision; I consider such an attitude as being totally inexplicable.

A question for the apathetic; if having our striker’s face stamped on resulting in him receiving serious facial injuries requiring surgery isn’t enough to motivate the pursuit of justice and accountability; what is?

There’s been hardly any TV coverage and even our own iFollow highlights had no mention of it.

Mings denied intention on the last occasion he stamped on an opponents head and his declared (non) intention appeared to have little or no influence on the disciplinary outcome on that occasion.

It is the technicality that is preventing accountability here and it is that madness which needs to be overturned by the FA.


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Re: BFTG Villa

by Hound » 05 Feb 2019 06:24

Nameless
Hound It is an odd one all round - like as mentioned above, if the ref had clearly seen it, why didn’t he rush over to check someone who had (accidentally) had their head stamped on was ok?
r


For goodness sake, if you’ve not watched the relevant footage don’t post obviously incorrect statements !

There is footage credited to SkyBet on YouTube that comes up straightaway if you Google Mings Oliveira
There is other footage which is a closer up shot in which you can’t see the referee but the one I’ve looked out has a wider field.
It clearly shows the following sequence
1. Mings and Oliveira come into contact
2. Straight away the referee makes the ‘no foul’ signal
3. Straight afterwards the referee blows his whistle to stop play
4. Straight away the referee goes to Oliveira
5. Straight away the referee signals for medical help

This takes a few seconds, the referee is focused on what has happened and the result throughout
I disagree with his assessment that it was just an accident but other than that he reacted promptly and correctly in seeing a Oliveira was hurt and needed assistance.
Basing comments on any other sequence of events helps no one.


Totally disagree. The ref watches the ball and is more interested in posturing before Mings gets his attention

In fact diubt he’d even have gone over if mings hadn’t been waving his arms about

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Re: BFTG Villa

by Nameless » 05 Feb 2019 07:43

There’s no point disagreeing, the evidence is there and plain to see !
The video shows that it all happened very quickly, the ref doesn’t look away from the incident, whilst Mings does wave his arm there’s is no evidence that the ref isn’t immediately aware of the injury (I suspect Mings is more aware of exactly how serious it is because he’s closer and would have felt the squelch of his studs piercing Oliveira’s face)
I can understand how people,got the wrong impression at the time, I can understand how people interpret the images of the contact differently but the reaction of the ref is unambiguous.

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Re: BFTG Villa

by Hound » 05 Feb 2019 07:48

Ok mate, still disagree - for me the ref didn’t react as I’d expect considering the incident - but let’s leave it there

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Re: BFTG Villa

by Nameless » 05 Feb 2019 08:03

Goodness only knows how you expect him to react....


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Re: BFTG Villa

by Coppells Lost Coat » 05 Feb 2019 09:05

Its not gunna change the outcome, we aren't gunna get more points or anything, just a bit of clarification if it gets reviewed.

Issue I have here is, when someone gets as seriously hurt as Oliveria did, a review of how it happened on the pitch should be normal.
I understand the reasoning for not reviewing the incident but he could have lost his eye, what happens if next week Mings does something similar and injures someone again. The referees have a responsibility to ensure the safety of the players.

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Re: BFTG Villa

by Hound » 05 Feb 2019 09:12

Nameless Goodness only knows how you expect him to react....


like I said, rather than posturing and tracking the ball, immediately go over to see him.

He reacted very correctly, just not how I'd expect to see someone react if they'd seen a 14 stone lump land on someones face

Anyway dull argument. Remember its just an opinion, as is yours.

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Re: BFTG Villa

by Sutekh » 05 Feb 2019 09:26


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Re: BFTG Villa

by Stranded » 05 Feb 2019 09:34

Hound
Nameless
Hound It is an odd one all round - like as mentioned above, if the ref had clearly seen it, why didn’t he rush over to check someone who had (accidentally) had their head stamped on was ok?
r


For goodness sake, if you’ve not watched the relevant footage don’t post obviously incorrect statements !

There is footage credited to SkyBet on YouTube that comes up straightaway if you Google Mings Oliveira
There is other footage which is a closer up shot in which you can’t see the referee but the one I’ve looked out has a wider field.
It clearly shows the following sequence
1. Mings and Oliveira come into contact
2. Straight away the referee makes the ‘no foul’ signal
3. Straight afterwards the referee blows his whistle to stop play
4. Straight away the referee goes to Oliveira
5. Straight away the referee signals for medical help

This takes a few seconds, the referee is focused on what has happened and the result throughout
I disagree with his assessment that it was just an accident but other than that he reacted promptly and correctly in seeing a Oliveira was hurt and needed assistance.
Basing comments on any other sequence of events helps no one.


Totally disagree. The ref watches the ball and is more interested in posturing before Mings gets his attention

In fact diubt he’d even have gone over if mings hadn’t been waving his arms about


It's here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSgiightjC0

Boot hits head at 3 seconds, waves no foul at 4 secs - Oliveria is getting up, so at first it won't have appeared that he was badly hurt. Mins turns immediately at 5 secs, ref look down and blows whistle at 6 seconds - ref is with Oliveria at 8 secs and waving for assistance by 10 seconds.

At 4 seconds, you can also see him appear on screen and is looking directly at where the collision has occured. So no doubt, he saw it and given his very clear signal thought it was an accident and no foul.

I'm not sure what else the ref could have done differently considering his clear view it was not a foul but an accident.

The VAR argument is a misnomer as it is if in use, it would not be used in this instance anyway. VAR can only overturn a decision anyway if a clear error has been made - given the arguments raging still as to if he meant it or not - this just shows that the video is inconclusive and therefore the on field call should be respected.

Mings is being judged to have done it on purpose mainly because he has previous (ask yourself if it had been Elphick, would you be so quick to say he definitely meant it) but I simply cannot see enough here to say he did it on purpose, so think it is best to move on, hope Oliveria is back sooner rather than later and that his injuries heal well.
Last edited by Stranded on 05 Feb 2019 09:38, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: BFTG Villa

by Millsy » 05 Feb 2019 09:35

Mings needs to face action.

I disagree with anyone who says it was an accident.

I disagree with anyone who says it was intentional.

Those are not the only two options, they are the extremes and they are both unlikely.

What IS likely is this is a man who plays very dangerously and does not think about what he is doing, does not think one step ahead. This is the second time he has done something like this and he is clearly a reckless player who goes in hard and doesn't give a toss about (or is too thick to imagine) what may happen.

The equivalent of a driver driving his BMW erratically in the snow, not illegally just not paying much attention and going too fast for the circumstances because he's a dick and knocking someone over. He won't have done it deliberately, but that doesn't make it an automatic accident. He'd be done for dangerous driving.

Mings didn't do it deliberately and he feels gutted of course. It was also not just a freak accident. He plays dangerously. This is the second time and this thing needs to be stamped out.

I hope he gets hell from fans for the rest of his career.

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Re: BFTG Villa

by CountryRoyal » 05 Feb 2019 09:42

2 world wars, 1 world cup Mings needs to face action.

I disagree with anyone who says it was an accident.

I disagree with anyone who says it was intentional.

Those are not the only two options, they are the extremes and they are both unlikely.

What IS likely is this is a man who plays very dangerously and does not think about what he is doing, does not think one step ahead. This is the second time he has done something like this and he is clearly a reckless player who goes in hard and doesn't give a toss about (or is too thick to imagine) what may happen.

The equivalent of a driver driving his BMW erratically in the snow, not illegally just not paying much attention and going too fast for the circumstances because he's a dick and knocking someone over. He won't have done it deliberately, but that doesn't make it an automatic accident. He'd be done for dangerous driving.

Mings didn't do it deliberately and he feels gutted of course. It was also not just a freak accident. He plays dangerously. This is the second time and this thing needs to be stamped out.

I hope he gets hell from fans for the rest of his career.


He literally looks down and then plants his foot down in an unnatural position to purposely make contact with his head.

To say it was unintentional is an insult to common sense.

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Re: BFTG Villa

by Maneki Neko » 05 Feb 2019 09:45

:roll:

"literally"

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Re: BFTG Villa

by Coppells Lost Coat » 05 Feb 2019 09:50

CountryRoyal
2 world wars, 1 world cup Mings needs to face action.

I disagree with anyone who says it was an accident.

I disagree with anyone who says it was intentional.

Those are not the only two options, they are the extremes and they are both unlikely.

What IS likely is this is a man who plays very dangerously and does not think about what he is doing, does not think one step ahead. This is the second time he has done something like this and he is clearly a reckless player who goes in hard and doesn't give a toss about (or is too thick to imagine) what may happen.

The equivalent of a driver driving his BMW erratically in the snow, not illegally just not paying much attention and going too fast for the circumstances because he's a dick and knocking someone over. He won't have done it deliberately, but that doesn't make it an automatic accident. He'd be done for dangerous driving.

Mings didn't do it deliberately and he feels gutted of course. It was also not just a freak accident. He plays dangerously. This is the second time and this thing needs to be stamped out.

I hope he gets hell from fans for the rest of his career.


He literally looks down and then plants his foot down in an unnatural position to purposely make contact with his head.

To say it was unintentional is an insult to common sense.


IMO Oliveria head was in his foots path, Mings knows his heads there, plants his foot on his head and once he sees the damage instantly regrets it. He makes zero effort to avoid the stamp, normal humans avoid that action.
He had a split second to either leave his boot in or stumble past him, he chose to be the dirty oxf*rd and got away with it.

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Re: BFTG Villa

by Old Man Andrews » 05 Feb 2019 09:51

2 world wars, 1 world cup
I hope he gets hell from fans for the rest of his career.


He won't "get hell". It will all be forgotten about in about a weeks time by anyone who isn't a Reading supporter.

The FA are a victim of their own rules in this instances, they have essentially backed themselves into a corner where they can't interrogate match officials properly because as long as the referee sees something and takes no action then it is currently the end of the story. I feel that rule needs to change and major match incidents should be reviewed in every single EFL game. Make it easier for the refs by making a new rule surrounding them being unsure or in need of review. Instead of giving a yellow or red card in game the referee can write on his match report that goes to the FA every sunday that a certain incident in a game is worth reviewing because he/she is unsure. Modern technology the way it is the FA and match official can sit down over Skype and discuss the incident study it 100 times over if they need to and come up with a definitive answer. I f*cking hate rugby but I believe they have a similar thing in place for their officials, might be worth trialling in footballperhaps.
There is a fear amongst referees to say the words "I don't know" or "I didn't see it, sorry". This comes from the FA and the rules set the way they are.

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Re: BFTG Villa

by Nameless » 05 Feb 2019 10:09

I’m a big rugby fan. I’m also a big football fan !
Rugby does a lot of things so much better than football.
They have a citing process where an independent official can review anything that happens in a game and flag it up for investigation. There is no element of under mining the officials, it’s about surfing the right answer is arrived at. There are some situations that it almost impossible for the match official to judge accurately in real time. They may not have a clear view, there might be lots of stuff going on, they may just make a mistake. The rugby process means it’s rare for serious foul play not to be picked up and dealt with.
Not sure football culture would allow it to happen, we’re already seeing problems with VAR and the tv pundits make it worse plus there is no tradition of respecting officials or actually accepting they are human and make honest mistakes/
In the Scotland Italy rugby at the weekend the ref made a huge error, disallowed a brilliant try because he wrongly thought there had been illegal blocking. Afterwards he held his hand up and said he had called it wrong, the Scottish player involved simply sAid that he was disappointed not to get the try but credited the ref for accepting he had got it wrong. No major outcry, imagine the fuss of it happens in football (actually no need to imagine, we see it every week !)

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Re: BFTG Villa

by Millsy » 05 Feb 2019 10:22

Nameless I’m a big rugby fan. I’m also a big football fan !
Rugby does a lot of things so much better than football.


Rugby is shit for so many reasons, but I completely agree rugby is years ahead of football in many respects.

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