BFTG - HULL CITY (AWAY)

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Re: BFTG - HULL CITY (AWAY)

by Zip » 11 Aug 2019 19:30

URZZZZ Yiadom has had two really poor games so far. Could only imagine how much longer this thread would be if Gunter has put in two similar performances...

I wonder who Gomes fancies as second choice RB between Howe, Watson and Gunter. Obviously Gunter is still here, but he seemed to fancy Howe quite a bit in pre season


As Gunts is still at the club I don’t see why Gomes should continue to exclude him. Nor McCleary. However GMac will struggle to make the squad.

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Re: BFTG - HULL CITY (AWAY)

by SCIAG » 11 Aug 2019 20:22

Don't think we should select anyone who we want to sell while the European transfer market is still open. We don't want Gunter getting injured and being stuck with him until January. Plus it would be better to give the game time to one of the young players.

(I would, fwiw, be happy to keep Gunter around - but if we want to get rid of him then let's act on the assumption he's going until it's clear he's definitely not)

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Re: BFTG - HULL CITY (AWAY)

by Zip » 11 Aug 2019 20:35

SCIAG Don't think we should select anyone who we want to sell while the European transfer market is still open. We don't want Gunter getting injured and being stuck with him until January. Plus it would be better to give the game time to one of the young players.

(I would, fwiw, be happy to keep Gunter around - but if we want to get rid of him then let's act on the assumption he's going until it's clear he's definitely not)


Yes agreed but think it likely he will now stay until at least January as I doubt be will go abroad. Strange we didn’t accept loan bids for him on deadline day.

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Re: BFTG - HULL CITY (AWAY)

by URZZZZ » 11 Aug 2019 20:47

2 world wars, 1 world cup TLDR: brilliant performance second half should have won. Crossbar, post, ungiven penalty, dirty northern b******ds tripping us every 2 mins and a noob ref who was just gutless. Lost it thanks to awful keeping and defence.

Brave scores, none of this keeping it safe 5-7 stuff:

Virginia 0 because cost us a point at least.

Yiadom 4 first half. 9 second half.

Moore 5 always found him overrated. Cost us last game. Was nowhere for second goal this game.

Miazga. Don't care. 5? Part of a shit defence.

Richards 9. Yes 9. Brilliant stuff. Months back I asked that he never plays for Reading again. All credit to the barber as his haircut seems to have transformed him. Brilliant defending brilliant with the ball.

Boye 7. Difficult one. If he's meant to be a left winger he confuses me. A lot of our first half attacks came through him though when more central. A very good footballer clearly.

Swift. When briefly on the left wing 9. Otherwise 5-6.

Pele. 5. Confusing player. Seemed to not be bothered at all several times. But he clearly has some ability. Not a great debut performance but may do better at some point if he gives a sh*t. Reminds me of Drenthe.

Rino. 6. Good old rino battled well enough as usual. Can't fault him.

Jaoao 10. What? 10? Doesn't that mean he had to have cured cancer and climate change and brought world peace in addition to scoring 10 goals?? No this is a football match and he shone out like a shining beacon of brilliance. Before his goal I was set for giving him a 9. That just topped off an incredible performance. We've been crying out for a danger man like this for years. If he can be as hungry and consistent he will be one of our best ever signings.

Meite. 7. Battled hard, did some great stuff. Seemed to be part of a lot of good stuff we did when we were ripping them to shreds for much of the 2nd half. Maybe biased cos I like him.

Adam - 1. Shit corners shit dead balls. Not sure what is the point of him.

Puskas. 6. Missed a sitter. Crossbar from 12nanometers out. But looks very very dangerous. I can see him scoring a bunch for us for sure.

Ref 0. How the **** he missed that penalty I don't know. Where the **** is VAR. It's 2019 FFS. Let the animals butcher us all game with only a yellow or two. They fouled us 23 times? Ridiculous.

Gomes. 5. 2 games 2 defeats. Swift brilliant on the left, we get a goal then he changes it. Still a phenomenal attacking display second half and a draw would be fair so he clearly did something right. I worry that a couple more shit results and questions might be asked. Interesting what he does about our keeper situation. Our defensive unit is shit. Poor keeper, no confidence. Moore having back to back poor games. Perhaps we should just be attacking every game as we look a different team when we do.

Overall feeling.... Actually not too disheartened. This team can gel and terrorise other teams if we sort out our defensive unit.


Good write up but the Virginia comment is absolute nonsense. Didn’t cost us a point at all. We may still have lost without that mistake. Yes it was a bad error and he was poor yesterday but to pin the defeat on one person is strange. If anyone cost us a point it was Puscas missing a sitter

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Re: BFTG - HULL CITY (AWAY)

by 2 world wars, 1 world cup » 11 Aug 2019 23:27

URZZZZ
2 world wars, 1 world cup TLDR: brilliant performance second half should have won. Crossbar, post, ungiven penalty, dirty northern b******ds tripping us every 2 mins and a noob ref who was just gutless. Lost it thanks to awful keeping and defence.

Brave scores, none of this keeping it safe 5-7 stuff:

Virginia 0 because cost us a point at least.

Yiadom 4 first half. 9 second half.

Moore 5 always found him overrated. Cost us last game. Was nowhere for second goal this game.

Miazga. Don't care. 5? Part of a shit defence.

Richards 9. Yes 9. Brilliant stuff. Months back I asked that he never plays for Reading again. All credit to the barber as his haircut seems to have transformed him. Brilliant defending brilliant with the ball.

Boye 7. Difficult one. If he's meant to be a left winger he confuses me. A lot of our first half attacks came through him though when more central. A very good footballer clearly.

Swift. When briefly on the left wing 9. Otherwise 5-6.

Pele. 5. Confusing player. Seemed to not be bothered at all several times. But he clearly has some ability. Not a great debut performance but may do better at some point if he gives a sh*t. Reminds me of Drenthe.

Rino. 6. Good old rino battled well enough as usual. Can't fault him.

Jaoao 10. What? 10? Doesn't that mean he had to have cured cancer and climate change and brought world peace in addition to scoring 10 goals?? No this is a football match and he shone out like a shining beacon of brilliance. Before his goal I was set for giving him a 9. That just topped off an incredible performance. We've been crying out for a danger man like this for years. If he can be as hungry and consistent he will be one of our best ever signings.

Meite. 7. Battled hard, did some great stuff. Seemed to be part of a lot of good stuff we did when we were ripping them to shreds for much of the 2nd half. Maybe biased cos I like him.

Adam - 1. Shit corners shit dead balls. Not sure what is the point of him.

Puskas. 6. Missed a sitter. Crossbar from 12nanometers out. But looks very very dangerous. I can see him scoring a bunch for us for sure.

Ref 0. How the **** he missed that penalty I don't know. Where the **** is VAR. It's 2019 FFS. Let the animals butcher us all game with only a yellow or two. They fouled us 23 times? Ridiculous.

Gomes. 5. 2 games 2 defeats. Swift brilliant on the left, we get a goal then he changes it. Still a phenomenal attacking display second half and a draw would be fair so he clearly did something right. I worry that a couple more shit results and questions might be asked. Interesting what he does about our keeper situation. Our defensive unit is shit. Poor keeper, no confidence. Moore having back to back poor games. Perhaps we should just be attacking every game as we look a different team when we do.

Overall feeling.... Actually not too disheartened. This team can gel and terrorise other teams if we sort out our defensive unit.


Good write up but the Virginia comment is absolute nonsense. Didn’t cost us a point at all. We may still have lost without that mistake. Yes it was a bad error and he was poor yesterday but to pin the defeat on one person is strange. If anyone cost us a point it was Puscas missing a sitter



I hear you. Most blame him for the first goal that's all and they won by one goal. You're right though strikers never seem to attract the same blame. It's just the unfortunate thing about being a keeper. Make an error and you cost the team. A striker misses a sitter and that's fine. He scores and he's a hero.


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Re: BFTG - HULL CITY (AWAY)

by Snowflake Royal » 11 Aug 2019 23:32

I'd expect a keeper to make that save properly more often than I expect a striker to score that goal.

Save, pretty much 10 out of 10
Goal, 8 or 9 out of 10 max.

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Re: BFTG - HULL CITY (AWAY)

by NewCorkSeth » 12 Aug 2019 08:11

Wouldn't it be relatively normal to expect your keeper to make more saves then a striker to score goals? I mean a hat trick is rare but a keeper making 3+ saves is pretty normal. So when a keeper drops the proverbial ball it stands out all the more as it is so uncommon. Whereas strikers miss every game.

I always think of Lukaku at Utd. Their fans butchered him for his performances but he scored 42 goals in 96 games. He missed a few sitters but that kinda scoring rate at that level? Insanely good. Probably only behind Kane, Aubameyang, Salah and Aguero (I didnt check this) for the last 2 seasons. And only one of those spent those 2 seasons in a mess of a team like Lukaku did.

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Re: BFTG - HULL CITY (AWAY)

by Snowflake Royal » 12 Aug 2019 08:27

Yes I'd expect a keeper to save a far higher proportion of shots on target than a striker scores from all shots taken.

Not saying a keeper's job is easy or simple, mind.

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Re: BFTG - HULL CITY (AWAY)

by NewCorkSeth » 12 Aug 2019 08:35

Snowflake Royal Yes I'd expect a keeper to save a far higher proportion of shots on target than a striker scores from all shots taken.

Not saying a keeper's job is easy or simple, mind.

Probably the most difficult to be fair.


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Re: BFTG - HULL CITY (AWAY)

by 2 world wars, 1 world cup » 12 Aug 2019 09:06

Snowflake Royal Yes I'd expect a keeper to save a far higher proportion of shots on target than a striker scores from all shots taken.

Not saying a keeper's job is easy or simple, mind.


I agree Ian, I think you've succinctly beautifully explained what I'm going to ramble on about for the next paragraph.

A keeper is asked to do something different from the rest of the team, especially attackers. A keeper earns his money for being reliable, a striker almost quite the opposite - can be unpredictable as long as he causes havoc and scores *some* goals. The latter are asked to ping the ball around and create chances and try to get the ball in the back of the net. More often than not, the shots won't result in goals but some of them will. Even in situations where you'd expect a goal to be scored like Puscas you can reasonably argue he did well to get into that position in the first place, shake off his defender, contribute to play such that the attack came about in the first place etc etc. I might have scored that Puscas chance but I sure as hell wouldn't have gotten myself into that position. There are sooo many variables with all the circumstances that get to an attacking position like that, in the blinking of an eye. If strikers were judged as "costing" games for sitters despite great attacking play, getting into great positions and then just missing out every now and then, they'd be insane to even try. I'd just stand around and do bugger all. We don't want that from our strikers though. A keeper, on the other hand, has the privilege of being in just one position, and having pretty much one main job. BUT he needs to do it well and RELIABLY. Cock that up and noone is going to say "ah well at least he got himself in the position of being between the sticks" etc. You are only responsible really for a few square metres of pitch. Yoru job is to stop shots going in and there are some basics that absolutely have to be nailed like covering the near post, not letting the ball slip underneath you, not passing it out to the opposition, etc etc As you say those are 10/10 expectations. Yes of course there are other things a keeper can do that would be above and beyond standard expectations (liek penalty saves, great saves etc) and noone would say a keeper costs the game for those things but the basics are basics.

As you succinctly say when you fail at a 10/10 expectation that is a "cost". When you mess up an 8/10 chance, it's a "it would've been nice but try better next time."

WHich is why I stand by Virginia costing us a point, harsh as that may be.

Isn't it said an outstanding keeper is worth 5-6points per season or something like that? I'd say a poor/young/developing keeper (someone who makes these crucial howlers) costs a team almost the same.

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Re: BFTG - HULL CITY (AWAY)

by NewCorkSeth » 12 Aug 2019 09:16

2 world wars, 1 world cup
Snowflake Royal Yes I'd expect a keeper to save a far higher proportion of shots on target than a striker scores from all shots taken.

Not saying a keeper's job is easy or simple, mind.


I agree Ian, I think you've succinctly beautifully explained what I'm going to ramble on about for the next paragraph.

A keeper is asked to do something different from the rest of the team, especially attackers. A keeper earns his money for being reliable, a striker almost quite the opposite - can be unpredictable as long as he causes havoc and scores *some* goals. The latter are asked to ping the ball around and create chances and try to get the ball in the back of the net. More often than not, the shots won't result in goals but some of them will. Even in situations where you'd expect a goal to be scored like Puscas you can reasonably argue he did well to get into that position in the first place, shake off his defender, contribute to play such that the attack came about in the first place etc etc. I might have scored that Puscas chance but I sure as hell wouldn't have gotten myself into that position. There are sooo many variables with all the circumstances that get to an attacking position like that, in the blinking of an eye. If strikers were judged as "costing" games for sitters despite great attacking play, getting into great positions and then just missing out every now and then, they'd be insane to even try. I'd just stand around and do bugger all. We don't want that from our strikers though. A keeper, on the other hand, has the privilege of being in just one position, and having pretty much one main job. BUT he needs to do it well and RELIABLY. Cock that up and noone is going to say "ah well at least he got himself in the position of being between the sticks" etc. You are only responsible really for a few square metres of pitch. Yoru job is to stop shots going in and there are some basics that absolutely have to be nailed like covering the near post, not letting the ball slip underneath you, not passing it out to the opposition, etc etc As you say those are 10/10 expectations. Yes of course there are other things a keeper can do that would be above and beyond standard expectations (liek penalty saves, great saves etc) and noone would say a keeper costs the game for those things but the basics are basics.

As you succinctly say when you fail at a 10/10 expectation that is a "cost". When you mess up an 8/10 chance, it's a "it would've been nice but try better next time."

WHich is why I stand by Virginia costing us a point, harsh as that may be.

Isn't it said an outstanding keeper is worth 5-6points per season or something like that? I'd say a poor/young/developing keeper (someone who makes these crucial howlers) costs a team almost the same.

Its like when Cech moved to Arsenal Rio Ferdinand (I think) said he was worth 6 points a season. I dont think he turned out to be but the point is sensible. A keeper capable of doing their job reliably week in week out is worth a lot of points. Al-Habsi was worth a fair few points for example. His extraordinary saves were valuable. Martinez too. Emi was probably worth more than 6 points with the stability he brought to the role but we didnt get him for a full season.

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Re: BFTG - HULL CITY (AWAY)

by 2 world wars, 1 world cup » 12 Aug 2019 09:29

NewCorkSeth
2 world wars, 1 world cup
Snowflake Royal Yes I'd expect a keeper to save a far higher proportion of shots on target than a striker scores from all shots taken.

Not saying a keeper's job is easy or simple, mind.


I agree Ian, I think you've succinctly beautifully explained what I'm going to ramble on about for the next paragraph.

A keeper is asked to do something different from the rest of the team, especially attackers. A keeper earns his money for being reliable, a striker almost quite the opposite - can be unpredictable as long as he causes havoc and scores *some* goals. The latter are asked to ping the ball around and create chances and try to get the ball in the back of the net. More often than not, the shots won't result in goals but some of them will. Even in situations where you'd expect a goal to be scored like Puscas you can reasonably argue he did well to get into that position in the first place, shake off his defender, contribute to play such that the attack came about in the first place etc etc. I might have scored that Puscas chance but I sure as hell wouldn't have gotten myself into that position. There are sooo many variables with all the circumstances that get to an attacking position like that, in the blinking of an eye. If strikers were judged as "costing" games for sitters despite great attacking play, getting into great positions and then just missing out every now and then, they'd be insane to even try. I'd just stand around and do bugger all. We don't want that from our strikers though. A keeper, on the other hand, has the privilege of being in just one position, and having pretty much one main job. BUT he needs to do it well and RELIABLY. Cock that up and noone is going to say "ah well at least he got himself in the position of being between the sticks" etc. You are only responsible really for a few square metres of pitch. Yoru job is to stop shots going in and there are some basics that absolutely have to be nailed like covering the near post, not letting the ball slip underneath you, not passing it out to the opposition, etc etc As you say those are 10/10 expectations. Yes of course there are other things a keeper can do that would be above and beyond standard expectations (liek penalty saves, great saves etc) and noone would say a keeper costs the game for those things but the basics are basics.

As you succinctly say when you fail at a 10/10 expectation that is a "cost". When you mess up an 8/10 chance, it's a "it would've been nice but try better next time."

WHich is why I stand by Virginia costing us a point, harsh as that may be.

Isn't it said an outstanding keeper is worth 5-6points per season or something like that? I'd say a poor/young/developing keeper (someone who makes these crucial howlers) costs a team almost the same.

Its like when Cech moved to Arsenal Rio Ferdinand (I think) said he was worth 6 points a season. I dont think he turned out to be but the point is sensible. A keeper capable of doing their job reliably week in week out is worth a lot of points. Al-Habsi was worth a fair few points for example. His extraordinary saves were valuable. Martinez too. Emi was probably worth more than 6 points with the stability he brought to the role but we didnt get him for a full season.


Yeah. Interesting thanks. I interpret it slightly differently as:

Standard keeper - Keeper doing his/her job reliably, all the basics covered, good command of area, no mistakes, saves what you'd reasonably expect = the standard. eg// perhaps the likes of Mannone (before his mum sadly passed away and form dipped),. // Team finishes with X points.

Great keeper - doing all the above PLUS some breathtaking saves, last minute stops, +/- brilliant distribution, inspiring command of the area. Eg/ Hislop, Hahneman, AAH, Martinez // Team finishes with X+6 points

Dodgy keeper - can't do the basics reliably. Might have some good attributes and make some good saves but every now and then will make a bizarre error. Eg/ Walker, Jaakola, ?Virginia // Team finishes with X-6 points.

Me - scared of the ball // Team finishes with 0 points.

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Re: BFTG - HULL CITY (AWAY)

by NewCorkSeth » 12 Aug 2019 10:17

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I agree Ian, I think you've succinctly beautifully explained what I'm going to ramble on about for the next paragraph.

A keeper is asked to do something different from the rest of the team, especially attackers. A keeper earns his money for being reliable, a striker almost quite the opposite - can be unpredictable as long as he causes havoc and scores *some* goals. The latter are asked to ping the ball around and create chances and try to get the ball in the back of the net. More often than not, the shots won't result in goals but some of them will. Even in situations where you'd expect a goal to be scored like Puscas you can reasonably argue he did well to get into that position in the first place, shake off his defender, contribute to play such that the attack came about in the first place etc etc. I might have scored that Puscas chance but I sure as hell wouldn't have gotten myself into that position. There are sooo many variables with all the circumstances that get to an attacking position like that, in the blinking of an eye. If strikers were judged as "costing" games for sitters despite great attacking play, getting into great positions and then just missing out every now and then, they'd be insane to even try. I'd just stand around and do bugger all. We don't want that from our strikers though. A keeper, on the other hand, has the privilege of being in just one position, and having pretty much one main job. BUT he needs to do it well and RELIABLY. Cock that up and noone is going to say "ah well at least he got himself in the position of being between the sticks" etc. You are only responsible really for a few square metres of pitch. Yoru job is to stop shots going in and there are some basics that absolutely have to be nailed like covering the near post, not letting the ball slip underneath you, not passing it out to the opposition, etc etc As you say those are 10/10 expectations. Yes of course there are other things a keeper can do that would be above and beyond standard expectations (liek penalty saves, great saves etc) and noone would say a keeper costs the game for those things but the basics are basics.

As you succinctly say when you fail at a 10/10 expectation that is a "cost". When you mess up an 8/10 chance, it's a "it would've been nice but try better next time."

WHich is why I stand by Virginia costing us a point, harsh as that may be.

Isn't it said an outstanding keeper is worth 5-6points per season or something like that? I'd say a poor/young/developing keeper (someone who makes these crucial howlers) costs a team almost the same.

Its like when Cech moved to Arsenal Rio Ferdinand (I think) said he was worth 6 points a season. I dont think he turned out to be but the point is sensible. A keeper capable of doing their job reliably week in week out is worth a lot of points. Al-Habsi was worth a fair few points for example. His extraordinary saves were valuable. Martinez too. Emi was probably worth more than 6 points with the stability he brought to the role but we didnt get him for a full season.


Yeah. Interesting thanks. I interpret it slightly differently as:

Standard keeper - Keeper doing his/her job reliably, all the basics covered, good command of area, no mistakes, saves what you'd reasonably expect = the standard. eg// perhaps the likes of Mannone (before his mum sadly passed away and form dipped),. // Team finishes with X points.

Great keeper - doing all the above PLUS some breathtaking saves, last minute stops, +/- brilliant distribution, inspiring command of the area. Eg/ Hislop, Hahneman, AAH, Martinez // Team finishes with X+6 points

Dodgy keeper - can't do the basics reliably. Might have some good attributes and make some good saves but every now and then will make a bizarre error. Eg/ Walker, Jaakola, ?Virginia // Team finishes with X-6 points.

Me - scared of the ball // Team finishes with 0 points.

All seems fair. Especially the last point. The real question is: What were Federici and McCarthy? Standard probably..


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Re: BFTG - HULL CITY (AWAY)

by Snowball » 12 Aug 2019 11:07

I think a dodgy keeper can cost far more than 6 points in a season

He can cost points directly, but worse, he unsettles the defence and
is a big hit on morale. Defenders stop letting the ball through to the keeper,
and so on.

Moore's body language on Saturday was awful. He looked seriously p!ssed off
by the first goal, was poor for the second.

We have a problem, and it isn't just the keeper.

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Re: BFTG - HULL CITY (AWAY)

by Snowball » 12 Aug 2019 11:09

NewCorkSeth Wouldn't it be relatively normal to expect your keeper to make more saves then a striker to score goals? I mean a hat trick is rare but a keeper making 3+ saves is pretty normal. So when a keeper drops the proverbial ball it stands out all the more as it is so uncommon. Whereas strikers miss every game.

I always think of Lukaku at Utd. Their fans butchered him for his performances but he scored 42 goals in 96 games. He missed a few sitters but that kinda scoring rate at that level? Insanely good. Probably only behind Kane, Aubameyang, Salah and Aguero (I didnt check this) for the last 2 seasons. And only one of those spent those 2 seasons in a mess of a team like Lukaku did.



Strikers score 1/4, 1/5, 1/6 unless on a ridiculous Blackmanesque purple patch

If keepers let in 3/4, 4/5 or 5/6 shots, they'd be turned into meat pies

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Re: BFTG - HULL CITY (AWAY)

by Forbury Lion » 12 Aug 2019 11:48

Zip
URZZZZ Yiadom has had two really poor games so far. Could only imagine how much longer this thread would be if Gunter has put in two similar performances...

I wonder who Gomes fancies as second choice RB between Howe, Watson and Gunter. Obviously Gunter is still here, but he seemed to fancy Howe quite a bit in pre season


As Gunts is still at the club I don’t see why Gomes should continue to exclude him. Nor McCleary. However GMac will struggle to make the squad.
On BBC Berks, Tim Delor pointed out that Yiadom having played in the Africas cup or something is possibly tired and could have done with some time off - I guess it's not too late to give him a rest, play Gunter instead and let him put himself in the shop window for when the trsf window opens.

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Re: BFTG - HULL CITY (AWAY)

by NewCorkSeth » 12 Aug 2019 12:03

You 3 are genuinely nuts if you think Gunter should be used.

Howe is probably second choice and I know I would rather see someone fighting to make their break in football over a "never quite good enough" RB who has been banished from first team training.

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Re: BFTG - HULL CITY (AWAY)

by morganb » 12 Aug 2019 14:05

NewCorkSeth You 3 are genuinely nuts if you think Gunter should be used.

Howe is probably second choice and I know I would rather see someone fighting to make their break in football over a "never quite good enough" RB who has been banished from first team training.


Gunter playing in the U23s today (as are McCleary and Nova)

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Re: BFTG - HULL CITY (AWAY)

by Dr_Hfuhruhurr » 12 Aug 2019 15:52

NewCorkSeth
: What were Federici and McCarthy? Standard probably..


Federici was a standard keeper. He also had an issue with the near post by the way.
McCarthy was a combination of a great keeper and an occassional dodgy keeper. An excellant shot stopper but at times a bit of a flapper. He could have been great if we hadnt had wanted the cash from QPR.

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Re: BFTG - HULL CITY (AWAY)

by NewCorkSeth » 12 Aug 2019 16:22

Dr_Hfuhruhurr
NewCorkSeth
: What were Federici and McCarthy? Standard probably..


Federici was a standard keeper. He also had an issue with the near post by the way.
McCarthy was a combination of a great keeper and an occassional dodgy keeper. An excellant shot stopper but at times a bit of a flapper. He could have been great if we hadnt had wanted the cash from QPR.

I think we need a power post ranking all our keepers from best to worst.

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