Bowen Out.

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Re: Bowen Out.

by Vision » 21 Feb 2020 13:12

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The point was, pre-season we couldn't fund the replacements until those players were gone.



Yes, however, thats undoubtedly quite common in football. They are still professionals, you keep them involved and ready for action when needed, and if someone had come in, all the better.

Publicly sidelining them just made it look like we'd take anything to get rid of them, and upset the players themselves as well

Not a case of having a load of sympathy for Gunter and co, its just the practicalities of what Gomes did was wrong. It'd have been interesting to see what would have happened had we not had that last minute splurge mind you


I agree here

Every manager has their own ethos and way of taking the club forward and I sympathise with his thoughts that they weren’t going to fit in, whilst not necessarily agreeing. However, you treat them as humans and not as prisoners, which IMO was his worst mistake. You’d have thought Gunter and McCleary would have close ties with players at the club who wouldn’t exactly be enthusiastic at the way they’d been treated

In addition, I also wouldn’t have sold Kelly in pre season but I know I’m in a small minority here so won’t dwell too much on that. However, selling him for nothing, whichever way you look at him, was really poor


We can't have it both ways though. We say we want a pathway for Academy players so if a manager wants to work with a leaner squad who misses out? Barrett/Howe/Loader/Olise or Gunter/McCleary/Baldock ? Even then as Baldock demonstrated there was still an opportunity in exceptional circumstances to get back in.

Also to quote an old HNA trope , I'd have driven any or all of the sidelined players wherever they wanted if it mean't we could have got Oliveira in the summer. And I don't even drive ;-)

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Re: Bowen Out.

by Vision » 21 Feb 2020 13:13

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Hound After that great week (Cardiff Home, West Brom & Huddersfield away). 1 goal conceded and 7 points we weren't talking about defensive frailties or playing styles.


Having watched every minute of all 3 games. More questions than answers still remained. The squad wasn't up to the style that Gomes was trying to impose.


The latter two were exactly the sort of "digging in" away results we're lauding Bowen for surely.

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Re: Bowen Out.

by Hound » 21 Feb 2020 13:14

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Yes, however, thats undoubtedly quite common in football. They are still professionals, you keep them involved and ready for action when needed, and if someone had come in, all the better.

Publicly sidelining them just made it look like we'd take anything to get rid of them, and upset the players themselves as well

Not a case of having a load of sympathy for Gunter and co, its just the practicalities of what Gomes did was wrong. It'd have been interesting to see what would have happened had we not had that last minute splurge mind you


I agree here

Every manager has their own ethos and way of taking the club forward and I sympathise with his thoughts that they weren’t going to fit in, whilst not necessarily agreeing. However, you treat them as humans and not as prisoners, which IMO was his worst mistake. You’d have thought Gunter and McCleary would have close ties with players at the club who wouldn’t exactly be enthusiastic at the way they’d been treated

In addition, I also wouldn’t have sold Kelly in pre season but I know I’m in a small minority here so won’t dwell too much on that. However, selling him for nothing, whichever way you look at him, was really poor


We can't have it both ways though. We say we want a pathway for Academy players so if a manager wants to work with a leaner squad who misses out? Barrett/Howe/Loader/Olise or Gunter/McCleary/Baldock ? Even then as Baldock demonstrated there was still an opportunity in exceptional circumstances to get back in.

Also to quote an old HNA trope , I'd have driven any or all of the sidelined players wherever they wanted if it mean't we could have got Oliveira in the summer. And I don't even drive ;-)


But then Gomes was calling for signings throughout the summer and was happy to rope in experienced new signings at the expense of academy kids when they were available to him. Gomes' squad by the time he left was anything but lean

he just replaced experienced pros Gunter, Baldock and McCleary with experienced pros Morrison, Adam, Pele, Joao, Puscas and Boye (though obvs sounds like he didn't know much about Morrison/Adam)

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Re: Bowen Out.

by Snowflake Royal » 21 Feb 2020 13:15

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Hound I don't get a lot of joy out of criticising Gomes, and he was the right man for the job last year, but I've also little doubt it was the correct decision to sack him when we did - and I was quite vocal about saying it at the time



The combined contribution from the loanees was the turning point last season. Not least having a class keeper.


Which was in part financed because a decision was made very quickly by the new management that Mannone/McNulty/Meyler etc were not required and were told exactly that.

I doubt very much if we'd have got all of them if not. 2 or 3 at a push.

It wasn't really the new management. Clement identified a lot of them to be moved out himself, but didn't last long enough to implement it.

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Re: Bowen Out.

by Vision » 21 Feb 2020 13:26

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The combined contribution from the loanees was the turning point last season. Not least having a class keeper.


Which was in part financed because a decision was made very quickly by the new management that Mannone/McNulty/Meyler etc were not required and were told exactly that.

I doubt very much if we'd have got all of them if not. 2 or 3 at a push.


I can't remember exactly, but didnt we sign all the loanees before we got rid of that motley bunch? And apparently the loanees didnt cost us a penny (though slight sceptical about that)


I think theres very little chance they didn't cost us anything.


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Re: Bowen Out.

by URZZZZ » 21 Feb 2020 13:39

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Yes, however, thats undoubtedly quite common in football. They are still professionals, you keep them involved and ready for action when needed, and if someone had come in, all the better.

Publicly sidelining them just made it look like we'd take anything to get rid of them, and upset the players themselves as well

Not a case of having a load of sympathy for Gunter and co, its just the practicalities of what Gomes did was wrong. It'd have been interesting to see what would have happened had we not had that last minute splurge mind you


I agree here

Every manager has their own ethos and way of taking the club forward and I sympathise with his thoughts that they weren’t going to fit in, whilst not necessarily agreeing. However, you treat them as humans and not as prisoners, which IMO was his worst mistake. You’d have thought Gunter and McCleary would have close ties with players at the club who wouldn’t exactly be enthusiastic at the way they’d been treated

In addition, I also wouldn’t have sold Kelly in pre season but I know I’m in a small minority here so won’t dwell too much on that. However, selling him for nothing, whichever way you look at him, was really poor


We can't have it both ways though. We say we want a pathway for Academy players so if a manager wants to work with a leaner squad who misses out? Barrett/Howe/Loader/Olise or Gunter/McCleary/Baldock ? Even then as Baldock demonstrated there was still an opportunity in exceptional circumstances to get back in.

Also to quote an old HNA trope , I'd have driven any or all of the sidelined players wherever they wanted if it mean't we could have got Oliveira in the summer. And I don't even drive ;-)


The point being though is you don’t isolate them away from the first team squad and basically just leave them to rot, like a piece of meat

Regardless of mine, yours, or Gomes’ views on said players, there’s morals and he crossed the line (IMO). I reckon Moore, for example was pretty close friends with Gunter and McCleary, having played together for a while, do you really think he was on board with the way Gomes treated them? Or do you think it ultimately lost Gomes support from the players (with manager support being a big thing in football)

At the end of the day, I’d say the relationship between the players is a lot stronger in most scenarios than player and manager

On NO, I did raise concerns over putting all our eggs in one basket with him. Undoubtedly, he’s a cracking striker, but his injury problems and his attitude seem to be a bit off and whilst I think he’s probably better than Bod was, I don’t think he was that much better. Similarly I don’t think Joao was worth 4 million more than Bodvarsson but that’s another point

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Re: Bowen Out.

by Vision » 21 Feb 2020 13:47

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The combined contribution from the loanees was the turning point last season. Not least having a class keeper.


Which was in part financed because a decision was made very quickly by the new management that Mannone/McNulty/Meyler etc were not required and were told exactly that.

I doubt very much if we'd have got all of them if not. 2 or 3 at a push.

It wasn't really the new management. Clement identified a lot of them to be moved out himself, but didn't last long enough to implement it.


Clement bought Meyler and McNulty didn't he? Spectacular admission of failure if he did and was already trying to bounce them out a few months later.

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Re: Bowen Out.

by Vision » 21 Feb 2020 14:02

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I agree here

Every manager has their own ethos and way of taking the club forward and I sympathise with his thoughts that they weren’t going to fit in, whilst not necessarily agreeing. However, you treat them as humans and not as prisoners, which IMO was his worst mistake. You’d have thought Gunter and McCleary would have close ties with players at the club who wouldn’t exactly be enthusiastic at the way they’d been treated

In addition, I also wouldn’t have sold Kelly in pre season but I know I’m in a small minority here so won’t dwell too much on that. However, selling him for nothing, whichever way you look at him, was really poor


We can't have it both ways though. We say we want a pathway for Academy players so if a manager wants to work with a leaner squad who misses out? Barrett/Howe/Loader/Olise or Gunter/McCleary/Baldock ? Even then as Baldock demonstrated there was still an opportunity in exceptional circumstances to get back in.

Also to quote an old HNA trope , I'd have driven any or all of the sidelined players wherever they wanted if it mean't we could have got Oliveira in the summer. And I don't even drive ;-)


But then Gomes was calling for signings throughout the summer and was happy to rope in experienced new signings at the expense of academy kids when they were available to him. Gomes' squad by the time he left was anything but lean

he just replaced experienced pros Gunter, Baldock and McCleary with experienced pros Morrison, Adam, Pele, Joao, Puscas and Boye (though obvs sounds like he didn't know much about Morrison/Adam)


He was desperate for Oliveira that's for sure.

Morrison and Adam came in before the money was released and whilst we were already away on that pre-season tour. As you say no idea how much involvement Gomes had in that.

The whole remit changed once the money was released . The expectation was completely different. Also in terms of experienced pros I'm not sure Boye/Puscas et al really compare to Gunter/McCleary/Baldock do they?

I've made a wider point about the owners before on different threads. I can't fault them for their apparent ambitions for us but the muddled running of this club since they came in. Gourlay rightly caught a lot of flak for some of the deals he made but it's not like we haven't continued down the "money will eventually make the difference" path. We've gone from manager to manager to manager with a pretty scattergun "desperation" at times in the transfer market. And it all started when Stam/BT 's talk of an Ajax style set up where the academy was front and centre was abandoned the moment there was a sniff of the Premier League Promised Land. In came the new money and from that moment on our recruitment strategy was throw enough and see if it sticks.

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Re: Bowen Out.

by Vision » 21 Feb 2020 14:16

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I agree here

Every manager has their own ethos and way of taking the club forward and I sympathise with his thoughts that they weren’t going to fit in, whilst not necessarily agreeing. However, you treat them as humans and not as prisoners, which IMO was his worst mistake. You’d have thought Gunter and McCleary would have close ties with players at the club who wouldn’t exactly be enthusiastic at the way they’d been treated

In addition, I also wouldn’t have sold Kelly in pre season but I know I’m in a small minority here so won’t dwell too much on that. However, selling him for nothing, whichever way you look at him, was really poor


We can't have it both ways though. We say we want a pathway for Academy players so if a manager wants to work with a leaner squad who misses out? Barrett/Howe/Loader/Olise or Gunter/McCleary/Baldock ? Even then as Baldock demonstrated there was still an opportunity in exceptional circumstances to get back in.

Also to quote an old HNA trope , I'd have driven any or all of the sidelined players wherever they wanted if it mean't we could have got Oliveira in the summer. And I don't even drive ;-)


The point being though is you don’t isolate them away from the first team squad and basically just leave them to rot, like a piece of meat

Regardless of mine, yours, or Gomes’ views on said players, there’s morals and he crossed the line (IMO). I reckon Moore, for example was pretty close friends with Gunter and McCleary, having played together for a while, do you really think he was on board with the way Gomes treated them? Or do you think it ultimately lost Gomes support from the players (with manager support being a big thing in football)

At the end of the day, I’d say the relationship between the players is a lot stronger in most scenarios than player and manager

On NO, I did raise concerns over putting all our eggs in one basket with him. Undoubtedly, he’s a cracking striker, but his injury problems and his attitude seem to be a bit off and whilst I think he’s probably better than Bod was, I don’t think he was that much better. Similarly I don’t think Joao was worth 4 million more than Bodvarsson but that’s another point


Left to rot like a piece of meat. Seriously??

They knew the score at the end of last season. They both had offers to move elsewhere. They chose to stay here. Good for them but forgive me if I'm not going to join you in shedding tears for them.

Gomes signed a contract and was sacked from his job by us . Should we feel moral outrage for him too? (I realise some of the more hysterical fanbase actually did)

Liam Moore will pretty much say and do anything that will make him out to be a leader. He's publicly "felt terrible" or "personally responsible" for the last 3 managerial sackings whilst being a major part of all those managers teams. Modern footballers (like managers) are pretty insular , they move around so much in this day and age that you afford to get too attached. I'm sure he wasn't happy about what had happened to them but its part of the game.


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Re: Bowen Out.

by Snowflake Royal » 21 Feb 2020 16:13

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Which was in part financed because a decision was made very quickly by the new management that Mannone/McNulty/Meyler etc were not required and were told exactly that.

I doubt very much if we'd have got all of them if not. 2 or 3 at a push.

It wasn't really the new management. Clement identified a lot of them to be moved out himself, but didn't last long enough to implement it.


Clement bought Meyler and McNulty didn't he? Spectacular admission of failure if he did and was already trying to bounce them out a few months later.

Yes. I'm not sure about McNulty, as I think he was more a longer term investment from Clement, but he binned off Meyler after about 5 games and brought through Rino instead.

He'd clearly decided to push Aluko out too. Pretty sure he'd dropped Mannone for Jaakkola.

See Gomes with Virginia and Cabral as a straight comparison to Meyler with the exception that Meyler actually had a good first game and should have been a good chance of success, where Virginia was always a huge punt.

Vaguely feel like Edward's might be another Clement might have earmarked to go, but can't recall whether he was fit soon enough to know. McShane got dropped by Clement too didn't he - albeit convenient injury?

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Re: Bowen Out.

by Hound » 21 Feb 2020 16:19

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We can't have it both ways though. We say we want a pathway for Academy players so if a manager wants to work with a leaner squad who misses out? Barrett/Howe/Loader/Olise or Gunter/McCleary/Baldock ? Even then as Baldock demonstrated there was still an opportunity in exceptional circumstances to get back in.

Also to quote an old HNA trope , I'd have driven any or all of the sidelined players wherever they wanted if it mean't we could have got Oliveira in the summer. And I don't even drive ;-)


The point being though is you don’t isolate them away from the first team squad and basically just leave them to rot, like a piece of meat

Regardless of mine, yours, or Gomes’ views on said players, there’s morals and he crossed the line (IMO). I reckon Moore, for example was pretty close friends with Gunter and McCleary, having played together for a while, do you really think he was on board with the way Gomes treated them? Or do you think it ultimately lost Gomes support from the players (with manager support being a big thing in football)

At the end of the day, I’d say the relationship between the players is a lot stronger in most scenarios than player and manager

On NO, I did raise concerns over putting all our eggs in one basket with him. Undoubtedly, he’s a cracking striker, but his injury problems and his attitude seem to be a bit off and whilst I think he’s probably better than Bod was, I don’t think he was that much better. Similarly I don’t think Joao was worth 4 million more than Bodvarsson but that’s another point


Left to rot like a piece of meat. Seriously??

They knew the score at the end of last season. They both had offers to move elsewhere. They chose to stay here. Good for them but forgive me if I'm not going to join you in shedding tears for them.

Gomes signed a contract and was sacked from his job by us . Should we feel moral outrage for him too? (I realise some of the more hysterical fanbase actually did)

Liam Moore will pretty much say and do anything that will make him out to be a leader. He's publicly "felt terrible" or "personally responsible" for the last 3 managerial sackings whilst being a major part of all those managers teams. Modern footballers (like managers) are pretty insular , they move around so much in this day and age that you afford to get too attached. I'm sure he wasn't happy about what had happened to them but its part of the game.


Its not a case of having sympathy or shedding tears.

Its simply a) making usable players unusable (esp Baldock who we really could have used early doors), and b) upsetting the squad. Obviously b) is more difficult to make judgement on, but it certainly wouldn't have helped having 2 popular players (Swift went on hols with Gunter for example) and one who seems to be rated in the squad, made to train with the u23s

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Re: Bowen Out.

by Snowflake Royal » 21 Feb 2020 16:23

Yeah, simply put it's poor resource and people management.

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Re: Bowen Out.

by muirinho » 21 Feb 2020 17:48

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Its not a case of having sympathy or shedding tears.

Its simply a) making usable players unusable (esp Baldock who we really could have used early doors), and b) upsetting the squad. Obviously b) is more difficult to make judgement on, but it certainly wouldn't have helped having 2 popular players (Swift went on hols with Gunter for example) and one who seems to be rated in the squad, made to train with the u23s


Yes, not just making the players unusable, but making them in effect worth nothing financially either. Why should clubs pay a transfer fee or wages for a Reading player who Reading have made absolutely clear they aren't going to play? If you just want them out of the dressing-room, you pay their salary, so they'll go elsewhere to play. But Reading, under Gomes, wouldn't take the financial hit - why should the players or other clubs pay it instead?


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Re: Bowen Out.

by Lower West » 21 Feb 2020 18:41

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Having watched every minute of all 3 games. More questions than answers still remained. The squad wasn't up to the style that Gomes was trying to impose.


The latter two were exactly the sort of "digging in" away results we're lauding Bowen for surely.


Another day both games would have been over before half time. Fortunately, as with many Championship teams this year, there's a dearth of decent centre forwards.

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Re: Bowen Out.

by URZZZZ » 21 Feb 2020 18:52

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Having watched every minute of all 3 games. More questions than answers still remained. The squad wasn't up to the style that Gomes was trying to impose.


The latter two were exactly the sort of "digging in" away results we're lauding Bowen for surely.


Another day both games would have been over before half time. Fortunately, as with many Championship teams this year, there's a dearth of decent centre forwards.


Don’t recall WBA or Huddersfield particularly dominating us in terms of chances created or clear cut ones anyway

You could easily say, on the other side of the argument, that had the Wednesday guy been rightfully sent off for handballing on the line on the first game of the season, who knows what position we’d be in?

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Re: Bowen Out.

by Hound » 21 Feb 2020 19:01

WBA away is actually our best performance of the season imo

Thought we could have been onto something really good at the time

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Re: Bowen Out.

by Stranded » 21 Feb 2020 19:32

Hound WBA away is actually our best performance of the season imo

Thought we could have been onto something really good at the time


It was up there but IIRC we also got pretty lucky that a penalty wasn't awarded 5 mins in which could have made for a very different game.

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Re: Bowen Out.

by SCIAG » 21 Feb 2020 19:38

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Snowflake Royal It wasn't really the new management. Clement identified a lot of them to be moved out himself, but didn't last long enough to implement it.


Clement bought Meyler and McNulty didn't he? Spectacular admission of failure if he did and was already trying to bounce them out a few months later.

Yes. I'm not sure about McNulty, as I think he was more a longer term investment from Clement, but he binned off Meyler after about 5 games and brought through Rino instead.

He also signed Ezatolahi which has to be up there with McDermott signing Ian Harte to replace Marcus Williams in the same window.

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Re: Bowen Out.

by Snowflake Royal » 21 Feb 2020 23:36

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Clement bought Meyler and McNulty didn't he? Spectacular admission of failure if he did and was already trying to bounce them out a few months later.

Yes. I'm not sure about McNulty, as I think he was more a longer term investment from Clement, but he binned off Meyler after about 5 games and brought through Rino instead.

He also signed Ezatolahi which has to be up there with McDermott signing Ian Harte to replace Marcus Williams in the same window.

That was it, I knew there was someone!

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Re: Bowen Out.

by URZZZZ » 21 Feb 2020 23:57

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Hound WBA away is actually our best performance of the season imo

Thought we could have been onto something really good at the time


It was up there but IIRC we also got pretty lucky that a penalty wasn't awarded 5 mins in which could have made for a very different game.


Yeah, agreed. Thought it was a stonewall penalty at the time and still think it should have been given

It was a good battling performance but rather ruined by our tendency to hide in our defensive shell, which they inevitably capitalised on

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