Championship group administration possible ???

Hound
Hob Nob Super-Addict
Posts: 14653
Joined: 27 Sep 2016 22:16
Location: Simpleton

Re: Championship group administration possible ???

by Hound » 09 Apr 2020 08:50

Greatwesternline Why don't they just furlough their players? Presumably clubs are scared they will lose the registration of their players. But the option is there already. Strange article


Isn't the furlough capped at 2.5k per month? I've not paid massive attention to it, but if that is the case, not sure that would go down so well with the 30k p/w crowd

Greatwesternline
Hob Nob Regular
Posts: 1224
Joined: 09 Apr 2008 14:36

Re: Championship group administration possible ???

by Greatwesternline » 09 Apr 2020 08:52

Hound
Greatwesternline Why don't they just furlough their players? Presumably clubs are scared they will lose the registration of their players. But the option is there already. Strange article


Isn't the furlough capped at 2.5k per month? I've not paid massive attention to it, but if that is the case, not sure that would go down so well with the 30k p/w crowd


Yep, but putting yourself into administration to achieve the same end, not owing your players anymore won't go down too well with them anyway.

This is all bollx anyway because if you dont pay your footballer creditors you aren't allowed in the league, administration does nothing for those debts.

Unless the football league decide to wave that rule if everyone does it simultaneously.

User avatar
tmesis
Hob Nob Regular
Posts: 1593
Joined: 16 Aug 2013 20:26

Re: Championship group administration possible ???

by tmesis » 09 Apr 2020 18:14

Franchise FC
tmesis I don't think you need salary caps. All you need to do if prevent clubs that are in debt from increasing that debt by signing more players.

If there's one thing I'd love to have from the US sports, it's not salary caps, it's the ability to "cut" players from the squad. If unwanted players could be released on a free it would help hugely, especially after relegation.


Fans here would hate salary caps. Imagine if we dropped into League Two after administration, for example. We might be getting 8000 a week at our games, but be limited to a budget of a club pulling 3500 a game. Fans would be hugely frustrated at not being able to use a financial advantage of being a "bigger club" to our benefit.

Please name just one club that is not in debt


No idea, but that's not really the point. If you reduce the ability of clubs to get into debt (or the ability to make their debts worse) and that's applied across the board, you kill the "arms race" mentality of having to keep up with the other overspenders, and also stop the "going for broke" promotion gambles.

Simply, every club current spends about 20% more than they can afford to spend, because everyone else is also spending 20% extra. Stop clubs overspending, and keeping within budget is no longer a disadvantage.


FFP was designed to do that, but the debt limits are so huge that it's pointless.

User avatar
Franchise FC
Hob Nob Addict
Posts: 5127
Joined: 22 May 2007 16:24
Location: The Frozen North

Re: Championship group administration possible ???

by Franchise FC » 09 Apr 2020 18:38

I really hate the FFP rules.
Ensures that today’s rich clubs stay that way.

Much prefer the ability to put into a club whatever a founder wants, but it’s as capital, i.e. non-refundable.
One additional proviso is that the funding must cover the full extent of contracts, e.g. a 5 year player deal must be covered by the funder.

Doesn’t stop clubs getting bigger and better, but does stop them getting into stupid debt.

Stranded
Hob Nob Subscriber
Hob Nob Subscriber
Posts: 11550
Joined: 14 Apr 2004 12:42
Location: Propping up the bar in the Nags

Re: Championship group administration possible ???

by Stranded » 09 Apr 2020 18:53

Greatwesternline
Hound
Greatwesternline Why don't they just furlough their players? Presumably clubs are scared they will lose the registration of their players. But the option is there already. Strange article


Isn't the furlough capped at 2.5k per month? I've not paid massive attention to it, but if that is the case, not sure that would go down so well with the 30k p/w crowd


Yep, but putting yourself into administration to achieve the same end, not owing your players anymore won't go down too well with them anyway.

This is all bollx anyway because if you dont pay your footballer creditors you aren't allowed in the league, administration does nothing for those debts.

Unless the football league decide to wave that rule if everyone does it simultaneously.


Doesn't the article say that the rule around football creditors could be changed if 75% of Chmapionship clubs vote for it - so it is not set in stone.

Re - furloughing the players, players are fixed term contractors - don't believe they can be furloughed? And if they can what happens if say the players are still furloughed when a contract expires - would they still receive payments, would there be an onus on the employer to re-employ that furloughed individual?


Greatwesternline
Hob Nob Regular
Posts: 1224
Joined: 09 Apr 2008 14:36

Re: Championship group administration possible ???

by Greatwesternline » 09 Apr 2020 19:55

Stranded
Greatwesternline
Hound
Isn't the furlough capped at 2.5k per month? I've not paid massive attention to it, but if that is the case, not sure that would go down so well with the 30k p/w crowd


Yep, but putting yourself into administration to achieve the same end, not owing your players anymore won't go down too well with them anyway.

This is all bollx anyway because if you dont pay your footballer creditors you aren't allowed in the league, administration does nothing for those debts.

Unless the football league decide to wave that rule if everyone does it simultaneously.


Doesn't the article say that the rule around football creditors could be changed if 75% of Chmapionship clubs vote for it - so it is not set in stone.

Re - furloughing the players, players are fixed term contractors - don't believe they can be furloughed? And if they can what happens if say the players are still furloughed when a contract expires - would they still receive payments, would there be an onus on the employer to re-employ that furloughed individual?


Yes fixed term can be furloughed. No idea what happens at end of contract. Treasury guidance doesn't go into that detail. Suspect there will be nice legal dispute. Either way, it's strange that footballers haven't already been furloughed. Maybe because they are still "working" by keeping fit.

Hound
Hob Nob Super-Addict
Posts: 14653
Joined: 27 Sep 2016 22:16
Location: Simpleton

Re: Championship group administration possible ???

by Hound » 09 Apr 2020 20:33

Noticed some cricket teams have furloughed their players. Different world to top level football but maybe not dissimilar to Divs1 and 2

User avatar
tmesis
Hob Nob Regular
Posts: 1593
Joined: 16 Aug 2013 20:26

Re: Championship group administration possible ???

by tmesis » 09 Apr 2020 21:18

Franchise FC I really hate the FFP rules.
Ensures that today’s rich clubs stay that way.

It stop billionaires buying success (which oddly didn't seem to be a problem when it was Italian clubs doing it in the past) but doesn't have too much relevance beyond the very top of the game.

Much prefer the ability to put into a club whatever a founder wants, but it’s as capital, i.e. non-refundable.

I favour that too. Make a rule so clubs can't be in debt to the owner. If they want to put money in as "sponsorship" that would be fine, and not penalised by FFP rules.

User avatar
tmesis
Hob Nob Regular
Posts: 1593
Joined: 16 Aug 2013 20:26

Re: Championship group administration possible ???

by tmesis » 09 Apr 2020 21:19

Hound Noticed some cricket teams have furloughed their players. Different world to top level football but maybe not dissimilar to Divs1 and 2

Some rugby clubs too. I know Northampton Saints did it.


Bonzodog
Member
Posts: 66
Joined: 20 Apr 2014 11:45

Re: Championship group administration possible ???

by Bonzodog » 09 Apr 2020 22:15

Greatwesternline
Stranded
Greatwesternline
Yep, but putting yourself into administration to achieve the same end, not owing your players anymore won't go down too well with them anyway.

This is all bollx anyway because if you dont pay your footballer creditors you aren't allowed in the league, administration does nothing for those debts.

Unless the football league decide to wave that rule if everyone does it simultaneously.


Doesn't the article say that the rule around football creditors could be changed if 75% of Chmapionship clubs vote for it - so it is not set in stone.

Re - furloughing the players, players are fixed term contractors - don't believe they can be furloughed? And if they can what happens if say the players are still furloughed when a contract expires - would they still receive payments, would there be an onus on the employer to re-employ that furloughed individual?


Yes fixed term can be furloughed. No idea what happens at end of contract. Treasury guidance doesn't go into that detail. Suspect there will be nice legal dispute. Either way, it's strange that footballers haven't already been furloughed. Maybe because they are still "working" by keeping fit.


Forest Green have furloughed all of their staff including players. I would assume that they sought advice.

3points
Hob Nob Regular
Posts: 2054
Joined: 27 Oct 2013 17:22

Re: Championship group administration possible ???

by 3points » 10 Apr 2020 15:53

Franchise FC I really hate the FFP rules.
Ensures that today’s rich clubs stay that way.

Much prefer the ability to put into a club whatever a founder wants, but it’s as capital, i.e. non-refundable.
One additional proviso is that the funding must cover the full extent of contracts, e.g. a 5 year player deal must be covered by the funder.

Doesn’t stop clubs getting bigger and better, but does stop them getting into stupid debt.

that's actually the (un)intended consequence of all the FFP type regulalations which is probably why the big clubs all agreed to it. it's the nearest way they can have to locking up access to the Champions League without doing a European Super league. Personally I think a European Super League is a crap idea. I think we'd possibly get much better national level football in the Uk as a result as the remaining wealth from TV money would be lower and better distributed. Potentially have PL 1 & 2, of 20 teams each. I'd pay for that, but not a European Super League. Let all the Chinese, Asian and Arab "fans" fund that

User avatar
Snowflake Royal
Hob Nob Super-Addict
Posts: 13579
Joined: 20 Jun 2017 17:51

Re: Championship group administration possible ???

by Snowflake Royal » 10 Apr 2020 16:30

Stranded
Greatwesternline
Hound
Isn't the furlough capped at 2.5k per month? I've not paid massive attention to it, but if that is the case, not sure that would go down so well with the 30k p/w crowd


Yep, but putting yourself into administration to achieve the same end, not owing your players anymore won't go down too well with them anyway.

This is all bollx anyway because if you dont pay your footballer creditors you aren't allowed in the league, administration does nothing for those debts.

Unless the football league decide to wave that rule if everyone does it simultaneously.


Doesn't the article say that the rule around football creditors could be changed if 75% of Chmapionship clubs vote for it - so it is not set in stone.

Re - furloughing the players, players are fixed term contractors - don't believe they can be furloughed? And if they can what happens if say the players are still furloughed when a contract expires - would they still receive payments, would there be an onus on the employer to re-employ that furloughed individual?

Our HR view is that fixed term employees are covered.

Whether a footballer counts as an employee or a contractor I haven't a clue.

User avatar
Snowflake Royal
Hob Nob Super-Addict
Posts: 13579
Joined: 20 Jun 2017 17:51

Re: Championship group administration possible ???

by Snowflake Royal » 10 Apr 2020 16:31

tmesis
Franchise FC I really hate the FFP rules.
Ensures that today’s rich clubs stay that way.

It stop billionaires buying success (which oddly didn't seem to be a problem when it was Italian clubs doing it in the past) but doesn't have too much relevance beyond the very top of the game.

Much prefer the ability to put into a club whatever a founder wants, but it’s as capital, i.e. non-refundable.

I favour that too. Make a rule so clubs can't be in debt to the owner. If they want to put money in as "sponsorship" that would be fine, and not penalised by FFP rules.

Reverse the Spurs decision that money can be taken out of football clubs.


Nameless
Hob Nob Addict
Posts: 6001
Joined: 23 Aug 2013 12:25

Re: Championship group administration possible ???

by Nameless » 10 Apr 2020 16:41

Snowflake Royal
Stranded
Greatwesternline
Yep, but putting yourself into administration to achieve the same end, not owing your players anymore won't go down too well with them anyway.

This is all bollx anyway because if you dont pay your footballer creditors you aren't allowed in the league, administration does nothing for those debts.

Unless the football league decide to wave that rule if everyone does it simultaneously.


Doesn't the article say that the rule around football creditors could be changed if 75% of Chmapionship clubs vote for it - so it is not set in stone.

Re - furloughing the players, players are fixed term contractors - don't believe they can be furloughed? And if they can what happens if say the players are still furloughed when a contract expires - would they still receive payments, would there be an onus on the employer to re-employ that furloughed individual?

Our HR view is that fixed term employees are covered.

Whether a footballer counts as an employee or a contractor I haven't a clue.


Wasn’t there a ruling that if your contract meant you only worked for one employer that made you in effect an employee ?
But for the furlough isn’t the criteria that you are paid PAYE, which I guess players are.
Most match day staff at football clubs are on zero hour fixed term contracts , they certainly are at Reading. Would be interesting to know if they have been furloughed although as there are no match days presumably there is no need (except that the staff will not be getting any money)

SCIAG
Hob Nob Regular
Posts: 4856
Joined: 17 Jun 2008 17:43
Location: Liburd for England

Re: Championship group administration possible ???

by SCIAG » 10 Apr 2020 18:32

Terms like debt, investment, and borrowing shouldn’t be dirty words. We were eight figures into debt thanks to Mr Madejski’s investment in our stadium, but it allowed us to grow massively. Mr Madejski received a return on his investment - without some promise of that he might not have done it and we might still be playing at Elm Park. I don’t think we should stop other clubs benefiting in the same way.

The issue is when you take on debt in order to pay wages. That can work - see Roberts, Jason - but only if the player increases your revenue enough to make up for the debt. Most of the time that’s going to require promotion, and only 3 in 24 clubs will get promoted in any year - if 20 of them are gambling on promotion then at least 17 are going to lose.

My solution? Remove the incentive to gamble.

FFP in the Championship died the second they let QPR get off scot free.

If when you publish your accounts in April, it transpires that you can’t afford your wages and transfer fees, then you’re not allowed to be promoted.

I think I’m probably missing something simple - are accounts perhaps published on a 12 month lag with no way to get around that? - but the major issue isn’t with the current rules, it is the penalties for breaking them.

User avatar
Franchise FC
Hob Nob Addict
Posts: 5127
Joined: 22 May 2007 16:24
Location: The Frozen North

Re: Championship group administration possible ???

by Franchise FC » 10 Apr 2020 18:58

SCIAG Terms like debt, investment, and borrowing shouldn’t be dirty words. We were eight figures into debt thanks to Mr Madejski’s investment in our stadium, but it allowed us to grow massively. Mr Madejski received a return on his investment - without some promise of that he might not have done it and we might still be playing at Elm Park. I don’t think we should stop other clubs benefiting in the same way.

The issue is when you take on debt in order to pay wages. That can work - see Roberts, Jason - but only if the player increases your revenue enough to make up for the debt. Most of the time that’s going to require promotion, and only 3 in 24 clubs will get promoted in any year - if 20 of them are gambling on promotion then at least 17 are going to lose.

My solution? Remove the incentive to gamble.

FFP in the Championship died the second they let QPR get off scot free.

If when you publish your accounts in April, it transpires that you can’t afford your wages and transfer fees, then you’re not allowed to be promoted.

I think I’m probably missing something simple - are accounts perhaps published on a 12 month lag with no way to get around that? - but the major issue isn’t with the current rules, it is the penalties for breaking them.

Accounting reference date (i.e. the company year end) isn’t necessarily the end of the fiscal year (5th April), so that is probably a non-starter.
And private companies have 9 months to prepare and file accounts.

User avatar
tmesis
Hob Nob Regular
Posts: 1593
Joined: 16 Aug 2013 20:26

Re: Championship group administration possible ???

by tmesis » 10 Apr 2020 20:35

Also "debt" has to be seen in terms of accounting.

If you build a stadium, the same as if you buy a house, you aren't strictly in debt. This is because the money paid for the building is matched by that building becoming an asset.

Similarly, you could argue that paying £5 million for a player doesn't mean you are £5 million worse off, because that player is worth £5 million.

There's no way you can do that with wages though.


I'm not against owners putting money into a club, but they shouldn't be able to do that as a loan, as that's what allows clubs to rack up colossal debts - the kind of debts which mean the club has to sell the stadium to the owner to pay him back.

3points
Hob Nob Regular
Posts: 2054
Joined: 27 Oct 2013 17:22

Re: Championship group administration possible ???

by 3points » 10 Apr 2020 22:53

As others have already noted, this is total tosh. I work in the insolvency space. Couple of obvious flaws in the plan.

Owners cannot necessarily buy the club and its assets back. The Insolvency Act doesn't allow that to happen. The clubs would have to marketed to ensure the administrators achieve the best value for creditors, who will potentially be owed huge sums of money. This means that potentially other people could come in and buy the clubs rather than the current owners.

Secondly, an administration doesn't automatically terminate any contract, including employment contracts (although a liquidation does). If the clubs went into administration and then the owners bought them back, they would be tied to the TUPE rules relating to employment contract meaning all the employees would have to be re-employed on the same terms and conditions they were on pre-administration as the re-purchase of the club with its associated business and assets would result in a transfer as a going concern.

The plan put forward would also mean the players are free agents. That way Premier league clubs could poach the best players for free, or foreign clubs could sign players too.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google Adsense [Bot], Jammy Dodger, Lower West, Snowball and 134 guests

It is currently 14 Jul 2020 17:40