Bowen's Tenure

[Lower West]

He lost all confidence when he was played up top, or part of a “revolving” front three with no strikers

Was the wrong decision from Stam to mess the system and his role about but ultimately the right decision to move him on eventually as he was contributing very little towards the end

Cooper was correctly let go by Stam, too clumsy and would have given away plenty of goals trying to pass it out. Works well in a traditional style, hence his form for Millwall

Cooper played in a team that finished above us in the league. Sometimes effort and committment add more to a team than technical players do, Aluko and Barrow spring to mind.

Yes but the point being made was it was correct to let him go at the time in a possession based team. Millwall are functional, which suits him down to the ground.

Forgot also that Blackett was a Stam signing as a central defender.

[Snowflake Royal]

I appreciate I am in the minority regarding Bowen s tenure.I just don’t believe in his and his coaching teams validity.Despite our final finishing position ,it has been a chronic season in terms of performance;with very few highlights.I believe this seasons squad had a lot of talent;but Bowen has been unable to harness their abilities;even though it would mean adopting a system not necessarily of his choice.
The worst scenario would be allowing him to develop a system,get the two or three players in that he wants;see him fail and then ditch him in say December, because the results are so bad.It will be deja vue all over again.

But better than than the previous tenures.

Simple fact is we can't expect any success just switching manager every 9 months.

[Notts Royal]

It wasn't really the same side under Stam in his second season though.

Our two best and most influential players on the season, at GK and ST, left or basically played no part. We replaced Beerens with Barrow - fine, but our midfield also fell apart.

Williams, Swift, Kelly, Berg and Evans

vs

Berg, Kelly, Edwards, Swift and Bacuna

Same manager though. So, if it was just a couple of players making the difference, what was the point of changing the manager? Or, if it wasn't those players, but we were just really lucky the season before, and really unlucky that season - again, what was the point of changing the manager?
That's my point.

In that case, the manager was responsible for replacing those players and failed to do so. He refused to accept criticism or adapt his approach for too long. He took a PO team to a relegation side and looked utterly clueless.

I don't think there's any choice but to sack him there. He got a lot of patience. Let's say he manages to avoid relegation, where's you're faith that he can do better next season when his tactics have failed him and his signings have been poor? Remember, under him the squad were able to never be concerned they'd get relegated - Liam Kelly. There's only two manager's since we got relegated who I'd say were the main reason we were in trouble - Stam and Gomes, both looked hopelessly out of their depth and their choices directly contributed to the problems.

Other than that Clarke made it clear he wanted to go and would jump ship at the first opportunity. Plus his limited success was almost entirely based on an incredible purple patch from an otherwise poor player, which had already come to an end. So I can fully get behind that one.

Adkins, McDermott2 and Clement had massive squad issues and I think it was the players who were the main problems. Not saying any of them were brilliant, but given time might have been able to turn it around, or if we did get relegated do a reasonable rebuilding job.

Bowen, for me, is very much in that latter group. It's the squad he has that is causing the main problems, not his choices. That's not to say he doesn't make mistakes, or he won't turn out to be another Stam or Gomes.

So I think we are on the same boat about Bowen and in general, but maybe not about how we got here or about Stam.

Agree with all of this tbh. Felt that Stam was only taking us in 1 direction & the Gomes appointment was iffy.

But I could understand the logic in the other appointments. Adkins, in hindsight, should have been given longer. Yes he should’ve done better with the season we finished 7th, but Anton had done a runner. Then he started the following season with loads of kids before making some good signings like Murray. Was that more of a transitional season than we thought it was at the time? Could the owners have had more patience? Football wasn’t great at times.

Clarke had done a good job at West Brom & lived locally. Seemed a good choice at the time. Had a bloated squad but took us to the FA Cup semi before starting the following season playing some terrific stuff. We all know how that ended.

Brian comes in to sort out the issues but not given the time. Given time he would’ve got a closer-knit bunch together. Harshly sacked.

Clement had managed in the prem so again understandable appointment - said all the right things in interviews but lacked charisma & those summer 18 signings were a bit of a scatter-gun approach. Signing both Baldock & McNulty was baffling

And now we’re onto Bowen, who again talks a good game, apart from blaming Puscas & Baldock when every man and his dog knows they can’t play the lone striker role. He should be given some time; again we all know the squad is massively imbalanced so it’s not really a surprise performances have been so inconsistent. Of course we need to see progress, but managers need several transfer windows...they always used to, and they forevermore will do. That’s a fact that seems lost on the modern owners of football.

[Snowflake Royal]

Just had a look at the manager performance going back to Clarke. There are a few surprises that stand out.

McDermott was doing quite well until the last 6 or so games when it fell apart *cough*loanees*cough*. Should definitely have been given the next season. Yeah, we might not have made the play offs, but I genuinely believe we wouldn't be back in the mess we are now if he'd had an extra 6 to 18 months.

Breaking it down into seasons, Bowen's got the best ppg since Stam's first season. He's also got one of the better home win rates since then with only Gomes' first season being better (ignoring Clement's 4 home games after Stam - numbers too small.)

Of course, it's not like the bar is very high... but anyway.

Bowen, 1.37 ppg, 33% home win rate. Basically double Gomes' first season wins, in +50% games. But virtually all Gomes' came at home.

Disclaimer, I may have miscounted a little here or there.

[royalp-we]

Basically, Bowen deserves a chance.

[leon]

Same manager though. So, if it was just a couple of players making the difference, what was the point of changing the manager? Or, if it wasn't those players, but we were just really lucky the season before, and really unlucky that season - again, what was the point of changing the manager?
That's my point.

In that case, the manager was responsible for replacing those players and failed to do so. He refused to accept criticism or adapt his approach for too long. He took a PO team to a relegation side and looked utterly clueless.

I don't think there's any choice but to sack him there. He got a lot of patience. Let's say he manages to avoid relegation, where's you're faith that he can do better next season when his tactics have failed him and his signings have been poor? Remember, under him the squad were able to never be concerned they'd get relegated - Liam Kelly. There's only two manager's since we got relegated who I'd say were the main reason we were in trouble - Stam and Gomes, both looked hopelessly out of their depth and their choices directly contributed to the problems.

Other than that Clarke made it clear he wanted to go and would jump ship at the first opportunity. Plus his limited success was almost entirely based on an incredible purple patch from an otherwise poor player, which had already come to an end. So I can fully get behind that one.

Adkins, McDermott2 and Clement had massive squad issues and I think it was the players who were the main problems. Not saying any of them were brilliant, but given time might have been able to turn it around, or if we did get relegated do a reasonable rebuilding job.

Bowen, for me, is very much in that latter group. It's the squad he has that is causing the main problems, not his choices. That's not to say he doesn't make mistakes, or he won't turn out to be another Stam or Gomes.

So I think we are on the same boat about Bowen and in general, but maybe not about how we got here or about Stam.

Agree with all of this tbh. Felt that Stam was only taking us in 1 direction & the Gomes appointment was iffy.

But I could understand the logic in the other appointments. Adkins, in hindsight, should have been given longer. Yes he should’ve done better with the season we finished 7th, but Anton had done a runner. Then he started the following season with loads of kids before making some good signings like Murray. Was that more of a transitional season than we thought it was at the time? Could the owners have had more patience? Football wasn’t great at times.

Clarke had done a good job at West Brom & lived locally. Seemed a good choice at the time. Had a bloated squad but took us to the FA Cup semi before starting the following season playing some terrific stuff. We all know how that ended.

Brian comes in to sort out the issues but not given the time. Given time he would’ve got a closer-knit bunch together. Harshly sacked.

Clement had managed in the prem so again understandable appointment - said all the right things in interviews but lacked charisma & those summer 18 signings were a bit of a scatter-gun approach. Signing both Baldock & McNulty was baffling

And now we’re onto Bowen, who again talks a good game, apart from blaming Puscas & Baldock when every man and his dog knows they can’t play the lone striker role. He should be given some time; again we all know the squad is massively imbalanced so it’s not really a surprise performances have been so inconsistent. Of course we need to see progress, but managers need several transfer windows...they always used to, and they forevermore will do. That’s a fact that seems lost on the modern owners of football.

Both Clarke and Clement were punts on inexperienced managers who’d had some success as number 2s.

Clement had managed less games when he took over than Stam had when he was sacked.

Gomes had flitted from role to role in some pretty shit leagues so was equally inexperienced.

Clement was partIcularly clueless and unsuited to being a manager.

Alarm bells should have been ringing on all 3 of those appointments.

Unsurprisingly they all ended badly.

[Snowflake Royal]

You can understand Clarke and Clement.... both a little management experience and done well as coaches.

Stam, well he's a Name and he'd come from a decent stint at Ajax's academy.

But Gomes is still just utterly inexplicable. Brilliant club ambassador. Shame we hired him as manager.

[royalp-we]

I feel Clarke, but especially Clement were pushed out far too soon, but such has been the recurring problem over the past few years.

Gomes was the weirdest appointment in memory. What on earth did they expect from a manager with his track record? For all his charm and ‘feel good’ with the fan base, what a complete and utter waste of time.

Bowen has a point to prove now. Yes he was another weird appointment as it was almost an internal staff promotion, fans won’t ever forget that. But boy has he stabilised us in this division, something which seemed a mile off when that fraud Gomes was running the ship 6 months ago.

It’s all about what he does next. Exciting!

[Stranded]

Gomes seemed to be appointed mainly because it had been decides to hire a manager doing well in Portugal. One Luis Castro turned us down, which would have been a decent appointment IMHO, they seemed stuck to that blueprint and found a manager there who would take the job rather than checking out alternative paths.

[SCIAG]

Cooper didn’t have a problem with the passing game. His problem was that he couldn’t reliably defend. Every match he’d make a serious mistake. Just wasn’t up to the standard.

[Simmops]

Cooper didn’t have a problem with the passing game. His problem was that he couldn’t reliably defend. Every match he’d make a serious mistake. Just wasn’t up to the standard.

I would not say no to having him now.....

[Simon's Church]

Cooper didn’t have a problem with the passing game. His problem was that he couldn’t reliably defend. Every match he’d make a serious mistake. Just wasn’t up to the standard.

Dont think that's true is it? he has a decent run of form under McDermott, a few mistakes but hes was 20/21? Probably Expected.
Then he wasnt given a chance under Stam, went to MIllwall and did well. Then they signed him that summer and he played every game for them and we almost went down.

[Nameless]

I think people aren’t ignoring ahuge thing Gomes did, which was to actually infect some positivity I Tom the club, he got people, excited and enjoy8ng coming to games again. We also stayed up.
Now I can understand that if we’d just wanted a cheerleader with a nice smile we could probably have gone for Michael McIntyre but the Jose appointment did work as a short term thing. Keeping him onafter the season ended was where we went wrong in hindsight.

[South Coast Royal]

I have always been intrigued by the view that having a manager and giving him time is the way forward especially seeing what has happened at clubs like Watford (unstable) getting relegated and Bournemouth (stable) getting relegated.

I thought it worthwhile to check the most successful sides in this year's Championship, i.e .the top 6 and although some of the numbers are skewed because of temporary manager appointments the general picture is mildly interesting.-
In the past 10 years these are the numbers:-

Leeds 15 managers
WBA 14
Brentford 7 (a bit unclear there but this one is approximate)
Fulham 10
Cardiff 9
Swansea 12

Over the same period Reading have had 8 permanent managers so is there an argument to say that we should have sacked more on the basis that one day Rodney etc.?

I don't know about Bowen who has been a no.2 for most of his post-playing career.
The defence is generally more sound if we forget the most recent game when our full-backs were at times Gunter and Blackett on the same pitch .
If the plan is to build a team from the back then we could say that stage one has been completed but the attacking side of the game really does need a massive improvement.

Is Bowen the man?-I have no idea, but the principle of keeping rather than sacking coaches may not bring the success that we yearn for if the record for this season in the Championship is anything to go by.
The key obviously is appointing the right man (or woman) at the right time and Reading, like all other clubs, just doesn't have that crystal ball.

[WestYorksRoyal]

I have always been intrigued by the view that having a manager and giving him time is the way forward especially seeing what has happened at clubs like Watford (unstable) getting relegated and Bournemouth (stable) getting relegated.

I thought it worthwhile to check the most successful sides in this year's Championship, i.e .the top 6 and although some of the numbers are skewed because of temporary manager appointments the general picture is mildly interesting.-
In the past 10 years these are the numbers:-

Leeds 15 managers
WBA 14
Brentford 7 (a bit unclear there but this one is approximate)
Fulham 10
Cardiff 9
Swansea 12

Over the same period Reading have had 8 permanent managers so is there an argument to say that we should have sacked more on the basis that one day Rodney etc.?

I don't know about Bowen who has been a no.2 for most of his post-playing career.
The defence is generally more sound if we forget the most recent game when our full-backs were at times Gunter and Blackett on the same pitch .
If the plan is to build a team from the back then we could say that stage one has been completed but the attacking side of the game really does need a massive improvement.

Is Bowen the man?-I have no idea, but the principle of keeping rather than sacking coaches may not bring the success that we yearn for if the record for this season in the Championship is anything to go by.
The key obviously is appointing the right man (or woman) at the right time and Reading, like all other clubs, just doesn't have that crystal ball.

I'd probably compare our own history. 2002 - 2013, we had 4 managers, 3 of whom had long tenures. Won promotion from League 1, had 3 seasons in PL and consistently pushed for promotion when in the Championship.

2013 - 2020; 7 managers and generally shit. It's not just about manager stability though. It's the club as a whole, and we've been chaotic. In the example of Brentford, their principles don't change and when a manager moves on or is poached, they find a suitable replacement.

[Hound]

Yeah it’s more about the club - have got ourselves into a right state by keep going for managers with completely different ideas but wanting to bring their own players in - and hence leaving us with an expensive 30 man squad, half of who aren’t fancied

I think as has been said elsewhere - it’s not so much the lower mid table finishes as the fact we’ve achieved that after spending stupid sums of money which is the problem for me

[Snowflake Royal]

I have always been intrigued by the view that having a manager and giving him time is the way forward especially seeing what has happened at clubs like Watford (unstable) getting relegated and Bournemouth (stable) getting relegated.

I thought it worthwhile to check the most successful sides in this year's Championship, i.e .the top 6 and although some of the numbers are skewed because of temporary manager appointments the general picture is mildly interesting.-
In the past 10 years these are the numbers:-

Leeds 15 managers
WBA 14
Brentford 7 (a bit unclear there but this one is approximate)
Fulham 10
Cardiff 9
Swansea 12

Over the same period Reading have had 8 permanent managers so is there an argument to say that we should have sacked more on the basis that one day Rodney etc.?

I don't know about Bowen who has been a no.2 for most of his post-playing career.
The defence is generally more sound if we forget the most recent game when our full-backs were at times Gunter and Blackett on the same pitch .
If the plan is to build a team from the back then we could say that stage one has been completed but the attacking side of the game really does need a massive improvement.

Is Bowen the man?-I have no idea, but the principle of keeping rather than sacking coaches may not bring the success that we yearn for if the record for this season in the Championship is anything to go by.
The key obviously is appointing the right man (or woman) at the right time and Reading, like all other clubs, just doesn't have that crystal ball.

I'd probably compare our own history. 2002 - 2013, we had 4 managers, 3 of whom had long tenures. Won promotion from League 1, had 3 seasons in PL and consistently pushed for promotion when in the Championship.

2013 - 2020; 7 managers and generally shit. It's not just about manager stability though. It's the club as a whole, and we've been chaotic. In the example of Brentford, their principles don't change and when a manager moves on or is poached, they find a suitable replacement.

Yeah, and look at Leeds. Absolute basket case failure most of that time. Stick with a good manager for a couple of seasons and now they're flying.

The way Vics numbers are presented they're an argument against stability, when in actual fact they're one of the best cases for.

[South Coast Royal]

I have always been intrigued by the view that having a manager and giving him time is the way forward especially seeing what has happened at clubs like Watford (unstable) getting relegated and Bournemouth (stable) getting relegated.

I thought it worthwhile to check the most successful sides in this year's Championship, i.e .the top 6 and although some of the numbers are skewed because of temporary manager appointments the general picture is mildly interesting.-
In the past 10 years these are the numbers:-

Leeds 15 managers
WBA 14
Brentford 7 (a bit unclear there but this one is approximate)
Fulham 10
Cardiff 9
Swansea 12

Over the same period Reading have had 8 permanent managers so is there an argument to say that we should have sacked more on the basis that one day Rodney etc.?

I don't know about Bowen who has been a no.2 for most of his post-playing career.
The defence is generally more sound if we forget the most recent game when our full-backs were at times Gunter and Blackett on the same pitch .
If the plan is to build a team from the back then we could say that stage one has been completed but the attacking side of the game really does need a massive improvement.

Is Bowen the man?-I have no idea, but the principle of keeping rather than sacking coaches may not bring the success that we yearn for if the record for this season in the Championship is anything to go by.
The key obviously is appointing the right man (or woman) at the right time and Reading, like all other clubs, just doesn't have that crystal ball.

I'd probably compare our own history. 2002 - 2013, we had 4 managers, 3 of whom had long tenures. Won promotion from League 1, had 3 seasons in PL and consistently pushed for promotion when in the Championship.

2013 - 2020; 7 managers and generally shit. It's not just about manager stability though. It's the club as a whole, and we've been chaotic. In the example of Brentford, their principles don't change and when a manager moves on or is poached, they find a suitable replacement.

Yeah, and look at Leeds. Absolute basket case failure most of that time. Stick with a good manager for a couple of seasons and now they're flying.

The way Vics numbers are presented they're an argument against stability, when in actual fact they're one of the best cases for.

They are not an argument at all, they are just how things have been for the current top 6 in our division.
I don't think there is any set formula for success, it comes, as it did for Coppell and McDermott because of 2 good managers getting a decent squad together.

[SouthDownsRoyal]

In that case, the manager was responsible for replacing those players and failed to do so. He refused to accept criticism or adapt his approach for too long. He took a PO team to a relegation side and looked utterly clueless.

I don't think there's any choice but to sack him there. He got a lot of patience. Let's say he manages to avoid relegation, where's you're faith that he can do better next season when his tactics have failed him and his signings have been poor? Remember, under him the squad were able to never be concerned they'd get relegated - Liam Kelly. There's only two manager's since we got relegated who I'd say were the main reason we were in trouble - Stam and Gomes, both looked hopelessly out of their depth and their choices directly contributed to the problems.

Other than that Clarke made it clear he wanted to go and would jump ship at the first opportunity. Plus his limited success was almost entirely based on an incredible purple patch from an otherwise poor player, which had already come to an end. So I can fully get behind that one.

Adkins, McDermott2 and Clement had massive squad issues and I think it was the players who were the main problems. Not saying any of them were brilliant, but given time might have been able to turn it around, or if we did get relegated do a reasonable rebuilding job.

Bowen, for me, is very much in that latter group. It's the squad he has that is causing the main problems, not his choices. That's not to say he doesn't make mistakes, or he won't turn out to be another Stam or Gomes.

So I think we are on the same boat about Bowen and in general, but maybe not about how we got here or about Stam.

Agree with all of this tbh. Felt that Stam was only taking us in 1 direction & the Gomes appointment was iffy.

But I could understand the logic in the other appointments. Adkins, in hindsight, should have been given longer. Yes he should’ve done better with the season we finished 7th, but Anton had done a runner. Then he started the following season with loads of kids before making some good signings like Murray. Was that more of a transitional season than we thought it was at the time? Could the owners have had more patience? Football wasn’t great at times.

Clarke had done a good job at West Brom & lived locally. Seemed a good choice at the time. Had a bloated squad but took us to the FA Cup semi before starting the following season playing some terrific stuff. We all know how that ended.

Brian comes in to sort out the issues but not given the time. Given time he would’ve got a closer-knit bunch together. Harshly sacked.

Clement had managed in the prem so again understandable appointment - said all the right things in interviews but lacked charisma & those summer 18 signings were a bit of a scatter-gun approach. Signing both Baldock & McNulty was baffling

And now we’re onto Bowen, who again talks a good game, apart from blaming Puscas & Baldock when every man and his dog knows they can’t play the lone striker role. He should be given some time; again we all know the squad is massively imbalanced so it’s not really a surprise performances have been so inconsistent. Of course we need to see progress, but managers need several transfer windows...they always used to, and they forevermore will do. That’s a fact that seems lost on the modern owners of football.

Both Clarke and Clement were punts on inexperienced managers who’d had some success as number 2s.

Clement had managed less games when he took over than Stam had when he was sacked.

Gomes had flitted from role to role in some pretty shit leagues so was equally inexperienced.

Clement was partIcularly clueless and unsuited to being a manager.

Alarm bells should have been ringing on all 3 of those appointments.

Unsurprisingly they all ended badly.

I guess given how dire the past few years have been, how bad our signings overall have been and how toxic the club seems to be I suppose we should just be thankful we have avoided league 1!

[Lower West]

Cooper didn’t have a problem with the passing game. His problem was that he couldn’t reliably defend. Every match he’d make a serious mistake. Just wasn’t up to the standard.

Precisely why Blackett no longer plays centre back. Lapses in concentration.