BF I follow Barnsley

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Nameless
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Re: BF I follow Barnsle

by Nameless » 20 Sep 2020 10:38

Snowflake Royal
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Snowflake Royal Last defender is an irrelevance.

For me, Joao was never beating the keeper to the ball, which makes it not a clear goalscoring opportunity, which makes it not a red.

I think what tipped the ref into the red is that there had already been one challenge taking down a player (Olise) trying to break through on goal (but who had absolutely no chance of getting to the ball first), so given this was closer and he'd already got a hard time from us on the first one he took the slightly easier option.

Also think it's hard to say the second was an arm in an unnatural position, but the game was already done by that point.


Being the last defender is certainly not an irrelevance.
It’s not in itself a reason to give a red but the position of other defenders is very much a factor and therefore if you are the last defender you don’t have the mitigating factor of another defender being able to make a legitimAte challenge.
Whether the keeper would have got there first is a tough one, he was well out of his area and I reckon there would have been every chance the end result could have actually been worse for Barnsley - if the defender had not pulled Joao back it could easily have been the keeper committing the foul. When you have a deliberate foul stopping a 50:50 between a striker and the keeper you are always going to consider that a goalscoring opportunity
Interesting to note the ref indicates the card was not for trip but for holding Joao back, hard to get a good view of that from the camera angle

Definite pull back (which Joao made the most of - legitimately).

The key is whether it's a clear goalscoring opportunity, the number of defenders around is not referenced in the law and it's not really helpful to talk about 'last defender's because it leads to a lot of misunderstanding about what should be red.

Defender fouls him, so the only consideration after that is who is favourite to get the ball. Keeper or striker. Fair enough if you think it's a 50/50, that would just about getting there for the red, but has nothing to do with the defender. I don't think it was close to 50/50 and the keeper was always clearing the ball.


From the FA Laws of the game, Law 12 Fouks and Misconduct. Referring to factors to be considered when awarding a red card for adenial of goalscoring opportunity offence :

The following must be considered:
- distance between the offence and the goal
- general direction of the play
- likelihood of keeping or gaining control of the ball
- location and number of defenders

It’s entirely relevant to talk about ‘last defender’, because as explained it makes it more likely that a red card offence has been committed, although other factors may mean it hasn’t.
The defenderclearly disagrees with you. If thekeepers was always going to clear the ball there would be no reason to have committted a foul with such a high risk of a red card. Sometimes I think it is quite right to penalise the intent. The defender intended to stop Joao having a goalscoring opportunity. If the defender misjudged the likelihood of their being an opportunity then that’s his error, he thought Joao was through on goal.....
In general I would rather the referee erred on the side of the attacking side when assessing how likely it was a player would have a goal scoring opportunity. Defenders committing a foul in order to prevent an opportunity should believe they are more, not less likely to be sent off.

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Snowflake Royal
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Re: BF I follow Barnsley

by Snowflake Royal » 20 Sep 2020 10:50

Sigh. Obviously the location and number of defenders present can be relevant. But that doesn't say anything about 'last defender's. If there's three defenders directly between you and goal it's not a clear goalscoring opportunity, is it.

Being the 'last defender' and fouling doesn't automatically make it a goalscoring opportunity and red card by default, which is a common misconception and spread by poor pundits and commentators, which is why it's an unuseful phrase because it promotes misunderstanding.

Last defender doesn't matter. There can be other defenders back and it's still a red, there can be no other defenders back and it's a definite yellow - see Olise incident.

But this is becoming tedious in the extreme so I'm out.

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Re: BF I follow Barnsley

by Nameless » 20 Sep 2020 10:56

Snowflake Royal Sigh. Obviously the location and number of defenders present can be relevant. But that doesn't say anything about 'last defender's. If there's three defenders directly between you and goal it's not a clear goalscoring opportunity, is it.

Being the 'last defender' and fouling doesn't automatically make it a goalscoring opportunity and red card by default, which is a common misconception and spread by poor pundits and commentators, which is why it's an unuseful phrase because it promotes misunderstanding.

Last defender doesn't matter. There can be other defenders back and it's still a red, there can be no other defenders back and it's a definite yellow - see Olise incident.

But this is becoming tedious in the extreme so I'm out.


Always impressive when someone is shown to be wrong so flounces off....

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Re: BF I follow Barnsley

by SCIAG » 20 Sep 2020 11:25

Last man is neither irrelevant (as Ian initially said), nor is it the be-all and end-all (as pundits make it out to be).

I think Ian’s actual point was that this was one of those cases where a foul by the last man didn’t, in his view, deny an obvious goal scoring opportunity.

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Re: BF I follow Barnsley

by NewCorkSeth » 20 Sep 2020 11:30

I must say I think the location of the ref was important too. To him it must have looked much more like a clear goalscoring chance than those who had a side on view.


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Re: BF I follow Barnsley

by Snowflake Royal » 20 Sep 2020 11:40

NewCorkSeth I must say I think the location of the ref was important too. To him it must have looked much more like a clear goalscoring chance than those who had a side on view.

Real time, angle, previous incident. Yeah, it's the wrong call IMO but it's never been hard to see why he made it.

I'd be appealing both cards if I was Barnsley.

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Re: BF I follow Barnsley

by Royal Ginger » 20 Sep 2020 11:50

The handball was a second yellow.

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Re: BF I follow Barnsley

by SouthDownsRoyal » 20 Sep 2020 11:55

karbota A truly woeful, awful win,. The first half not a shot on target, gifted two really dubious reds especially the second.

Cabral - 7 one good save kept us in, but poor distribution.
Araruna - 5 sloppy.
Morrison - 6 better but a bit slow.
Moore - 5 not good enough.
Richards - 4 wont be here long.
Rinomhota - 6 fair, but needs to get his fitness back
Laurent - 4 cant see the point.
Swift - 4 better we cash him in quick, very poor.
Olise - 8 a great strike, classy player but needs to get more involved.
Ejaria -5 tricky but no end product
Joao - 4 Rubbish.

Meite - 7 made the difference.
Aluko - 6 a few flashes of potential, and put in some great crosses.
Puscas- 4 too greedy, not up to the championship, move him on.


Bit harsh, carbooter

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Re: BF I follow Barnsley

by SouthDownsRoyal » 20 Sep 2020 12:00

Snowball We are a sad lot

100% in the league, Perfect record, no goals conceded 4-0

50% wins in the cup, only defeat 0-1 playing 11 team-changes 3-2

3 wins in 4 games, 75% win-rate overall. Goals 7 For 2 Against



and we are moaning.


Not all are :wink:

But too many are


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Re: BF I follow Barnsley

by Old Man Andrews » 20 Sep 2020 12:01

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NewCorkSeth I must say I think the location of the ref was important too. To him it must have looked much more like a clear goalscoring chance than those who had a side on view.

Real time, angle, previous incident. Yeah, it's the wrong call IMO but it's never been hard to see why he made it.

I'd be appealing both cards if I was Barnsley.

How are they going to appeal the 2nd red card? It was a second yellow card and you cannot appeal them.

Your lack of footballing knowledge is truly staggering. Imagine not knowing that. :roll:

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Re: BF I follow Barnsley

by Nameless » 20 Sep 2020 12:14

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NewCorkSeth I must say I think the location of the ref was important too. To him it must have looked much more like a clear goalscoring chance than those who had a side on view.

Real time, angle, previous incident. Yeah, it's the wrong call IMO but it's never been hard to see why he made it.

I'd be appealing both cards if I was Barnsley.


I know some ridiculous appeals get through but there should be a clear and obvious error involved, not just a difference of opinion.
The second yellow was also interesting and again the pictures make it really hard to see what actually happened. It’s possibly my imagination, but I think after the player goes to ground he realises that he’s out of the game, there is an attacker behind him and he just has a touch on the ball to make sure it doesn’t pop out behind him. Sort of thing the ref would probably spot but not be obvious to us given the quality of the picture.

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Re: BF I follow Barnsley

by Snowflake Royal » 20 Sep 2020 12:22

Nameless
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NewCorkSeth I must say I think the location of the ref was important too. To him it must have looked much more like a clear goalscoring chance than those who had a side on view.

Real time, angle, previous incident. Yeah, it's the wrong call IMO but it's never been hard to see why he made it.

I'd be appealing both cards if I was Barnsley.


I know some ridiculous appeals get through but there should be a clear and obvious error involved, not just a difference of opinion.
The second yellow was also interesting and again the pictures make it really hard to see what actually happened. It’s possibly my imagination, but I think after the player goes to ground he realises that he’s out of the game, there is an attacker behind him and he just has a touch on the ball to make sure it doesn’t pop out behind him. Sort of thing the ref would probably spot but not be obvious to us given the quality of the picture.

Forgot that was a second yellow.

I think there was a clear and obvious error on the first one, obviously.

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Re: BF I follow Barnsley

by Nameless » 20 Sep 2020 12:24

Snowflake Royal
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Snowflake Royal Real time, angle, previous incident. Yeah, it's the wrong call IMO but it's never been hard to see why he made it.

I'd be appealing both cards if I was Barnsley.


I know some ridiculous appeals get through but there should be a clear and obvious error involved, not just a difference of opinion.
The second yellow was also interesting and again the pictures make it really hard to see what actually happened. It’s possibly my imagination, but I think after the player goes to ground he realises that he’s out of the game, there is an attacker behind him and he just has a touch on the ball to make sure it doesn’t pop out behind him. Sort of thing the ref would probably spot but not be obvious to us given the quality of the picture.

Forgot that was a second yellow.

I think there was a clear and obvious error on the first one, obviously.


But there wasn’t. You just have a different opinion to the ref. There is no error of fact.


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Re: BF I follow Barnsley

by Snowflake Royal » 20 Sep 2020 12:25

Nameless
Snowflake Royal
Nameless
I know some ridiculous appeals get through but there should be a clear and obvious error involved, not just a difference of opinion.
The second yellow was also interesting and again the pictures make it really hard to see what actually happened. It’s possibly my imagination, but I think after the player goes to ground he realises that he’s out of the game, there is an attacker behind him and he just has a touch on the ball to make sure it doesn’t pop out behind him. Sort of thing the ref would probably spot but not be obvious to us given the quality of the picture.

Forgot that was a second yellow.

I think there was a clear and obvious error on the first one, obviously.


But there wasn’t. You just have a different opinion to the ref. There is no error of fact.

Here we go again. :roll:

Old Man Andrews

Re: BF I follow Barnsley

by Old Man Andrews » 20 Sep 2020 12:32

Snowflake Royal
Nameless
Snowflake Royal Forgot that was a second yellow.

I think there was a clear and obvious error on the first one, obviously.


But there wasn’t. You just have a different opinion to the ref. There is no error of fact.

Here we go again. :roll:

You didn't know until 5 minutes ago that clubs cannot appeal red cards as the result of a second bookable offence. You have absolutely no right to comment on football so don't try an belittle others.

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Re: BF I follow Barnsley

by Nameless » 20 Sep 2020 12:36

Snowflake Royal
Nameless
Snowflake Royal Forgot that was a second yellow.

I think there was a clear and obvious error on the first one, obviously.


But there wasn’t. You just have a different opinion to the ref. There is no error of fact.

Here we go again. :roll:


"??????
What are you on about ?
My statement was incontrovertible ! You are argueing that IN YOUR OPINION the keeper would have got to the ball before Joao. That is not fact ! The only fact is the referee decided the opposite.

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Re: BF I follow Barnsley

by Old Man Andrews » 20 Sep 2020 12:37

Ian being schooled.

Again.

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Re: BF I follow Barnsley

by Nameless » 20 Sep 2020 12:38

Old Man Andrews Ian being schooled.

Again.


Not really, we just see things differently ....

Although clearly I’m right :D

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Snowflake Royal
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Re: BF I follow Barnsley

by Snowflake Royal » 20 Sep 2020 12:41

Nameless
Old Man Andrews Ian being schooled.

Again.


Not really, we just see things differently ....

Although clearly I’m right :D

You don't need me to agree you're right to validate you Nameless, you're a real person, valid and valuable with or without it, right or wrong.

:wink:

Old Man Andrews

Re: BF I follow Barnsley

by Old Man Andrews » 20 Sep 2020 12:44

Nameless
Old Man Andrews Ian being schooled.

Again.


Not really, we just see things differently ....

Although clearly I’m right :D

You're 100% correct.

Ian doesn't understand football, we have seen further proof of this earlier today.

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