Let’s talk about passing it around the back.

[Hound]

So many games, points and goals conceded is being used with this tactic - our possession stats were absolutely ridiculous.

Here's a thought, goal kicks, all push up, kick it long and do your utmost to win the 1st, 2nd and 3rd ball from it, press and get it after it. Once won, then you play, hopefully in their half, because all we are doing is pass pass pass, pressure, hoof. Not many chances or plays are being converted from this tactic. Get it long, win it back.

i think thats exactly what i've just argued isnt true. One goal this season conceded from this tactic. Arguably 2 or 3 goals scored from using it.

Out of interest, how many times have we scored from a goal kick passing it around?

I can think of Derby where Rafael booted it downfield rather than passing it out, but can’t physically remember is scoring from “building from the back”

Not sure, sadly not got time to go back through all our games this season. I'd be interested to know as well though and also chance creation through it

[TiagoIlori]

Food for thought- playing out from the back has become increasingly common over the last few years in this league, many teams that go up do not play hoof ball, instead playing out from the back. Even Burnley in the premier league have started playing out from the back a bit more than they used to. It shows quite clearly the issue is how it’s being coached than the style itself.

[Hound]

So many games, points and goals conceded is being used with this tactic - our possession stats were absolutely ridiculous.

Here's a thought, goal kicks, all push up, kick it long and do your utmost to win the 1st, 2nd and 3rd ball from it, press and get it after it. Once won, then you play, hopefully in their half, because all we are doing is pass pass pass, pressure, hoof. Not many chances or plays are being converted from this tactic. Get it long, win it back.

i think thats exactly what i've just argued isnt true. One goal this season conceded from this tactic. Arguably 2 or 3 goals scored from using it.

1 goal against Stoke, plus the one that was inches from going in off the post, plus another near thing.
Blackburn one is related because we were looking to play out so the defence was out of position and the throw was a Rafael special to someone tightly marked. There wasn't a poor touch, it was awkward and just not on.

Earlier in the season we weren't doing it as much, making better decisions about when to try and mixed it up going long.

Please feel free to name some goals we've scored playing out under pressure that don't involve a long ball upfield. Because I can't think of any.

Sorry I'm not accepting the Blackburn one. Thats a long throw, that may as well have been a big kick. Thats not a result of playing out from the back. Would you really have rathered him just leathering it downfield than picking out our player on the half way line?

I can't think of any either to be honest, but as said above would be genuinely interested to know. Sadly I haven't the time to go back through our goals this year, though I doubt there's too many. That doesn't mean as an overall tactic it isnt working though.

[Hound]

Food for thought- playing out from the back has become increasingly common over the last few years in this league, many teams that go up do not play hoof ball, instead playing out from the back. Even Burnley in the premier league have started playing out from the back a bit more than they used to. It shows quite clearly the issue is how it’s being coached than the style itself.

yeah as mentioned the games moved on.

I imagine that the likes of Bournemouth, Brentford, Norwich, Swansea, Watford - basically all the teams that are in the mix this year bar Coliin's hoofball - will be doing it.

We've generally played it well this year - ok we did it very poorly on Saturday, but to be honest we did lots of things very poorly on Saturday.

[Snowflake Royal]

i think thats exactly what i've just argued isnt true. One goal this season conceded from this tactic. Arguably 2 or 3 goals scored from using it.

1 goal against Stoke, plus the one that was inches from going in off the post, plus another near thing.
Blackburn one is related because we were looking to play out so the defence was out of position and the throw was a Rafael special to someone tightly marked. There wasn't a poor touch, it was awkward and just not on.

Earlier in the season we weren't doing it as much, making better decisions about when to try and mixed it up going long.

Please feel free to name some goals we've scored playing out under pressure that don't involve a long ball upfield. Because I can't think of any.

Sorry I'm not accepting the Blackburn one. Thats a long throw, that may as well have been a big kick. Thats not a result of playing out from the back. Would you really have rathered him just leathering it downfield than picking out our player on the half way line?

I can't think of any either to be honest, but as said above would be genuinely interested to know. Sadly I haven't the time to go back through our goals this year, though I doubt there's too many. That doesn't mean as an overall tactic it isnt working though.

We'll have to agree to differ on Blackburn.

It's pretty poor you're saying there are multiple goals scored from playing out whilst you can't think of a single one.

[Hound]

1 goal against Stoke, plus the one that was inches from going in off the post, plus another near thing.
Blackburn one is related because we were looking to play out so the defence was out of position and the throw was a Rafael special to someone tightly marked. There wasn't a poor touch, it was awkward and just not on.

Earlier in the season we weren't doing it as much, making better decisions about when to try and mixed it up going long.

Please feel free to name some goals we've scored playing out under pressure that don't involve a long ball upfield. Because I can't think of any.

Sorry I'm not accepting the Blackburn one. Thats a long throw, that may as well have been a big kick. Thats not a result of playing out from the back. Would you really have rathered him just leathering it downfield than picking out our player on the half way line?

I can't think of any either to be honest, but as said above would be genuinely interested to know. Sadly I haven't the time to go back through our goals this year, though I doubt there's too many. That doesn't mean as an overall tactic it isnt working though.

We'll have to agree to differ on Blackburn.

It's pretty poor you're saying there are multiple goals scored from playing out whilst you can't think of a single one.

I didnt say that. I said we'd scored through teams pushing us high as a result of us of playing out from the back. Of which I've named a couple

Again its probably one to agree to disagree. But like I say, we've been successful so far this season, despite the last 3. Do people think significantly changing the way we play is the way to go? The last 3 defeats certainly haven't been because we've 'played out from the back'. Stoke at a push, but defo not the other 2

[paultheroyal]

Passing around the back is certainly the football DNA way. My son has it engrained in him at that's at U10 level.

[Hound]

Passing around the back is certainly the football DNA way. My son has it engrained in him at that's at U10 level.

Absolutely. And thats not just at Reading or wherever your son is.

Its not just about 'playing out from the back' which is a bit catch all, its more about every player inc the keeper being comfortable receiving the ball in any situation. Telling your big lads at the back to whack it as far as they can is long gone

[Old Man Andrews]

Passing around the back is certainly the football DNA way. My son has it engrained in him at that's at U10 level.

A lot of it comes from the fact we were so slow over here in terms of encouraging a passing game back in the 1990's. Back then we had small kids playing on full size pitches where as on the continent they would do 5v5 or 7v7 from the ages of 5-12 encouraging the tiki-taka style of play. Our kids were normally trained to kick the ball as hard and as far as they could up the pitch to the strikers because of the sheer size of the playing surface.
Once Spain started to be successful at international level the FA panicked and realised how far they were behind the rest so then went all out of passing football, changed the pitch sizes for kids and invented their DNA model. It has got to the point now where we have gone too far down the passing game avenue, kids aren't taught that sometimes it is ok to just clear a football or that long balls can be an option. Kids who aren't as capable on the ball are at a real disadvantage despite having other attributes.

[URZZZZ]

Sorry I'm not accepting the Blackburn one. Thats a long throw, that may as well have been a big kick. Thats not a result of playing out from the back. Would you really have rathered him just leathering it downfield than picking out our player on the half way line?

I can't think of any either to be honest, but as said above would be genuinely interested to know. Sadly I haven't the time to go back through our goals this year, though I doubt there's too many. That doesn't mean as an overall tactic it isnt working though.

We'll have to agree to differ on Blackburn.

It's pretty poor you're saying there are multiple goals scored from playing out whilst you can't think of a single one.

I didnt say that. I said we'd scored through teams pushing us high as a result of us of playing out from the back. Of which I've named a couple

Again its probably one to agree to disagree. But like I say, we've been successful so far this season, despite the last 3. Do people think significantly changing the way we play is the way to go? The last 3 defeats certainly haven't been because we've 'played out from the back'. Stoke at a push, but defo not the other 2

The problem isn’t necessarily “playing from the back” though and more so “playing from the back when it’s not on”

You watch Blackburn’s first goal again. Freeze the footage when Richards first receives the ball, he’s surrounded by two players. Quite simply, in that situation, the pass isn’t on, so you use a different option, which may involve just simply hoofing it upfield

Same thing on Saturday, there’s no pass on when Rafael has the ball so in that situation, you just get rid of it

So I don’t buy your “we’ve been successful doing it so far” theory. Because we haven’t been doing that. When the opposition have pressed us, instead of trying to beat the high press, we’ve just launched it forward into the space vacated by the high press and created opportunities. Hence the Derby goal. Hence the Barnsley red card. Hence the Wycombe/Rotherham goal etc

[Hound]

wouldnt necessarily disagree Urrzzz. But I think you're basically saying keep playing it out from the back but do it better? Make better decisions as to when we do it? We definitely haven't always whacked it forward when pressed. Otherwise those opportunities wouldnt have been there

I which case yes, Id fully agree. That Rafael pass on Saturday was just a bad pass, a big unenforced error. Its not the process thats wrong, its just the execution of it. And yes, there are times when we should have gone longer quickly on saturday, in the same way there were times when I think we should have kept possession longer rather than whacking it upfield to their 7ft CB

I don't think we played any different against Stoke in terms of what we were trying to do than any other game. We just did it badly.

looked back on the blackburn goal. When Richards receives the ball, he has Semedo level with him, Laurent and Moore between him and the goal. One man on him as you would expect anywhere in the pitch. He even had time to lay it off to Semedo and definitely Moore. He just makes an error. He definitely isnt surrounded by 2 players initially, though they do press well when he gets it.

[URZZZZ]

wouldnt necessarily disagree Urrzzz. But I think you're basically saying keep playing it out from the back but do it better? Make better decisions as to when we do it? We definitely haven't always whacked it forward when pressed

I which case yes, Id fully agree. That Rafael pass on Saturday was just a bad pass, a big unenforced error. Its not the process thats wrong, its just the execution of it. And yes, there are times when we should have gone longer quickly on saturday, in the same way there were times when I think we should have kept possession longer rather than whacking it upfield to their 7ft CB

I don't think we played any different against Stoke in terms of what we were trying to do than any other game. We just did it badly.

I think the main problem is Meite’s injury personally (after Moore perhaps). Forget the likes of Swift and Ejaria missing, they’re decent players but the likes of Aluko and Olise can deputise, hence beating Watford and Blackburn for example

By my reckoning, no one comes close to what Meite offers out on the right hand side. Technically he has flaws but he’s able to relieve pressure in a way no one else really can. I don’t think it’s a coincidence our record is 0-0-3 since his injury, as opposed to 6-1-0 when he’s started

But yes, I do think playing from the back is a viable option. It’s about using your brain and not just doing it for the sake of it. Thankfully, as you pointed out, it’s not like Stam’s stuff but we don’t want to get close to what his style was like where our players almost robotically would just keep it around the defence, causing unnecessary pressure on ourselves

[Hound]

wouldnt necessarily disagree Urrzzz. But I think you're basically saying keep playing it out from the back but do it better? Make better decisions as to when we do it? We definitely haven't always whacked it forward when pressed

I which case yes, Id fully agree. That Rafael pass on Saturday was just a bad pass, a big unenforced error. Its not the process thats wrong, its just the execution of it. And yes, there are times when we should have gone longer quickly on saturday, in the same way there were times when I think we should have kept possession longer rather than whacking it upfield to their 7ft CB

I don't think we played any different against Stoke in terms of what we were trying to do than any other game. We just did it badly.

I think the main problem is Meite’s injury personally (after Moore perhaps). Forget the likes of Swift and Ejaria missing, they’re decent players but the likes of Aluko and Olise can deputise, hence beating Watford and Blackburn for example

By my reckoning, no one comes close to what Meite offers out on the right hand side. Technically he has flaws but he’s able to relieve pressure in a way no one else really can. I don’t think it’s a coincidence our record is 0-0-3 since his injury, as opposed to 6-1-0 when he’s started

But yes, I do think playing from the back is a viable option. It’s about using your brain and not just doing it for the sake of it. Thankfully, as you pointed out, it’s not like Stam’s stuff but we don’t want to get close to what his style was like where our players almost robotically would just keep it around the defence, causing unnecessary pressure on ourselves

Completely agree on Meite. Huge loss - and realise how much I underrate him when he isnt there. Absolutely a pressure valve - not only can you put one on his head and he'll likely win it, but he is great at bulldozing the defender out the way and has the pace to stretch a defence.

Obviously Ovie's technical ability is crucial as well, and he is probably one who 'beats the press' more than anyone else. Swift is probably our best player at just ball retention. So all big losses.

Aluko has done reasonably well, but he doesn't have the speed of thought or vision or body strength of the others. Olise is quality, but better further forward.

Neither McIntyre, Gibson or Morro looks as comfortable on the ball as Moore who has put in some great long passes this season as well

[URZZZZ]

I just don't think having Swift/Ejaria would have made much of a difference on Saturday

Let's not forget, even with those two in the team last year, we looked poor in numerous games last season and there were plenty of games we didn't create enough chances. I guess you could put that down to an imbalance in midfield though and no real defined tactic. Will be intrigued to see the set up once everyone is back (looking like a couple of months away still though)

I'd argue Aluko is quicker mentally than Ejaria. His problem is his end product leaves a lot to be desired. Don't see him getting much of a go once everyone is back. Has been OK in his starts but not quite done enough

[TiagoIlori]

Food for thought- playing out from the back has become increasingly common over the last few years in this league, many teams that go up do not play hoof ball, instead playing out from the back. Even Burnley in the premier league have started playing out from the back a bit more than they used to. It shows quite clearly the issue is how it’s being coached than the style itself.

yeah as mentioned the games moved on.

I imagine that the likes of Bournemouth, Brentford, Norwich, Swansea, Watford - basically all the teams that are in the mix this year bar Coliin's hoofball - will be doing it.

We've generally played it well this year - ok we did it very poorly on Saturday, but to be honest we did lots of things very poorly on Saturday.

Heads drop far too easily when we don’t start well and concede, we really need to somehow teach them to stay more composed and believe. No style of play could fix that by itself.

[Hound]

Food for thought- playing out from the back has become increasingly common over the last few years in this league, many teams that go up do not play hoof ball, instead playing out from the back. Even Burnley in the premier league have started playing out from the back a bit more than they used to. It shows quite clearly the issue is how it’s being coached than the style itself.

yeah as mentioned the games moved on.

I imagine that the likes of Bournemouth, Brentford, Norwich, Swansea, Watford - basically all the teams that are in the mix this year bar Coliin's hoofball - will be doing it.

We've generally played it well this year - ok we did it very poorly on Saturday, but to be honest we did lots of things very poorly on Saturday.

Heads drop far too easily when we don’t start well and concede, we really need to somehow teach them to stay more composed and believe. No style of play could fix that by itself.

Potentially most disappointing section of a game this season was the 10 mins after we equalised against Cov

Should have been all over them but instead seemed to sit back and let them onto us

Don’t know if that was complacency, tactical, lethargy or what but if we continue to screw up I’ll see that as the turning point of the season

[3points]

IMO, the ball out from Rafael on Saturday to Richards was a viable option. But he both under hit it and mis-directed it. One thing I've noticed with Rafael is he has a tendency to "loft" that ball to the full back on the touchline rather than "pinging" it. The former allows any opponent time to either intercept or close down the recipient, putting him under pressure (and therefore more likely to make a mistake). Watching keepers like Ederson and Pickford, they put a lot more pace on the pass. It's a safer option for Rafael to over hit that ball than under hit it, as it will go out for a throw in. But kicking isn't his key strength though.

I think we miss the work rate of both Meite and Ejaria. Most people watch Ejaria's fancy footwork, but if you watch him when he doesn't have the ball (especially in a defensive transition phase), he gets back quickly and covers gaps or breaks up play more than most give him credit for. Without him (and Meite) doing that, it drags Rino and Laurent out of position, often covering for the full back who has pushed on.
It is also noticeable that since we've lost Tom Holmes' natural defensive instinct at right back we have been a lot more open and conceding at will. Also, for me, Semedo's defensive work remains too inconsistent - sometimes he's everywhere breaking up play, but other times he dawdles back - as was the case for the Coventry first goal when their midfielder was unmarked on the edge of the box and Semedo was still virtually in the centre circle.

Passing out requires both skill and confidence, but it also requires players having options. If the midfield is dynamic then the players have an outlet pass, but if the midfield is static it looks terrible and the player in possession often makes a mistake while under pressure. A good tactic to break a high press is to hit a longer ball as a high press requires the opposition to commit men forward, creating gaps in behind. Therefore, the type of ball Rafael tried to play on Saturday is a decent option if executed properly (which is clearly wasn't) as it stretches the defending team and potentially creates gaps for us to exploit.

[URZZZZ]

IMO, the ball out from Rafael on Saturday to Richards was a viable option. But he both under hit it and mis-directed it. One thing I've noticed with Rafael is he has a tendency to "loft" that ball to the full back on the touchline rather than "pinging" it. The former allows any opponent time to either intercept or close down the recipient, putting him under pressure (and therefore more likely to make a mistake). Watching keepers like Ederson and Pickford, they put a lot more pace on the pass. It's a safer option for Rafael to over hit that ball than under hit it, as it will go out for a throw in. But kicking isn't his key strength though.

I think we miss the work rate of both Meite and Ejaria. Most people watch Ejaria's fancy footwork, but if you watch him when he doesn't have the ball (especially in a defensive transition phase), he gets back quickly and covers gaps or breaks up play more than most give him credit for. Without him (and Meite) doing that, it drags Rino and Laurent out of position, often covering for the full back who has pushed on.
It is also noticeable that since we've lost Tom Holmes' natural defensive instinct at right back we have been a lot more open and conceding at will. Also, for me, Semedo's defensive work remains too inconsistent - sometimes he's everywhere breaking up play, but other times he dawdles back - as was the case for the Coventry first goal when their midfielder was unmarked on the edge of the box and Semedo was still virtually in the centre circle.

Passing out requires both skill and confidence, but it also requires players having options. If the midfield is dynamic then the players have an outlet pass, but if the midfield is static it looks terrible and the player in possession often makes a mistake while under pressure. A good tactic to break a high press is to hit a longer ball as a high press requires the opposition to commit men forward, creating gaps in behind. Therefore, the type of ball Rafael tried to play on Saturday is a decent option if executed properly (which is clearly wasn't) as it stretches the defending team and potentially creates gaps for us to exploit.

Good points all around

Thought it wasn’t just the midfield who were static, was also Joao and Puscas which didn’t help. Baldock changed that to a certain extent when he came on

[Lower West]

Once Spain started to be successful at international level the FA panicked and realised how far they were behind the rest .

Barcelona had an exceptional group of players progress through their academy. Serie A when it used to be on C4 on Sunday afternoons was equally as frustrating to watch.

[Millsy]

Will Incey stick with it?