MATCHWATCH : Middlesbrough (h)

[South Coast Royal]

I never buy that tired thing. OK you're a bit knackered after the game and might have picked up a bit of stretch here or there but you're running around for 90 minutes doing something you enjoy and want to do again, not gouging coal from a coal face on a ten hour shift, working in the burning heat of a steel mill in protective clothing, or on your feet for the whole day treating Covid patients.

It does seem a bit of an age thing over this "tired" business.

Younger posters like Hendo and even Nameless and a few others appear to set great store by modern fixation with performance stats, energy levels, diet, recovery periods etc. having major impact on performance.

Those a bit older tend to think of it as a job where players are expected to be at their peak for 90 minutes or for some weeks 180 minutes in that week , a not unreasonable expectation IMHO, and that maybe they concern themselves too much with whether they are prepared well enough for those battles.

Away from football and taking into account life experience I am convinced that people get tired because they are told that they should feel tired.

I would have thought that the prospect of playing Premier League football would be enough of a carrot to produce optimum levels of performance for a further 18 games over the next 3 months.
If it isn't then some of these may be in the wrong job and lack the desire to succeed, if for nothing else than they become set up for life financially by playing a season or two in the Premier League and have the opportunity to reach the peak of their profession..

BTW just because things are done in a modern way, e.g. rest and recovery, doesn't mean that performance results are automatically going to be better.
Perhaps sometimes there is too much thought and preparation meaning that the sportsmen (not always the brightest) lose sight of what they are there to do, win matches.
Of course with coaching badges etc. the danger is that the coaches are all taught the same things therefore the process of coaching and playing both become stagnant breeding automatons not able to think for themselves when that bit of extra is needed out on the pitch.

Players are definitely fitter than ever before but the product itself hasn't necessarily improved.
Waffle over, as old people do .

[Norfolk Royal]

I never buy that tired thing. OK you're a bit knackered after the game and might have picked up a bit of stretch here or there but you're running around for 90 minutes doing something you enjoy and want to do again, not gouging coal from a coal face on a ten hour shift, working in the burning heat of a steel mill in protective clothing, or on your feet for the whole day treating Covid patients.

It does seem a bit of an age thing over this "tired" business.

Younger posters like Hendo and even Nameless and a few others appear to set great store by modern fixation with performance stats, energy levels, diet, recovery periods etc. having major impact on performance.

Those a bit older tend to think of it as a job where players are expected to be at their peak for 90 minutes or for some weeks 180 minutes in that week , a not unreasonable expectation IMHO, and that maybe they concern themselves too much with whether they are prepared well enough for those battles.

Away from football and taking into account life experience I am convinced that people get tired because they are told that they should feel tired.

I would have thought that the prospect of playing Premier League football would be enough of a carrot to produce optimum levels of performance for a further 18 games over the next 3 months.
If it isn't then some of these may be in the wrong job and lack the desire to succeed, if for nothing else than they become set up for life financially by playing a season or two in the Premier League and have the opportunity to reach the peak of their profession..

BTW just because things are done in a modern way, e.g. rest and recovery, doesn't mean that performance results are automatically going to be better.
Perhaps sometimes there is too much thought and preparation meaning that the sportsmen (not always the brightest) lose sight of what they are there to do, win matches.
Of course with coaching badges etc. the danger is that the coaches are all taught the same things therefore the process of coaching and playing both become stagnant breeding automatons not able to think for themselves when that bit of extra is needed out on the pitch.

Players are definitely fitter than ever before but the product itself hasn't necessarily improved.
Waffle over, as old people do .

That's true although just because someone is older does not preclude them from understanding modern sports nutrition and training techniques. You're talking about marginal gains mainly though, as Chris Brailsford might have it, and I don't mean drugs.

The truth is it's about desire and well directed effort as you rightly pointed out. Did Middlesborough or Millwall look tired recently, they've played as many games as us. No they didn't.

[Mid Sussex Royal]

I never buy that tired thing. OK you're a bit knackered after the game and might have picked up a bit of stretch here or there but you're running around for 90 minutes doing something you enjoy and want to do again, not gouging coal from a coal face on a ten hour shift, working in the burning heat of a steel mill in protective clothing, or on your feet for the whole day treating Covid patients.

It does seem a bit of an age thing over this "tired" business.

Younger posters like Hendo and even Nameless and a few others appear to set great store by modern fixation with performance stats, energy levels, diet, recovery periods etc. having major impact on performance.

Those a bit older tend to think of it as a job where players are expected to be at their peak for 90 minutes or for some weeks 180 minutes in that week , a not unreasonable expectation IMHO, and that maybe they concern themselves too much with whether they are prepared well enough for those battles.

Away from football and taking into account life experience I am convinced that people get tired because they are told that they should feel tired.

I would have thought that the prospect of playing Premier League football would be enough of a carrot to produce optimum levels of performance for a further 18 games over the next 3 months.
If it isn't then some of these may be in the wrong job and lack the desire to succeed, if for nothing else than they become set up for life financially by playing a season or two in the Premier League and have the opportunity to reach the peak of their profession..

BTW just because things are done in a modern way, e.g. rest and recovery, doesn't mean that performance results are automatically going to be better.
Perhaps sometimes there is too much thought and preparation meaning that the sportsmen (not always the brightest) lose sight of what they are there to do, win matches.
Of course with coaching badges etc. the danger is that the coaches are all taught the same things therefore the process of coaching and playing both become stagnant breeding automatons not able to think for themselves when that bit of extra is needed out on the pitch.

Players are definitely fitter than ever before but the product itself hasn't necessarily improved.
Waffle over, as old people do .

That's true although just because someone is older does not preclude them from understanding modern sports nutrition and training techniques. You're talking about marginal gains mainly though, as Chris Brailsford might have it, and I don't mean drugs.

The truth is it's about desire and well directed effort as you rightly pointed out. Did Middlesborough or Millwall look tired recently, they've played as many games as us. No they didn't.

Boro agree, V Millwall they had a week off and we a tough game V Brentford on the Weds, and Rowett admitted their tactics were based on that fact

[RoyalBlue]

I never buy that tired thing. OK you're a bit knackered after the game and might have picked up a bit of stretch here or there but you're running around for 90 minutes doing something you enjoy and want to do again, not gouging coal from a coal face on a ten hour shift, working in the burning heat of a steel mill in protective clothing, or on your feet for the whole day treating Covid patients.

It does seem a bit of an age thing over this "tired" business.

Younger posters like Hendo and even Nameless and a few others appear to set great store by modern fixation with performance stats, energy levels, diet, recovery periods etc. having major impact on performance.

Those a bit older tend to think of it as a job where players are expected to be at their peak for 90 minutes or for some weeks 180 minutes in that week , a not unreasonable expectation IMHO, and that maybe they concern themselves too much with whether they are prepared well enough for those battles.

Away from football and taking into account life experience I am convinced that people get tired because they are told that they should feel tired.

I would have thought that the prospect of playing Premier League football would be enough of a carrot to produce optimum levels of performance for a further 18 games over the next 3 months.
If it isn't then some of these may be in the wrong job and lack the desire to succeed, if for nothing else than they become set up for life financially by playing a season or two in the Premier League and have the opportunity to reach the peak of their profession..

BTW just because things are done in a modern way, e.g. rest and recovery, doesn't mean that performance results are automatically going to be better.
Perhaps sometimes there is too much thought and preparation meaning that the sportsmen (not always the brightest) lose sight of what they are there to do, win matches.
Of course with coaching badges etc. the danger is that the coaches are all taught the same things therefore the process of coaching and playing both become stagnant breeding automatons not able to think for themselves when that bit of extra is needed out on the pitch.

Players are definitely fitter than ever before but the product itself hasn't necessarily improved.
Waffle over, as old people do .

As definitely one of the older posters on this forum, I'm siding with the youngsters on this one. What's more that knowledge and science really isn't that new. It was around and being talked about even back when I was competing at a reasonable level in athletics. It's just that science and technology nowadays makes it a lot easier to monitor and track fitness and performance.

I have no doubt at all that professional and top amateurs in all sports are fitter and finer tuned than their counterparts from even a decade ago, let along longer than that. The finer you tune something the greater the risk of it breaking if overused and/or pushed beyond limits.

[Brain Traysers]

Argument already made mate
They were good chances which should have at least resulted in shots on target.
We fluffed our lines
End of
.

You’re being unrealistic. A chance like Rino’s - about 20 yards out, slightly wide of goal - is unlikely to result in a shot on target and even less likely to result in a goal. I can’t remember the McIntyre one which probably says it all.

I'm not. There were plenty of good chances that with a clean strike on goal could have resulted in a goal. The opposition seem to take a different view to yours and regularly hit the target from that range and further. Like their second. And the fact you don't remember parts of the game does say it all.

You've actually managed to prove my point very well here - "There were plenty of good chances that with a clean strike on goal could have resulted in a goal."

The key bit you are missing is just how difficult it is to strike the ball cleanly and on target- we lead the division by hitting the target with 41% of shots - so 3 out of every 5 of our shots don't hit the target... From outside the box, an even higher percentage miss the target, hence why goals from outside the box are rare. Its so very easy to quickly forget every snatched effort sent high and wide - indeed, if Rino had sent it into row z people probably wouldn't still be discussing it as a "good" chance

We have had 184 shots from outside the box, and only scored with 10 (5.4%) - across the league there have been 120 goals from outside the box, from 4486 shots so, only 2.7% have gone in, or one every 37.

People are generally more familiar with probabilities in odds form - for the RFC numbers a shot outside the box is 18/1 or for the league its 37/1 - both long odds

[Snowflake Royal]

Christ is the spreadsheet wizard still going

[morganb]

Christ is the spreadsheet wizard still going

From Soho down to Brighton...

He's a spreadsheet wizard, there has to be a twist
A spreadsheet wizard's got such a supple wrist

[SCIAG]

I never buy that tired thing. OK you're a bit knackered after the game and might have picked up a bit of stretch here or there but you're running around for 90 minutes doing something you enjoy and want to do again, not gouging coal from a coal face on a ten hour shift, working in the burning heat of a steel mill in protective clothing, or on your feet for the whole day treating Covid patients.

It does seem a bit of an age thing over this "tired" business.

Younger posters like Hendo and even Nameless and a few others appear to set great store by modern fixation with performance stats, energy levels, diet, recovery periods etc. having major impact on performance.

Those a bit older tend to think of it as a job where players are expected to be at their peak for 90 minutes or for some weeks 180 minutes in that week , a not unreasonable expectation IMHO, and that maybe they concern themselves too much with whether they are prepared well enough for those battles.

Away from football and taking into account life experience I am convinced that people get tired because they are told that they should feel tired.

I would have thought that the prospect of playing Premier League football would be enough of a carrot to produce optimum levels of performance for a further 18 games over the next 3 months.
If it isn't then some of these may be in the wrong job and lack the desire to succeed, if for nothing else than they become set up for life financially by playing a season or two in the Premier League and have the opportunity to reach the peak of their profession..

BTW just because things are done in a modern way, e.g. rest and recovery, doesn't mean that performance results are automatically going to be better.
Perhaps sometimes there is too much thought and preparation meaning that the sportsmen (not always the brightest) lose sight of what they are there to do, win matches.
Of course with coaching badges etc. the danger is that the coaches are all taught the same things therefore the process of coaching and playing both become stagnant breeding automatons not able to think for themselves when that bit of extra is needed out on the pitch.

Players are definitely fitter than ever before but the product itself hasn't necessarily improved.
Waffle over, as old people do .

Think you’re trying to impose a narrative that isn’t particularly well supported. For one thing people like Nameless and RB are not exactly spring chickens.

You ever watch clips of old games? It’s really quite striking how quickly the quality of play improves. I remember thinking in 2006 how much football had improved as a result of Mourinho coming over, but if you look at matches from 2006 now it’s almost a different sport - no short goal kicks, very little pressing, most teams still playing 4-4-2, possession-based approaches considered a novelty rather than the norm. John Swift is a much more creative and technically gifted player than Steve Sidwell, who was considered the premier midfielder in this league.

I’m very cynical about anyone who claims to understand the motivations of a large group of people. We are much less good at understanding others than we believe ourselves to be. We frequently extrapolate from unrepresentative data points and over-generalise. It’s frankly bizarre to suggest that players forget that they are there to win matches or that they aren’t motivated to play at a higher level. They have competed against thousands to become professional footballers - most of them are driven young men.

Frankly I don’t claim to understand much of sports science, but the impact upon adoption by one club was such that all the others also adopted it to keep up. If sports science didn’t work then clubs wouldn’t waste money on it.

[Brain Traysers]

Christ is the spreadsheet wizard still going

Is the "expert in everything but unable to offer a coherent or logical-based argument" board member still spewing?

'it is bcoz I ses it iz' really doesn't add much value

[South Coast Royal]

I never buy that tired thing. OK you're a bit knackered after the game and might have picked up a bit of stretch here or there but you're running around for 90 minutes doing something you enjoy and want to do again, not gouging coal from a coal face on a ten hour shift, working in the burning heat of a steel mill in protective clothing, or on your feet for the whole day treating Covid patients.

It does seem a bit of an age thing over this "tired" business.

Younger posters like Hendo and even Nameless and a few others appear to set great store by modern fixation with performance stats, energy levels, diet, recovery periods etc. having major impact on performance.

Those a bit older tend to think of it as a job where players are expected to be at their peak for 90 minutes or for some weeks 180 minutes in that week , a not unreasonable expectation IMHO, and that maybe they concern themselves too much with whether they are prepared well enough for those battles.

Away from football and taking into account life experience I am convinced that people get tired because they are told that they should feel tired.

I would have thought that the prospect of playing Premier League football would be enough of a carrot to produce optimum levels of performance for a further 18 games over the next 3 months.
If it isn't then some of these may be in the wrong job and lack the desire to succeed, if for nothing else than they become set up for life financially by playing a season or two in the Premier League and have the opportunity to reach the peak of their profession..

BTW just because things are done in a modern way, e.g. rest and recovery, doesn't mean that performance results are automatically going to be better.
Perhaps sometimes there is too much thought and preparation meaning that the sportsmen (not always the brightest) lose sight of what they are there to do, win matches.
Of course with coaching badges etc. the danger is that the coaches are all taught the same things therefore the process of coaching and playing both become stagnant breeding automatons not able to think for themselves when that bit of extra is needed out on the pitch.

Players are definitely fitter than ever before but the product itself hasn't necessarily improved.
Waffle over, as old people do .

Think you’re trying to impose a narrative that isn’t particularly well supported. For one thing people like Nameless and RB are not exactly spring chickens.

You ever watch clips of old games? It’s really quite striking how quickly the quality of play improves. I remember thinking in 2006 how much football had improved as a result of Mourinho coming over, but if you look at matches from 2006 now it’s almost a different sport - no short goal kicks, very little pressing, most teams still playing 4-4-2, possession-based approaches considered a novelty rather than the norm. John Swift is a much more creative and technically gifted player than Steve Sidwell, who was considered the premier midfielder in this league.

I’m very cynical about anyone who claims to understand the motivations of a large group of people. We are much less good at understanding others than we believe ourselves to be. We frequently extrapolate from unrepresentative data points and over-generalise. It’s frankly bizarre to suggest that players forget that they are there to win matches or that they aren’t motivated to play at a higher level. They have competed against thousands to become professional footballers - most of them are driven young men.

Frankly I don’t claim to understand much of sports science, but the impact upon adoption by one club was such that all the others also adopted it to keep up. If sports science didn’t work then clubs wouldn’t waste money on it.

Well, there you go then-football is a different game altogether, sports science is everything and by your own admission YOU haven't got a clue about motivation and according to you nobody outside sport has either.
Fine.

No need to discuss this further as , with your lengthy experience of life you have all the answers-just let me, Norfolk and a few others that have worked and lived a bit longer live in ignorance as you clearly know best, condescension at its best.

BTW so many players are now soft ( the screaching and imploring looks at the ref in a "mum please help me" way when they suffer the mildest of fouls is pathetic, accentuated by no crowds in the stadia and viewers being able to hear everything) but society is soft, life is soft.
My upbringing was harder but my late father would (quite rightly) say that his generational upbringing was harder still.

Oh and , I love the idea that" clubs wouldn't waste money"-really?.

[Norfolk Royal]

It does seem a bit of an age thing over this "tired" business.

Younger posters like Hendo and even Nameless and a few others appear to set great store by modern fixation with performance stats, energy levels, diet, recovery periods etc. having major impact on performance.

Those a bit older tend to think of it as a job where players are expected to be at their peak for 90 minutes or for some weeks 180 minutes in that week , a not unreasonable expectation IMHO, and that maybe they concern themselves too much with whether they are prepared well enough for those battles.

Away from football and taking into account life experience I am convinced that people get tired because they are told that they should feel tired.

I would have thought that the prospect of playing Premier League football would be enough of a carrot to produce optimum levels of performance for a further 18 games over the next 3 months.
If it isn't then some of these may be in the wrong job and lack the desire to succeed, if for nothing else than they become set up for life financially by playing a season or two in the Premier League and have the opportunity to reach the peak of their profession..

BTW just because things are done in a modern way, e.g. rest and recovery, doesn't mean that performance results are automatically going to be better.
Perhaps sometimes there is too much thought and preparation meaning that the sportsmen (not always the brightest) lose sight of what they are there to do, win matches.
Of course with coaching badges etc. the danger is that the coaches are all taught the same things therefore the process of coaching and playing both become stagnant breeding automatons not able to think for themselves when that bit of extra is needed out on the pitch.

Players are definitely fitter than ever before but the product itself hasn't necessarily improved.
Waffle over, as old people do .

Think you’re trying to impose a narrative that isn’t particularly well supported. For one thing people like Nameless and RB are not exactly spring chickens.

You ever watch clips of old games? It’s really quite striking how quickly the quality of play improves. I remember thinking in 2006 how much football had improved as a result of Mourinho coming over, but if you look at matches from 2006 now it’s almost a different sport - no short goal kicks, very little pressing, most teams still playing 4-4-2, possession-based approaches considered a novelty rather than the norm. John Swift is a much more creative and technically gifted player than Steve Sidwell, who was considered the premier midfielder in this league.

I’m very cynical about anyone who claims to understand the motivations of a large group of people. We are much less good at understanding others than we believe ourselves to be. We frequently extrapolate from unrepresentative data points and over-generalise. It’s frankly bizarre to suggest that players forget that they are there to win matches or that they aren’t motivated to play at a higher level. They have competed against thousands to become professional footballers - most of them are driven young men.

Frankly I don’t claim to understand much of sports science, but the impact upon adoption by one club was such that all the others also adopted it to keep up. If sports science didn’t work then clubs wouldn’t waste money on it.

Well, there you go then-football is a different game altogether, sports science is everything and by your own admission YOU haven't got a clue about motivation and according to you nobody outside sport has either.
Fine.

No need to discuss this further as , with your lengthy experience of life you have all the answers-just let me, Norfolk and a few others that have worked and lived a bit longer live in ignorance as you clearly know best, condescension at its best.

BTW so many players are now soft ( the screaching and imploring looks at the ref in a "mum please help me" way when they suffer the mildest of fouls is pathetic, accentuated by no crowds in the stadia and viewers being able to hear everything) but society is soft, life is soft.
My upbringing was harder but my late father would (quite rightly) say that his generational upbringing was harder still.

Oh and , I love the idea that" clubs wouldn't waste money"-really?.

I’d question to some extent whether modern day players are really much fitter than most players from the 70s and 80s for instance. The gains if any for the modern footballer I would think are marginal. Look at some of the old training regimes practised by managers like Jack Charlton and John Bond. They had them running up and down the side of quarries and carrying sacks of coal over sand dunes. My guess is that if you asked the relatively pampered pros in the Premiership to do that these days they’d ring their lawyers.

[leon]

Think you’re trying to impose a narrative that isn’t particularly well supported. For one thing people like Nameless and RB are not exactly spring chickens.

You ever watch clips of old games? It’s really quite striking how quickly the quality of play improves. I remember thinking in 2006 how much football had improved as a result of Mourinho coming over, but if you look at matches from 2006 now it’s almost a different sport - no short goal kicks, very little pressing, most teams still playing 4-4-2, possession-based approaches considered a novelty rather than the norm. John Swift is a much more creative and technically gifted player than Steve Sidwell, who was considered the premier midfielder in this league.

I’m very cynical about anyone who claims to understand the motivations of a large group of people. We are much less good at understanding others than we believe ourselves to be. We frequently extrapolate from unrepresentative data points and over-generalise. It’s frankly bizarre to suggest that players forget that they are there to win matches or that they aren’t motivated to play at a higher level. They have competed against thousands to become professional footballers - most of them are driven young men.

Frankly I don’t claim to understand much of sports science, but the impact upon adoption by one club was such that all the others also adopted it to keep up. If sports science didn’t work then clubs wouldn’t waste money on it.

Well, there you go then-football is a different game altogether, sports science is everything and by your own admission YOU haven't got a clue about motivation and according to you nobody outside sport has either.
Fine.

No need to discuss this further as , with your lengthy experience of life you have all the answers-just let me, Norfolk and a few others that have worked and lived a bit longer live in ignorance as you clearly know best, condescension at its best.

BTW so many players are now soft ( the screaching and imploring looks at the ref in a "mum please help me" way when they suffer the mildest of fouls is pathetic, accentuated by no crowds in the stadia and viewers being able to hear everything) but society is soft, life is soft.
My upbringing was harder but my late father would (quite rightly) say that his generational upbringing was harder still.

Oh and , I love the idea that" clubs wouldn't waste money"-really?.

I’d question to some extent whether modern day players are really much fitter than most players from the 70s and 80s for instance. The gains if any for the modern footballer I would think are marginal. Look at some of the old training regimes practised by managers like Jack Charlton and John Bond. They had them running up and down the side of quarries and carrying sacks of coal over sand dunes. My guess is that if you asked the relatively pampered pros in the Premiership to do that these days they’d ring their lawyers.

AND they’d do it having consumed 10 pints the previous evening and spent all night in the casino.

[Norfolk Royal]

Exactly. Look at a player like Bobby Moore for instance. Apparently a legendary drinker but bested Pele in the heat of Mexico in 1970. Is anyone seriously suggesting he couldn’t play for us if teleported into 2021?

[Snowflake Royal]

I think it's safe to say one of the best players the country has produced could probably hack it in the second tier even if his fitness wasn't comparable. I mean look at Akinfenwa. He's hardly peak fitness.

It doesn't take much to look at old games and see they're played at different fitness levels to the current game.

[Franchise FC]

I think it's safe to say one of the best players the country has produced could probably hack it in the second tier even if his fitness wasn't comparable. I mean look at Akinfenwa. He's hardly peak fitness.

It doesn't take much to look at old games and see they're played at different fitness levels to the current game.

I don't think Akinfenwa is a good example.

He's VERY fit, but the bulk he has does not make him mobile

[Snowball]

I don't know if the science has been done for football but in rugby it has.

If you have two rugby players travelling at say, 14-second 100M pace when they collide
they impart a force X which is the two speeds multiplied together

That speed is 11.2 MPH so their COMBINED speed is 125 MPH

If they are running one second faster (13 seconds) their speed is 17.2 MPH each
and their connecting speed is 17.2 x 17.2 = 295 MPH

The point is, even increases in average speed of small amounts have large effects when players collide

Players train harder, drink less, eat better, probably sleep better. They learn how to run faster
and when they collide it is going to hurt more.

Most players play through injuries, carry niggles. if they are getting slightly nastier bangs
and with less days to recover they will be gradually breaking down.

This, for example http://www.andymcgeady.com/the-changing ... -of-rugby/

is not about individual improvements (ie players getting quicker) but it's meaningful

[Snowball]

Exactly. Look at a player like Bobby Moore for instance. Apparently a legendary drinker but bested Pele in the heat of Mexico in 1970. Is anyone seriously suggesting he couldn’t play for us if teleported into 2021?

When most players or teams are behaving the same way it evens out


But wasn't it Hungary who turned up at Wembley and started warming up
on the pitch and were LAUGHED AT by the crowd, then proceeded to beat England 3-6?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Match_of_ ... ball_match)

[bcubed]

Exactly. Look at a player like Bobby Moore for instance. Apparently a legendary drinker but bested Pele in the heat of Mexico in 1970. Is anyone seriously suggesting he couldn’t play for us if teleported into 2021?

When most players or teams are behaving the same way it evens out


But wasn't it Hungary who turned up at Wembley and started warming up
on the pitch and were LAUGHED AT by the crowd, then proceeded to beat England 3-6?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Match_of_ ... ball_match)

I'm pretty sure no one was drinking as heavily as our guys!!

[Pepe the Horseman]

Exactly. Look at a player like Bobby Moore for instance. Apparently a legendary drinker but bested Pele in the heat of Mexico in 1970. Is anyone seriously suggesting he couldn’t play for us if teleported into 2021?

Tbf footballers were pretty shite pre-1992. Reckon I could've bested Pele (probs not after a night out though).

[Snowflake Royal]

I think it's safe to say one of the best players the country has produced could probably hack it in the second tier even if his fitness wasn't comparable. I mean look at Akinfenwa. He's hardly peak fitness.

It doesn't take much to look at old games and see they're played at different fitness levels to the current game.

I don't think Akinfenwa is a good example.

He's VERY fit, but the bulk he has does not make him mobile

He's very strong.