Is the Championship becoming more predictable?

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linkenholtroyal
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Re: Is the Championship becoming more predictable?

by linkenholtroyal » 30 Apr 2021 13:25

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3points P&S (FFP) could also now becoming a factor in terms of teams not being able to financially challenge the relegated teams. Reading lost £45m last season and Dai Yongge has pumped in around £200m over 4-5 years he's been the owner; Sheff Weds, Derby, Forest have all had owners in recent years trying to buy success but this can only happen for 1 or 2 seasons before budgets have to be cut to comply with P&S regulations (open whole new debate/can of worms). If you don't make it in those 1-2 seasons then you're knackered for the next 3-4 years while squads are rebuilt.

The only difference between us and Forest, Weds etc is that they try to buy there way to success where as we rely heavily on our academy. Other than Puscas and Joao most of our signings have been free or academy products, we are heading in the right direction but the Thais over stretched with stupid overpaid signings we have been suffering with for years to come only Meite, Moore and Swift have been a success from that era. Without our academy we would be in league 1. Imagine a squad at the moment without Holmes, McIntyre, Richards, Olise, Rinhomota. And to a lesser extent Southwood as reserve keeper. Without them we would be in a much worse financial state having to buy players to fit those spots.


The big spending has nothing to do with the Thais really.

The big spending in wages and transfer fees has all been done by the Yongges. The current financial situation is all on them or more accurately, him.

It would be interesting to see which signings were under which owners ad how they have impacted long term. Also a damage gauge, but as said below how much of it was Gourlay leading them astray.

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Re: Is the Championship becoming more predictable?

by Vision » 30 Apr 2021 13:33

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linkenholtroyal The only difference between us and Forest, Weds etc is that they try to buy there way to success where as we rely heavily on our academy. Other than Puscas and Joao most of our signings have been free or academy products, we are heading in the right direction but the Thais over stretched with stupid overpaid signings we have been suffering with for years to come only Meite, Moore and Swift have been a success from that era. Without our academy we would be in league 1. Imagine a squad at the moment without Holmes, McIntyre, Richards, Olise, Rinhomota. And to a lesser extent Southwood as reserve keeper. Without them we would be in a much worse financial state having to buy players to fit those spots.


The big spending has nothing to do with the Thais really.

The big spending in wages and transfer fees has all been done by the Yongges. The current financial situation is all on them or more accurately, him.

What would you put that down to though, were they too trusting of Gourlay, especially with his background at Chelsea?


I think you've got to look at when he started to get involved.

In January of Stam's Play off season he'd clearly made the decision to buy us (even though it wasn't officially done until prior to the Play off Final itself ). We were in the play-off positions and he provided the Finance for the final push in that January transfer window, Illori plus several loans (Reece Oxford, Lewis Grabban, Jordan Mutch) and even Popa arrived that window on a hefty wage.

So I think he thinks its just a matter of time before we become a Premier League team. He saw himself as a Premier League Owner.

The appointment of Gourlay ( Chelsea and Man Utd on his CV ) suggests he still had that Premier League Mindset and our subsequent spending reflected that although ironically I do often wonder what would've happened had we coughed up for Oliveira when Stam wanted him rather than what we actually ended up with that post playoff summer.

Even post Gourlay, once he manouvered the money from the stadium deal, we threw a ton of money at Puscas and Joao. He also personally intervened over Moore and Loader potentially costing us millions.

Its why I don't think he ever sees relegation as a factor in dismissing managers (Stam aside probably and Gourlay probably ultimately made that call with Clement in mind as a replacement) . He's only looking at the big prize. Promotion.

I get the impression he's a proud man who doesn't want to walk away without getting what he wants and if the League allowed it, he'd continue throwing money at it until he got there. Gourlay was a disaster all in all but he's also a convenenient scapegoat to some degree. he was merely a symptom rather than the root cause.

I like Yongge and I do believe he's committed to us but he's really the only one to blame for the financial hole we find ourselves in and any inability to sign or keep what we need going forward because of it.

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Re: Is the Championship becoming more predictable?

by Vision » 30 Apr 2021 13:38

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linkenholtroyal The only difference between us and Forest, Weds etc is that they try to buy there way to success where as we rely heavily on our academy. Other than Puscas and Joao most of our signings have been free or academy products, we are heading in the right direction but the Thais over stretched with stupid overpaid signings we have been suffering with for years to come only Meite, Moore and Swift have been a success from that era. Without our academy we would be in league 1. Imagine a squad at the moment without Holmes, McIntyre, Richards, Olise, Rinhomota. And to a lesser extent Southwood as reserve keeper. Without them we would be in a much worse financial state having to buy players to fit those spots.


The big spending has nothing to do with the Thais really.

The big spending in wages and transfer fees has all been done by the Yongges. The current financial situation is all on them or more accurately, him.

It would be interesting to see which signings were under which owners ad how they have impacted long term. Also a damage gauge, but as said below how much of it was Gourlay leading them astray.


Meite Swift and Moore were under the Thais with Stam and BT. There were plenty of "misses" in that transfer window but on the whole it was pretty successful. Even more so in a financial sense if we'd cashed in on Moore and Swift when we had the opportunity.

Anything after that is when the Yongges started getting involved.

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Re: Is the Championship becoming more predictable?

by Sutekh » 30 Apr 2021 14:00

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linkenholtroyal The only difference between us and Forest, Weds etc is that they try to buy there way to success where as we rely heavily on our academy. Other than Puscas and Joao most of our signings have been free or academy products, we are heading in the right direction but the Thais over stretched with stupid overpaid signings we have been suffering with for years to come only Meite, Moore and Swift have been a success from that era. Without our academy we would be in league 1. Imagine a squad at the moment without Holmes, McIntyre, Richards, Olise, Rinhomota. And to a lesser extent Southwood as reserve keeper. Without them we would be in a much worse financial state having to buy players to fit those spots.


The big spending has nothing to do with the Thais really.

The big spending in wages and transfer fees has all been done by the Yongges. The current financial situation is all on them or more accurately, him.

What would you put that down to though, were they too trusting of Gourlay, especially with his background at Chelsea?


The Yongge’s arrived in the summer of 2017 after buying a 75% shareholding and the playing side was pretty awful from that point until Mark Bowen got the gig and started getting the players to achieve at least some of their potential.

Mr Gourlay arrived also in that summer, though to be fair to the Yongge’s having someone who was CEO at places like Chelsea and ManU interested in the role must have made it a really obvious appointment esp. off the back of the club being play off runners up and having a big name in Mr Stam as manager.

However his big club experience and approach didn’t fit a club in the lower leagues, perhaps if Reading had been in the PL with all the related financial benefits it would have worked out better.

It should be noted though that the owners do appear to have learned from the experience with first Nigel returning and now the seemingly quiet Dayong Pang running things and the financial issues are at last starting to work through the system. Despite the problems the owners have remained ambitious and have always been supportive of the managers - and reportedly do have the cash to back up their decisions.

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Re: Is the Championship becoming more predictable?

by Sutekh » 30 Apr 2021 14:02

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The big spending has nothing to do with the Thais really.

The big spending in wages and transfer fees has all been done by the Yongges. The current financial situation is all on them or more accurately, him.

It would be interesting to see which signings were under which owners ad how they have impacted long term. Also a damage gauge, but as said below how much of it was Gourlay leading them astray.


Meite Swift and Moore were under the Thais with Stam and BT. There were plenty of "misses" in that transfer window but on the whole it was pretty successful. Even more so in a financial sense if we'd cashed in on Moore and Swift when we had the opportunity.

Anything after that is when the Yongges started getting involved.


Swift and Moore both signed new deals subsequent to RG joining.


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Re: Is the Championship becoming more predictable?

by linkenholtroyal » 30 Apr 2021 14:07

Here is the permanent signings not doing loans.

Zigarevich signings-
Adrian Marriapa
Chris Gunter
Nick Blackman
Stephen Kelly
Gareth Mccleary
Daniel Carrico
Nicky Shorey
Hope Akpan
Stuart Taylor
Pavel Pogrepnyak
Danny Guthrie
Danny Williams
Wayne Bridge
Royston Drenthe
Chris Baird
Oliver Norwood
Anton Ferdinand
Simon Cox
Yakubu

Thais Signings
Orlando Sa
Paulo Hurtado
Dennis Rakels
Yann Kermorgant
Stephen Quinn
Ali AL Habsi
Paul Mcshane
Rowan Liburd
Jonathan Bond
Tiago Ilori
Tyler Blackett
Liam Moore
Roy Beerens
Adrian Popa
Danzell Gravenberch
Joey Van den Berg
Sandro Weiser
John Swift
Yakou Meite
Callum Harriot
Joseph Mendes
Anssi Jaakola



Dai Yonge Signings-
Sone Aluko
Vito Mannone
Modou Barrow
Leandro Bacuna
David Edwards
Pelle Clement
Jon Dadi Bodvarsson
Sam Baldock
Marc Mcnulty
Andy Yiadom
David Meyler
John oshea
Sam Walker
George Puscas
Lucas Joao
Charlie Adam
Michael Morrison
Rafael
Felipe Araruna
Ovie Ejaria
Josh Laurent

interesting list this Zigrarevich seemed to be a scatter gun approach with a lot of 'big name signings' that was meant to propel us back to the prem but no future development thought about did get us Mccleary and Gunter who played for nearly a decade and were amazing servants if on pricey wages.
The Thai signings on reflection were very calculated and have given us Meite, Swift and Moore long term and the great Kermorgant. they did not overspend on reflection but could have utilised our academy better.
Our current owners are interesting the first 2 seasons they got pulled in by Gourlay into buying a pile of big overpriced overhyped rejects (everyone down to Sam Walker) other than Yiadom and Oshea as a coach I can not say any of the rest made any impact at all.
The last 2 seasons have been much more calculated and all of the players have made an impact of sorts I am excited that we are working in the right direction now, also utilising the youth in the best route possibly giving them a route to the first team.

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Re: Is the Championship becoming more predictable?

by Vision » 30 Apr 2021 14:25

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linkenholtroyal It would be interesting to see which signings were under which owners ad how they have impacted long term. Also a damage gauge, but as said below how much of it was Gourlay leading them astray.


Meite Swift and Moore were under the Thais with Stam and BT. There were plenty of "misses" in that transfer window but on the whole it was pretty successful. Even more so in a financial sense if we'd cashed in on Moore and Swift when we had the opportunity.

Anything after that is when the Yongges started getting involved.


Swift and Moore both signed new deals subsequent to RG joining.


Tbf the question asked was "which signings were under which owners" so I'll stand with Swift and Moore were signed under the Thais.

If the question was which CEO gave them improved contracts , then RG becomes relevant.

I can't remember the exact timeline but I'm assuming Moore's improved deal was just after Dai personally kiboshed his move away.

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Re: Is the Championship becoming more predictable?

by Snowflake Royal » 30 Apr 2021 15:46

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Meite Swift and Moore were under the Thais with Stam and BT. There were plenty of "misses" in that transfer window but on the whole it was pretty successful. Even more so in a financial sense if we'd cashed in on Moore and Swift when we had the opportunity.

Anything after that is when the Yongges started getting involved.


Swift and Moore both signed new deals subsequent to RG joining.


Tbf the question asked was "which signings were under which owners" so I'll stand with Swift and Moore were signed under the Thais.

If the question was which CEO gave them improved contracts , then RG becomes relevant.

I can't remember the exact timeline but I'm assuming Moore's improved deal was just after Dai personally kiboshed his move away.
It was. Basically bought him off by putting him on a lower PL wage.

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Re: Is the Championship becoming more predictable?

by linkenholtroyal » 01 May 2021 15:00

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Meite Swift and Moore were under the Thais with Stam and BT. There were plenty of "misses" in that transfer window but on the whole it was pretty successful. Even more so in a financial sense if we'd cashed in on Moore and Swift when we had the opportunity.

Anything after that is when the Yongges started getting involved.


Swift and Moore both signed new deals subsequent to RG joining.


Tbf the question asked was "which signings were under which owners" so I'll stand with Swift and Moore were signed under the Thais.

If the question was which CEO gave them improved contracts , then RG becomes relevant.

I can't remember the exact timeline but I'm assuming Moore's improved deal was just after Dai personally kiboshed his move away.

I did the timeline just above your entry.


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Re: Is the Championship becoming more predictable?

by Lower West » 01 May 2021 15:21

linkenholtroyal Here is the permanent signings not doing loans.

Zigarevich signings-
Adrian Marriapa
Chris Gunter
Nick Blackman
Stephen Kelly
Gareth Mccleary
Daniel Carrico
Nicky Shorey
Hope Akpan
Stuart Taylor
Pavel Pogrepnyak
Danny Guthrie
Danny Williams
Wayne Bridge
Royston Drenthe
Chris Baird
Oliver Norwood
Anton Ferdinand
Simon Cox
Yakubu

Thais Signings
Orlando Sa
Paulo Hurtado
Dennis Rakels
Yann Kermorgant
Stephen Quinn
Ali AL Habsi
Paul Mcshane
Rowan Liburd
Jonathan Bond
Tiago Ilori
Tyler Blackett
Liam Moore
Roy Beerens
Adrian Popa
Danzell Gravenberch
Joey Van den Berg
Sandro Weiser
John Swift
Yakou Meite
Callum Harriot
Joseph Mendes
Anssi Jaakola



Dai Yonge Signings-
Sone Aluko
Vito Mannone
Modou Barrow
Leandro Bacuna
David Edwards
Pelle Clement
Jon Dadi Bodvarsson
Sam Baldock
Marc Mcnulty
Andy Yiadom
David Meyler
John oshea
Sam Walker
George Puscas
Lucas Joao
Charlie Adam
Michael Morrison
Rafael
Felipe Araruna
Ovie Ejaria
Josh Laurent

interesting list this Zigrarevich seemed to be a scatter gun approach with a lot of 'big name signings' that was meant to propel us back to the prem but no future development thought about did get us Mccleary and Gunter who played for nearly a decade and were amazing servants if on pricey wages.
The Thai signings on reflection were very calculated and have given us Meite, Swift and Moore long term and the great Kermorgant. they did not overspend on reflection but could have utilised our academy better.
Our current owners are interesting the first 2 seasons they got pulled in by Gourlay into buying a pile of big overpriced overhyped rejects (everyone down to Sam Walker) other than Yiadom and Oshea as a coach I can not say any of the rest made any impact at all.
The last 2 seasons have been much more calculated and all of the players have made an impact of sorts I am excited that we are working in the right direction now, also utilising the youth in the best route possibly giving them a route to the first team.


Wasn't Vydra on loan for a £2 million salary?

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Re: Is the Championship becoming more predictable?

by WestYorksRoyal » 02 May 2021 14:33

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The big spending has nothing to do with the Thais really.

The big spending in wages and transfer fees has all been done by the Yongges. The current financial situation is all on them or more accurately, him.

What would you put that down to though, were they too trusting of Gourlay, especially with his background at Chelsea?


I think you've got to look at when he started to get involved.

In January of Stam's Play off season he'd clearly made the decision to buy us (even though it wasn't officially done until prior to the Play off Final itself ). We were in the play-off positions and he provided the Finance for the final push in that January transfer window, Illori plus several loans (Reece Oxford, Lewis Grabban, Jordan Mutch) and even Popa arrived that window on a hefty wage.

So I think he thinks its just a matter of time before we become a Premier League team. He saw himself as a Premier League Owner.

The appointment of Gourlay ( Chelsea and Man Utd on his CV ) suggests he still had that Premier League Mindset and our subsequent spending reflected that although ironically I do often wonder what would've happened had we coughed up for Oliveira when Stam wanted him rather than what we actually ended up with that post playoff summer.

Even post Gourlay, once he manouvered the money from the stadium deal, we threw a ton of money at Puscas and Joao. He also personally intervened over Moore and Loader potentially costing us millions.

Its why I don't think he ever sees relegation as a factor in dismissing managers (Stam aside probably and Gourlay probably ultimately made that call with Clement in mind as a replacement) . He's only looking at the big prize. Promotion.

I get the impression he's a proud man who doesn't want to walk away without getting what he wants and if the League allowed it, he'd continue throwing money at it until he got there. Gourlay was a disaster all in all but he's also a convenenient scapegoat to some degree. he was merely a symptom rather than the root cause.

I like Yongge and I do believe he's committed to us but he's really the only one to blame for the financial hole we find ourselves in and any inability to sign or keep what we need going forward because of it.

Hard to disagree with this to be honest. As you mention, Ilori and Popa were pre-Gourlay and symptomatic of the poor signings we made over that couple of years.

But the recruitment has improved dramatically over the past couple of years, so hopefully they're learning as they're going.

I remember a game against Leicester City shortly after their owners took over, where a team managed by Sven Goran Eriksson and containing the likes of Yakubu and Darius Vassell got torn to shreds by Kebe and Long. At the end of the season they spent £5.5m on Mills. :lol: But they learned on the job and look at them now. I guess the difference was that their early errors didn't hammer them under FFP for years.

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