Points Deduction Incoming!

776 posts
Nameless
Hob Nob Addict
Posts: 8851
Joined: 23 Aug 2013 12:25

Re: Points Deduction Incoming!

by Nameless » 04 Oct 2021 12:55

tidus_mi2 The whole thing about the rumoured 6-9pts is it would be on par or worse than the punishment Sheff Wed received and the argument right there would be, have we broken the rules worse than they did?


Depends whether you think Sheffield Wed tried to cheat the system by backdating the sale of their ground or not.
Certainly the Derby situation is very murky and they have been uncooperative and charged with multiple additional infringements.
If, as it seems, we have been open, cooperative and shown a significant willingness to get back within the limits I think we’ll be given a lesser punishment than Derby and as several people have suggested a 6 point +3 suspended or even a little more weighted towards the suspended end would seem likely. The mere fact that there are ongoing negotiations seems to make it highly unlikely we’ll just get hit with the maximum 9

User avatar
Snowflake Royal
Hob Nob Legend
Posts: 39401
Joined: 20 Jun 2017 17:51

Re: Points Deduction Incoming!

by Snowflake Royal » 04 Oct 2021 13:21

RoyalBlue
paultheroyal
Hound assume they are still negotiating the punishment. If that journo hadn't tweeted, no one would be any the wiser.


Yeah, so true, and club have given no indication.


Quite frankly I think it's ludicrous that 'negotiations' can go on for this long, if that is what is happening.

That's how investigations work. They're slow. Thorough. Especially for things as messy as this.

I don’t know this process, but I expect it involves a separate panel who decide guilt and penalty after and independent to the investigators. For which the club get to make representations.

And seeing a large part of it will be about a sustainable business plan to avoid future failings, that's hardly simple. With the club wanting to push to do as much as they can to stay competitive and the FL wanting financial sustainability.

It's a fuk ton more complicated than what I do, and that can take a couple of months to have the hearing, complete the record and issue the decision depending on schedules and availability. And if that decision involves an action plan that can take months more.

I know we live in the twitter age. But justice isn't delivered in a tweet in 30 seconds. Its slow and ponderous.

Stranded
Hob Nob Subscriber
Hob Nob Subscriber
Posts: 19587
Joined: 14 Apr 2004 12:42
Location: Propping up the bar in the Nags

Re: Points Deduction Incoming!

by Stranded » 04 Oct 2021 13:42

Snowflake Royal
RoyalBlue
paultheroyal
Yeah, so true, and club have given no indication.


Quite frankly I think it's ludicrous that 'negotiations' can go on for this long, if that is what is happening.

That's how investigations work. They're slow. Thorough. Especially for things as messy as this.

I don’t know this process, but I expect it involves a separate panel who decide guilt and penalty after and independent to the investigators. For which the club get to make representations.

And seeing a large part of it will be about a sustainable business plan to avoid future failings, that's hardly simple. With the club wanting to push to do as much as they can to stay competitive and the FL wanting financial sustainability.

It's a fuk ton more complicated than what I do, and that can take a couple of months to have the hearing, complete the record and issue the decision depending on schedules and availability. And if that decision involves an action plan that can take months more.

I know we live in the twitter age. But justice isn't delivered in a tweet in 30 seconds. Its slow and ponderous.


From what I have read, we were offered the opportunity to reach an "Agreed Decision" in line with Article 85 of the EFL rule book. This actually speeds up the process as we a) accept guilt and b) work with the EFL to agree the penalty and also set out any future obligations (i.e. business plan).

It could be that we still don't come to an agreement in which case it will go to a panel to agree. Once the sanction has been agreed, the EFL will write to the club confirming it and the reasons behind the sanction - the club need to accept that within 14 days else it goes to the independent commission.

So in short, if we are in discussions, the investigation is done (or not needed as we pleaded guilty off the bat) and the only hold up is getting the penalty sorted - which is lMO likely to be a wrangle on budgets going forward rather than the nature of any deduction.

User avatar
Snowflake Royal
Hob Nob Legend
Posts: 39401
Joined: 20 Jun 2017 17:51

Re: Points Deduction Incoming!

by Snowflake Royal » 04 Oct 2021 14:57

Stranded
Snowflake Royal
RoyalBlue
Quite frankly I think it's ludicrous that 'negotiations' can go on for this long, if that is what is happening.

That's how investigations work. They're slow. Thorough. Especially for things as messy as this.

I don’t know this process, but I expect it involves a separate panel who decide guilt and penalty after and independent to the investigators. For which the club get to make representations.

And seeing a large part of it will be about a sustainable business plan to avoid future failings, that's hardly simple. With the club wanting to push to do as much as they can to stay competitive and the FL wanting financial sustainability.

It's a fuk ton more complicated than what I do, and that can take a couple of months to have the hearing, complete the record and issue the decision depending on schedules and availability. And if that decision involves an action plan that can take months more.

I know we live in the twitter age. But justice isn't delivered in a tweet in 30 seconds. Its slow and ponderous.


From what I have read, we were offered the opportunity to reach an "Agreed Decision" in line with Article 85 of the EFL rule book. This actually speeds up the process as we a) accept guilt and b) work with the EFL to agree the penalty and also set out any future obligations (i.e. business plan).

It could be that we still don't come to an agreement in which case it will go to a panel to agree. Once the sanction has been agreed, the EFL will write to the club confirming it and the reasons behind the sanction - the club need to accept that within 14 days else it goes to the independent commission.

So in short, if we are in discussions, the investigation is done (or not needed as we pleaded guilty off the bat) and the only hold up is getting the penalty sorted - which is lMO likely to be a wrangle on budgets going forward rather than the nature of any deduction.

You'd still need the investigation to establish severity and get to the plea of guilt.

But yeah. This is basically my point. It's complex and time consuming.

Millsy
Hob Nob Super-Addict
Posts: 10022
Joined: 16 Jul 2004 18:36
Location: Running from The Left

Re: Points Deduction Incoming!

by Millsy » 04 Oct 2021 14:58

Can we please hire Man Shitty's lawyers.

Thanks.


User avatar
PieEater
Hob Nob Subscriber
Hob Nob Subscriber
Posts: 6428
Joined: 14 Apr 2004 15:42
Location: Comfortably numb

Re: Points Deduction Incoming!

by PieEater » 06 Oct 2021 13:56

It depends on how realistic the EFL are with the business plan, we have players signed on 3 yr contracts with massive wages. They can't ask us to sell those players as there's no guarantee we could shift any of them. So the business plan may continue to breach FFP limits because we are saddled with this expensive dross. At the same time our assets are going or will go for nothing as we can't renew contracts.

So we may be negotiating future breaches with this plan with dependencies/forecasts of player sales.

WestYorksRoyal
Hob Nob Addict
Posts: 5393
Joined: 15 Apr 2019 19:16

Re: Points Deduction Incoming!

by WestYorksRoyal » 06 Oct 2021 14:32

PieEater It depends on how realistic the EFL are with the business plan, we have players signed on 3 yr contracts with massive wages. They can't ask us to sell those players as there's no guarantee we could shift any of them. So the business plan may continue to breach FFP limits because we are saddled with this expensive dross. At the same time our assets are going or will go for nothing as we can't renew contracts.

So we may be negotiating future breaches with this plan with dependencies/forecasts of player sales.

Which expensive wages are we stuck with (i.e. higher than we'd realistically offer new signings now)?

My thinking is:
2022 - Swift, Rafael
2023 - Moore, Joao
2024 - Puscas

Possibly Yiadom and Meite too, though I expect they're probably on more reasonable wages. They are both due to expire in 2022, and I hope we could afford to keep them on reasonable wages in the current environment. You need to factor in the amortisation of transfer fees for Joao and Puscas too.

The rest of the squad have been signed since we've taken up a more sensible approach to wages and deals.

Agree we may still struggle to stay within FFP limits until the end of 2023 due to existing commitments, so I expect the ongoing negotiations are around the business plan. Given we've already spent several windows under an embargo and are on the verge of accepting a points deduction, you'd hope the EFL will be pragmatic and not punish us for decisions made in 2018 and 2019 AGAIN.

User avatar
Zip
Hob Nob Legend
Posts: 22408
Joined: 30 Dec 2017 16:39

Re: Points Deduction Incoming!

by Zip » 06 Oct 2021 15:21

WestYorksRoyal
PieEater It depends on how realistic the EFL are with the business plan, we have players signed on 3 yr contracts with massive wages. They can't ask us to sell those players as there's no guarantee we could shift any of them. So the business plan may continue to breach FFP limits because we are saddled with this expensive dross. At the same time our assets are going or will go for nothing as we can't renew contracts.

So we may be negotiating future breaches with this plan with dependencies/forecasts of player sales.

Which expensive wages are we stuck with (i.e. higher than we'd realistically offer new signings now)?

My thinking is:
2022 - Swift, Rafael
2023 - Moore, Joao
2024 - Puscas

Possibly Yiadom and Meite too, though I expect they're probably on more reasonable wages. They are both due to expire in 2022, and I hope we could afford to keep them on reasonable wages in the current environment. You need to factor in the amortisation of transfer fees for Joao and Puscas too.

The rest of the squad have been signed since we've taken up a more sensible approach to wages and deals.

Agree we may still struggle to stay within FFP limits until the end of 2023 due to existing commitments, so I expect the ongoing negotiations are around the business plan. Given we've already spent several windows under an embargo and are on the verge of accepting a points deduction, you'd hope the EFL will be pragmatic and not punish us for decisions made in 2018 and 2019 AGAIN.


Yak’s contract expires 2023

User avatar
linkenholtroyal
Hob Nob Regular
Posts: 1443
Joined: 09 Jan 2015 16:18
Location: anywhere but where you want me

Re: Points Deduction Incoming!

by linkenholtroyal » 06 Oct 2021 20:51

WestYorksRoyal
PieEater It depends on how realistic the EFL are with the business plan, we have players signed on 3 yr contracts with massive wages. They can't ask us to sell those players as there's no guarantee we could shift any of them. So the business plan may continue to breach FFP limits because we are saddled with this expensive dross. At the same time our assets are going or will go for nothing as we can't renew contracts.

So we may be negotiating future breaches with this plan with dependencies/forecasts of player sales.

Which expensive wages are we stuck with (i.e. higher than we'd realistically offer new signings now)?

My thinking is:
2022 - Swift, Rafael
2023 - Moore, Joao
2024 - Puscas

Possibly Yiadom and Meite too, though I expect they're probably on more reasonable wages. They are both due to expire in 2022, and I hope we could afford to keep them on reasonable wages in the current environment. You need to factor in the amortisation of transfer fees for Joao and Puscas too.

The rest of the squad have been signed since we've taken up a more sensible approach to wages and deals.

Agree we may still struggle to stay within FFP limits until the end of 2023 due to existing commitments, so I expect the ongoing negotiations are around the business plan. Given we've already spent several windows under an embargo and are on the verge of accepting a points deduction, you'd hope the EFL will be pragmatic and not punish us for decisions made in 2018 and 2019 AGAIN.

I just can’t see how are wage bill is that horrific anymore, we are suffering from previous poor decisions on wages in previous years. I think our situation will be acceptable going forward. The key part is that they allow us to take our punishment and be able to offer contracts to our players of the future.

In 2 years time Southwood, Bristow, McIntyre, Holmes, Rinhomota, Ejaria, Laurent, Azeez, would walk the championship we just need to keep them.


SCIAG
Hob Nob Addict
Posts: 6362
Joined: 17 Jun 2008 17:43
Location: Liburd for England

Re: Points Deduction Incoming!

by SCIAG » 06 Oct 2021 21:21

Millsy Can we please hire Man Shitty's lawyers.

Thanks.

We need the EFL's permission to hire lawyers and they will reject any who don't work for free.

User avatar
Snowflake Royal
Hob Nob Legend
Posts: 39401
Joined: 20 Jun 2017 17:51

Re: Points Deduction Incoming!

by Snowflake Royal » 06 Oct 2021 21:34

We could easily be paying:

Moore - £30k
Swift - £25k
Cabral - £20k
Ejaria - £20k
Joao - £18k
Meite - £18k
Puscas - £18k
Yiadom - £16k
£165k = £8.5m

Morrison - £12k
Rahman - £8.5k
Araruna - £10k
McIntyre - £10k
Holmes - £8k
Laurent - £12k
Rinomhota - £8k
Dele-Bashiru - £8.5k
Hoilett - £8k
Southwood - £6k
Tetek - £4k
Halilovic - £8k
Bristow - £2k
Drinkwater - £8.5k
Dann - £8k
Azeez - £4k
£125.5k = £6.5m

That's £15m for the first team squad. Add in Academy and coaches and we could reasonably be knocking in around £18m to £20m. Which means we'd still be making a loss. And that would have come down about £13m in two seasons.

Much better but we could do with a couple of years of profit.

Esteban
Member
Posts: 787
Joined: 16 Jul 2012 16:09

Re: Points Deduction Incoming!

by Esteban » 06 Oct 2021 22:09

Snowflake Royal We could easily be paying:

Moore - £30k
Swift - £25k
Cabral - £20k
Ejaria - £20k
Joao - £18k
Meite - £18k
Puscas - £18k
Yiadom - £16k
£165k = £8.5m

Morrison - £12k
Rahman - £8.5k
Araruna - £10k
McIntyre - £10k
Holmes - £8k
Laurent - £12k
Rinomhota - £8k
Dele-Bashiru - £8.5k
Hoilett - £8k
Southwood - £6k
Tetek - £4k
Halilovic - £8k
Bristow - £2k
Drinkwater - £8.5k
Dann - £8k
Azeez - £4k
£125.5k = £6.5m

That's £15m for the first team squad. Add in Academy and coaches and we could reasonably be knocking in around £18m to £20m. Which means we'd still be making a loss. And that would have come down about £13m in two seasons.

Much better but we could do with a couple of years of profit.


The sale of Olise hopefully helps. If we sell on Ejaria, Puscas and one of Joao or Rino, we may not be too far off. We may also be relegated, of course...

Forbury Lion
Hob Nob Subscriber
Hob Nob Subscriber
Posts: 8640
Joined: 14 Apr 2004 08:37
Location: https://youtu.be/c4sX57ZUhzc

Re: Points Deduction Incoming!

by Forbury Lion » 07 Oct 2021 11:43

Is the points deduction and embago thing on a sliding scale? If not, maybe chuck £200m into the club now and take the hit.


User avatar
linkenholtroyal
Hob Nob Regular
Posts: 1443
Joined: 09 Jan 2015 16:18
Location: anywhere but where you want me

Re: Points Deduction Incoming!

by linkenholtroyal » 07 Oct 2021 11:53

Esteban
Snowflake Royal We could easily be paying:

Moore - £30k
Swift - £25k
Cabral - £20k
Ejaria - £20k
Joao - £18k
Meite - £18k
Puscas - £18k
Yiadom - £16k
£165k = £8.5m

Morrison - £12k
Rahman - £8.5k
Araruna - £10k
McIntyre - £10k
Holmes - £8k
Laurent - £12k
Rinomhota - £8k
Dele-Bashiru - £8.5k
Hoilett - £8k
Southwood - £6k
Tetek - £4k
Halilovic - £8k
Bristow - £2k
Drinkwater - £8.5k
Dann - £8k
Azeez - £4k
£125.5k = £6.5m

That's £15m for the first team squad. Add in Academy and coaches and we could reasonably be knocking in around £18m to £20m. Which means we'd still be making a loss. And that would have come down about £13m in two seasons.

Much better but we could do with a couple of years of profit.


The sale of Olise hopefully helps. If we sell on Ejaria, Puscas and one of Joao or Rino, we may not be too far off. We may also be relegated, of course...

But this only works for a short period if we cant tie down players to multi year contracts then we will never recoup any costs from player sales. FFP is potentially going to cripple us by not allowing us to have assets. I totally agree with a wage cap or a overall max amount of wages we can be allowed to spend as a club, but if we can only offer one year contracts we may aswell give up now.

User avatar
RoyalBlue
Hob Nob Subscriber
Hob Nob Subscriber
Posts: 11676
Joined: 13 Apr 2004 22:39
Location: Developed a pathological hatred of snakes on 14/10/19

Re: Points Deduction Incoming!

by RoyalBlue » 07 Oct 2021 12:48

linkenholtroyal
Esteban
Snowflake Royal We could easily be paying:

Moore - £30k
Swift - £25k
Cabral - £20k
Ejaria - £20k
Joao - £18k
Meite - £18k
Puscas - £18k
Yiadom - £16k
£165k = £8.5m

Morrison - £12k
Rahman - £8.5k
Araruna - £10k
McIntyre - £10k
Holmes - £8k
Laurent - £12k
Rinomhota - £8k
Dele-Bashiru - £8.5k
Hoilett - £8k
Southwood - £6k
Tetek - £4k
Halilovic - £8k
Bristow - £2k
Drinkwater - £8.5k
Dann - £8k
Azeez - £4k
£125.5k = £6.5m

That's £15m for the first team squad. Add in Academy and coaches and we could reasonably be knocking in around £18m to £20m. Which means we'd still be making a loss. And that would have come down about £13m in two seasons.

Much better but we could do with a couple of years of profit.


The sale of Olise hopefully helps. If we sell on Ejaria, Puscas and one of Joao or Rino, we may not be too far off. We may also be relegated, of course...

But this only works for a short period if we cant tie down players to multi year contracts then we will never recoup any costs from player sales. FFP is potentially going to cripple us by not allowing us to have assets. I totally agree with a wage cap or a overall max amount of wages we can be allowed to spend as a club, but if we can only offer one year contracts we may aswell give up now.


And that is why FFP is totally unfit for purpose. It makes matters worse, not better.

User avatar
Snowflake Royal
Hob Nob Legend
Posts: 39401
Joined: 20 Jun 2017 17:51

Re: Points Deduction Incoming!

by Snowflake Royal » 07 Oct 2021 12:52

We could always have not broken the rules or done more to mitigate it, then we wouldn't be in this position.

We'll have to wait and see what happens, but a loss of all the big earners isn’t necessarily doom. Its not like our best performers have only been high cost players.

And it's not like even paying substantially lower wages we can’t attract promising players whose value may increase.

Its also not like we've been prevented from extending contracts. See McIntyre.

User avatar
Sutekh
Hob Nob Super-Addict
Posts: 18386
Joined: 12 Feb 2014 14:05
Location: Undiscovered pyramid somewhere in Egypt

Re: Points Deduction Incoming!

by Sutekh » 07 Oct 2021 14:13

See STAR’s structured dialogue meeting notes linked in the thread below:

viewtopic.php?f=10&p=5164883&sid=c21cabccb6fd2e3fe2a0277dc09eda50#p5164883

Basically, unless the FL change the rules, it sounds like Reading are going to be hamstrung by this mess until season 2022/23

Tilehurstsouthbank
Hob Nob Regular
Posts: 1373
Joined: 25 Mar 2013 14:13
Location: Flying the Blue and White flag in Farnham

Re: Points Deduction Incoming!

by Tilehurstsouthbank » 07 Oct 2021 14:25

Sutekh See STAR’s structured dialogue meeting notes linked in the thread below:

https://www.royals.org/forum/viewtopic. ... 0#p5164883

Basically, unless the FL change the rules, it sounds like Reading are going to be hamstrung by this mess until season 2022/23


That's discouraging.

Stranded
Hob Nob Subscriber
Hob Nob Subscriber
Posts: 19587
Joined: 14 Apr 2004 12:42
Location: Propping up the bar in the Nags

Re: Points Deduction Incoming!

by Stranded » 07 Oct 2021 14:30

Sutekh See STAR’s structured dialogue meeting notes linked in the thread below:

https://www.royals.org/forum/viewtopic. ... 0#p5164883

Basically, unless the FL change the rules, it sounds like Reading are going to be hamstrung by this mess until season 2022/23


Interesting*

Confirmation then that a points deduction is definitely happening this season then but positive that the EFL are apparently trying to help us as we've been working with them. Also a positive that we seem likely to meet the requirements this year though we could be in points deduction territory again the season after.

Also positive that there are no blocks on offering new deals to those who are coming out of contract.

Overall, I feel slightly encouraged by that but aware that it is going to be a bumpy path unless we somehow get promoted in the next season or two.

User avatar
Zip
Hob Nob Legend
Posts: 22408
Joined: 30 Dec 2017 16:39

Re: Points Deduction Incoming!

by Zip » 07 Oct 2021 14:34

Stranded
Sutekh See STAR’s structured dialogue meeting notes linked in the thread below:

https://www.royals.org/forum/viewtopic. ... 0#p5164883

Basically, unless the FL change the rules, it sounds like Reading are going to be hamstrung by this mess until season 2022/23


Interesting*

Confirmation then that a points deduction is definitely happening this season then but positive that the EFL are apparently trying to help us as we've been working with them. Also a positive that we seem likely to meet the requirements this year though we could be in points deduction territory again the season after.

Also positive that there are no blocks on offering new deals to those who are coming out of contract.

Overall, I feel slightly encouraged by that but aware that it is going to be a bumpy path unless we somehow get promoted in the next season or two.


Yes sort of agree but the potential points deduction next season too is a big blow.

776 posts

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], East Grinstead Royal, GloryDaze, Jammy Dodger, Royality creeps In, WestYorksRoyal and 415 guests

It is currently 28 Mar 2024 19:55