Ince out!

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AthleticoSpizz
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Re: Ince out!

by AthleticoSpizz » 04 Feb 2023 19:57

Snowflake Royal Just to be clear, Ince took us from where we'd just been on a 7 game losing streak and 11 game winless run, with a points deduction, looking very like relegation.

To 21st.

And now has us 16th and looking safe.

With a massively restricted wage budget. Including one defender who hasn't played a minute taking up almost 10% of it.

And some of us aren't willing to see what he can do with his hands untied?
agree 100%

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Re: Ince out!

by Brogue » 04 Feb 2023 20:23

We are only 6 points off the playoffs and our next 6 games are Sunderland (a), Rotherham (h), Cardiff (a), Blackpool (h), Middlesbrough (a), Sheffield United (h)

All them games are winnable including sheff utd if they continue their form free fall

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Re: Ince out!

by karbota » 04 Feb 2023 20:46

Brogue We are only 6 points off the playoffs and our next 6 games are Sunderland (a), Rotherham (h), Cardiff (a), Blackpool (h), Middlesbrough (a), Sheffield United (h)

All them games are winnable including sheff utd if they continue their form free fall


Wake up you Luddites the Parky machine keeps on winning.

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Re: Ince out!

by Vision » 05 Feb 2023 07:30

AthleticoSpizz
Snowflake Royal Just to be clear, Ince took us from where we'd just been on a 7 game losing streak and 11 game winless run, with a points deduction, looking very like relegation.

To 21st.

And now has us 16th and looking safe.

With a massively restricted wage budget. Including one defender who hasn't played a minute taking up almost 10% of it.

And some of us aren't willing to see what he can do with his hands untied?
agree 100%


Don't want to be nit-picky because I agree with the general sentiment but the bit in bold simply isn't true. We drew at Peterboro and won at Preston directly before Pauno left and Ince was barely through the door when we then beat Birmingham so I'm not sure he can claim that one really. . Just my opinion but with a few key players returning from injury I think we'd have been just about ok with regard to relegation even with Pauno staying.

The big positive difference, and what Ince has been outstanding with, between Pauno and Ince is how they manage those above them. Pauno had no middle man and wasn't strong enough to stand up to the owner. Ince pretty early on identified what needed to change as far as running the club was concerned and subsequently Bowen came in as a like minded facilitator.

What I'm getting a little bit tired of is the inferiority complex Ince seems to be installing in the team. All we seem to hear is how many great players the opposition have or have just signed and how many players he can't pick. It's no wonder we start every game as if we're lucky to get a 0-0 or nick a 1-0.

I know the perceived wisdom is that coming from 2-0 down shows "character" but I'd argue it's actually a lot easier if you've nothing to lose. In my opinion it takes as much, if not more, "character" to be brave enough from the beginning of a game.

The first hour or so Saturday we were absolutely dismal and unfortunately it's become the norm in recent games. We're not world beaters by any means but we've a better squad of players/talent than people are making out.

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Re: Ince out!

by blythspartan » 05 Feb 2023 10:05

Personally, I’d like PInce to be given a chance next season once the transfer embargo has been lifted. I don’t think we should underestimate what he’s achieved so far and he’s played a pivotal part in changing the direction of the football club. Plus, without PInce we wouldn’t have TInce who’s been our best player this season.

Do I think he’s the greatest tactician? Probably not, but I shall judge him based on the team he assembles next season without the current restrictions. If he keeps us up this season he’ll be up there with the likes of Coppell and McDermott for me, as one of our best ever managers.


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Re: Ince out!

by Snowflake Royal » 05 Feb 2023 10:23

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AthleticoSpizz
Snowflake Royal Just to be clear, Ince took us from where we'd just been on a 7 game losing streak and 11 game winless run, with a points deduction, looking very like relegation.

To 21st.

And now has us 16th and looking safe.

With a massively restricted wage budget. Including one defender who hasn't played a minute taking up almost 10% of it.

And some of us aren't willing to see what he can do with his hands untied?
agree 100%


Don't want to be nit-picky because I agree with the general sentiment but the bit in bold simply isn't true. We drew at Peterboro and won at Preston directly before Pauno left and Ince was barely through the door when we then beat Birmingham so I'm not sure he can claim that one really. . Just my opinion but with a few key players returning from injury I think we'd have been just about ok with regard to relegation even with Pauno staying.

The big positive difference, and what Ince has been outstanding with, between Pauno and Ince is how they manage those above them. Pauno had no middle man and wasn't strong enough to stand up to the owner. Ince pretty early on identified what needed to change as far as running the club was concerned and subsequently Bowen came in as a like minded facilitator.

What I'm getting a little bit tired of is the inferiority complex Ince seems to be installing in the team. All we seem to hear is how many great players the opposition have or have just signed and how many players he can't pick. It's no wonder we start every game as if we're lucky to get a 0-0 or nick a 1-0.

I know the perceived wisdom is that coming from 2-0 down shows "character" but I'd argue it's actually a lot easier if you've nothing to lose. In my opinion it takes as much, if not more, "character" to be brave enough from the beginning of a game.

The first hour or so Saturday we were absolutely dismal and unfortunately it's become the norm in recent games. We're not world beaters by any means but we've a better squad of players/talent than people are making out.

I worded it carefully, I didn't say it was immediately prior to Ince taking over, or that we were on those runs when he took over. We absolutely had only just been on those runs. Yeah they ended before Ince came... it's still the context in which he took over.


I know the players said they didn't know Paunovic was going, but we saw a completely different performance from them in that last win, they may not have been told but I'm convinced the atmosphere at the club was clear he was off and that released the pressure.

Ince had very little time to implement anything for his first win, but imo he didn’t have to. He just had to instill a different attitude and confidence, and that can be done in minutes.


I agree it's easy to play without consequence at 0-2 down. But the pressure mounts once you've got 1 back and the other team know they're under threat and your dander is up. It is character to keep the comeback on, make it and then protect it, and even nearly win. Yes, we do need to start better.

I disagree we were awful for the first hour. We were definitely the better team after the first 10-15 minutes to their first goal, then had a wobble and then started the second half badly again.

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Re: Ince out!

by RoyalBlue » 05 Feb 2023 12:48

karbota
Brogue We are only 6 points off the playoffs and our next 6 games are Sunderland (a), Rotherham (h), Cardiff (a), Blackpool (h), Middlesbrough (a), Sheffield United (h)

All them games are winnable including sheff utd if they continue their form free fall


Wake up you Luddites the Parky machine keeps on winning.


Look at the resources he's been given in comparison to the rest of the league though. He wouldn't get that at Reading even when the embargo is lifted.

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Re: Ince out!

by TiagoIlori » 05 Feb 2023 12:58

He’s come in and is doing the job he’s been asked to do, arguably beyond that. There’s a lot of very valid criticism about him, but talk of sacking him mid season is silly.

I can think of dozens of teams who had just as bad resources or even better than us and had better managers do significantly worse than Paul Ince (touch wood).

Sit down with him in the summer, if it becomes obvious there is no long term future with him then make the decision. He deserves to at least see out the season unless there is a dramatic Pauno style collapse which has not yet happened.

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Re: Ince out!

by YorkshireRoyal99 » 05 Feb 2023 16:23

It's really quite mental that this conversation about replacing Ince keeps coming up. Limited resources but we've built a great spirit around the club for a change and it's a team that, if/when survival is confirmed, most fans would be pretty proud of. It's all a bit limited, but so what? We aren't the only club that are, even though we've got it worst than most.

The injury situation has improved since the World Cup break and we've got a reasonable amount so he doesn't have the same excuses as what Pauno did if it begins to go wrong, but whilst its been a while since we last won, take heart from yesterday, take the positives and see if that garners any momentum. This is a season where we just need to get over the line and we are far, far exceeding that.


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Re: Ince out!

by RoyalBlue » 05 Feb 2023 18:39

YorkshireRoyal99 It's really quite mental that this conversation about replacing Ince keeps coming up. Limited resources but we've built a great spirit around the club for a change and it's a team that, if/when survival is confirmed, most fans would be pretty proud of. It's all a bit limited, but so what? We aren't the only club that are, even though we've got it worst than most.



You cannot continue to survive, let alone thrive on great spirit alone. You need a core of good, talented players who are well coached and a management/coaching team that have more than just the 'fighting spirit' tool in their toolbox.

Yes, we'll be more than happy if we survive this season, although Ince's record over the past 18 games suggests we may have squeaky bums for some time before that is confirmed. However, we then have to move onwards and upwards and IMO Ince is not the manager to ensure that happens.

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Re: Ince out!

by RoyalBlue » 05 Feb 2023 18:42

TiagoIlori He’s come in and is doing the job he’s been asked to do, arguably beyond that. There’s a lot of very valid criticism about him, but talk of sacking him mid season is silly.

I can think of dozens of teams who had just as bad resources or even better than us and had better managers do significantly worse than Paul Ince (touch wood).

Sit down with him in the summer, if it becomes obvious there is no long term future with him then make the decision. He deserves to at least see out the season unless there is a dramatic Pauno style collapse which has not yet happened.


Are we not already in that stage without many realising it (thanks to the very strong start to the season)? The performance graph over the past 18 games would show a pretty dramatic slide with just four wins.

I'm not calling for him to go yet but alarm bells should be starting to ring and he needs to begin silencing them.

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Re: Ince out!

by TiagoIlori » 05 Feb 2023 19:04

RoyalBlue
TiagoIlori He’s come in and is doing the job he’s been asked to do, arguably beyond that. There’s a lot of very valid criticism about him, but talk of sacking him mid season is silly.

I can think of dozens of teams who had just as bad resources or even better than us and had better managers do significantly worse than Paul Ince (touch wood).

Sit down with him in the summer, if it becomes obvious there is no long term future with him then make the decision. He deserves to at least see out the season unless there is a dramatic Pauno style collapse which has not yet happened.


Are we not already in that stage without many realising it (thanks to the very strong start to the season)? The performance graph over the past 18 games would show a pretty dramatic slide with just four wins.

I'm not calling for him to go yet but alarm bells should be starting to ring and he needs to begin silencing them.

Or you can say 3 wins, 3 draws and 3 losses in 9 (roughly 1.33 points a game or 61 points over 46) which shows a sign of recovery after a difficult October and November and just had a difficult run of games. The squad is very thin and struggled with injuries throughout the season, it was inevitable at some point there would be a tough run.

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Re: Ince out!

by Vision » 05 Feb 2023 19:12

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AthleticoSpizz agree 100%


Don't want to be nit-picky because I agree with the general sentiment but the bit in bold simply isn't true. We drew at Peterboro and won at Preston directly before Pauno left and Ince was barely through the door when we then beat Birmingham so I'm not sure he can claim that one really. . Just my opinion but with a few key players returning from injury I think we'd have been just about ok with regard to relegation even with Pauno staying.

The big positive difference, and what Ince has been outstanding with, between Pauno and Ince is how they manage those above them. Pauno had no middle man and wasn't strong enough to stand up to the owner. Ince pretty early on identified what needed to change as far as running the club was concerned and subsequently Bowen came in as a like minded facilitator.

What I'm getting a little bit tired of is the inferiority complex Ince seems to be installing in the team. All we seem to hear is how many great players the opposition have or have just signed and how many players he can't pick. It's no wonder we start every game as if we're lucky to get a 0-0 or nick a 1-0.

I know the perceived wisdom is that coming from 2-0 down shows "character" but I'd argue it's actually a lot easier if you've nothing to lose. In my opinion it takes as much, if not more, "character" to be brave enough from the beginning of a game.

The first hour or so Saturday we were absolutely dismal and unfortunately it's become the norm in recent games. We're not world beaters by any means but we've a better squad of players/talent than people are making out.

I worded it carefully, I didn't say it was immediately prior to Ince taking over, or that we were on those runs when he took over. We absolutely had only just been on those runs. Yeah they ended before Ince came... it's still the context in which he took over.


I know the players said they didn't know Paunovic was going, but we saw a completely different performance from them in that last win, they may not have been told but I'm convinced the atmosphere at the club was clear he was off and that released the pressure.

Ince had very little time to implement anything for his first win, but imo he didn’t have to. He just had to instill a different attitude and confidence, and that can be done in minutes.


I agree it's easy to play without consequence at 0-2 down. But the pressure mounts once you've got 1 back and the other team know they're under threat and your dander is up. It is character to keep the comeback on, make it and then protect it, and even nearly win. Yes, we do need to start better.

I disagree we were awful for the first hour. We were definitely the better team after the first 10-15 minutes to their first goal, then had a wobble and then started the second half badly again.


Hmm That run ended two games prior (3 games if you include Birmingham) so your "Just been on a run of " is very suggestive but if that's not what you meant , fair enough.

I'd agree that the atmosphere would change with the removal of the manager , just as much around the fans as much as with the players. I do think though that the draw at our relegation rivals which stopped the run of defeats was more of a catalyst for the Preston and Birmingham wins rather than a disputed rumour that the manager was already on his way out. I guess we'll never know.

All opinions of course and I generally agree with most of yours but I'm not sure how anyone could suggest we were anything but dismal for an hour of that game. We created one scuffed shot and from the resulting corner had a cross cleared from the 6 yard box. Aside from that we did absolutely nothing despite being a goal and then 2 goals down. The moment Azeez walked on the pitch the whole complexion of the game changed.

And unfortunately that passivity at the start of games is becoming a concerning habit. For me at least.


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Re: Ince out!

by Ascotexgunner » 05 Feb 2023 19:24

I think this conversation is at the wrong time. We have Rotherham, Cardiff and Blackpool which I would expect at least 6points. After those games we need to take a raincheck and discuss.

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Re: Ince out!

by YorkshireRoyal99 » 05 Feb 2023 20:36

RoyalBlue
YorkshireRoyal99 It's really quite mental that this conversation about replacing Ince keeps coming up. Limited resources but we've built a great spirit around the club for a change and it's a team that, if/when survival is confirmed, most fans would be pretty proud of. It's all a bit limited, but so what? We aren't the only club that are, even though we've got it worst than most.



You cannot continue to survive, let alone thrive on great spirit alone. You need a core of good, talented players who are well coached and a management/coaching team that have more than just the 'fighting spirit' tool in their toolbox.

Yes, we'll be more than happy if we survive this season, although Ince's record over the past 18 games suggests we may have squeaky bums for some time before that is confirmed. However, we then have to move onwards and upwards and IMO Ince is not the manager to ensure that happens.


But that's the task though. We've had a core of good, talented players for a while and it's got us nowhere fast really. I'm not saying I don't necessarily agree, but I also think we need to get into reality a little bit here as well. I saw a comment above about some getting fed up of the mantra of everyone else having "more" resource than us, but that's just reality. I'm sure Ince reiterates the message to keep everyone on the same page and to align expectations with reality.

Yes, going forward I'm hoping we do add more quality and not just fighting spirit, but this season so far we've built a pretty solid platform and if one good run of 10 or so games ultimately keeps us up, then fair enough. 17 points from our last 18 games isn't great, but that's 0.94 points per game, making that 16 from our last 17 games which would take us to 54 and comfortably safe. That's if we don't see an improvement on that as well, which we very much might do. We could be looking at this differently come the end of the month.

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Re: Ince out!

by Stranded » 05 Feb 2023 20:46

TiagoIlori
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TiagoIlori He’s come in and is doing the job he’s been asked to do, arguably beyond that. There’s a lot of very valid criticism about him, but talk of sacking him mid season is silly.

I can think of dozens of teams who had just as bad resources or even better than us and had better managers do significantly worse than Paul Ince (touch wood).

Sit down with him in the summer, if it becomes obvious there is no long term future with him then make the decision. He deserves to at least see out the season unless there is a dramatic Pauno style collapse which has not yet happened.


Are we not already in that stage without many realising it (thanks to the very strong start to the season)? The performance graph over the past 18 games would show a pretty dramatic slide with just four wins.

I'm not calling for him to go yet but alarm bells should be starting to ring and he needs to begin silencing them.

Or you can say 3 wins, 3 draws and 3 losses in 9 (roughly 1.33 points a game or 61 points over 46) which shows a sign of recovery after a difficult October and November and just had a difficult run of games. The squad is very thin and struggled with injuries throughout the season, it was inevitable at some point there would be a tough run.


The 4 in 18 is, whilst correct, massively disingenuous as it ignores how the results have been split.

We had that tough run after Huddersfield, Norwich H, QPR A, WBA H, Swansea A, Bristol C H, Burnley A, Luton A, Preston H, Watford A.

We all knew that was a tough run, at a tough time with a stretched squad but since then as said we are W3 D3 L3, which whilst not amazing is actually the 10th best record over thst time.

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Re: Ince out!

by Notts Royal » 05 Feb 2023 21:07

To me it’s pretty clear cut - keep him til the end of the season & then dispense with. Yes he’s done a reasonable job with the hand he’s been dealt with. But then his team selections are really poor, so I don’t think I’d trust him with his own players simply because he puts square pegs into round holes needlessly

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Re: Ince out!

by Royal_jimmy » 05 Feb 2023 21:12

I want Ince to get the season regardless unless we drop into the bottom 3. I just think we need to not rule out looking elsewhere to see if we can find a manager who can take us forward who is better tactically. I don't want Ince to become Pauno and end up hated by the fan base. He's a terrific bloke.
Last edited by Royal_jimmy on 05 Feb 2023 21:24, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Ince out!

by YorkshireRoyal99 » 05 Feb 2023 21:13

Notts Royal To me it’s pretty clear cut - keep him til the end of the season & then dispense with. Yes he’s done a reasonable job with the hand he’s been dealt with. But then his team selections are really poor, so I don’t think I’d trust him with his own players simply because he puts square pegs into round holes needlessly


He's not had much options though and I'm sure outside of restrictions we would look against "square pegs in round holes".

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Re: Ince out!

by TiagoIlori » 05 Feb 2023 21:24

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Are we not already in that stage without many realising it (thanks to the very strong start to the season)? The performance graph over the past 18 games would show a pretty dramatic slide with just four wins.

I'm not calling for him to go yet but alarm bells should be starting to ring and he needs to begin silencing them.

Or you can say 3 wins, 3 draws and 3 losses in 9 (roughly 1.33 points a game or 61 points over 46) which shows a sign of recovery after a difficult October and November and just had a difficult run of games. The squad is very thin and struggled with injuries throughout the season, it was inevitable at some point there would be a tough run.


The 4 in 18 is, whilst correct, massively disingenuous as it ignores how the results have been split.

We had that tough run after Huddersfield, Norwich H, QPR A, WBA H, Swansea A, Bristol C H, Burnley A, Luton A, Preston H, Watford A.

We all knew that was a tough run, at a tough time with a stretched squad but since then as said we are W3 D3 L3, which whilst not amazing is actually the 10th best record over thst time.

Exactly that. Statistics are meaningless without the context and can easily be twisted.

Feel like people have gotten carried away with our start and have forgotten how bad it looked in pre season, hence have unfairly heightened expectations forgetting how bad the situation was in pre season.

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