Ince out!

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Re: Ince out!

by Royal_jimmy » 05 Feb 2023 21:27

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TiagoIlori Or you can say 3 wins, 3 draws and 3 losses in 9 (roughly 1.33 points a game or 61 points over 46) which shows a sign of recovery after a difficult October and November and just had a difficult run of games. The squad is very thin and struggled with injuries throughout the season, it was inevitable at some point there would be a tough run.


The 4 in 18 is, whilst correct, massively disingenuous as it ignores how the results have been split.

We had that tough run after Huddersfield, Norwich H, QPR A, WBA H, Swansea A, Bristol C H, Burnley A, Luton A, Preston H, Watford A.

We all knew that was a tough run, at a tough time with a stretched squad but since then as said we are W3 D3 L3, which whilst not amazing is actually the 10th best record over thst time.

Exactly that. Statistics are meaningless without the context and can easily be twisted.

Feel like people have gotten carried away with our start and have forgotten how bad it looked in pre season, hence have unfairly heightened expectations forgetting how bad the situation was in pre season.


Yes we've had a hard run of games. However Ince has made a lot of questionable substitutions and I don't like the negative tactics at home. However we have had a good home record. I am just worried we'll struggle again next season when we won't have financial constraints against us because he fails to build a good team.

We also have to remember Bowen must take a lot of credit for the signings we've made and our season.

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Re: Ince out!

by Stranded » 05 Feb 2023 21:32

Royal_jimmy
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The 4 in 18 is, whilst correct, massively disingenuous as it ignores how the results have been split.

We had that tough run after Huddersfield, Norwich H, QPR A, WBA H, Swansea A, Bristol C H, Burnley A, Luton A, Preston H, Watford A.

We all knew that was a tough run, at a tough time with a stretched squad but since then as said we are W3 D3 L3, which whilst not amazing is actually the 10th best record over thst time.

Exactly that. Statistics are meaningless without the context and can easily be twisted.

Feel like people have gotten carried away with our start and have forgotten how bad it looked in pre season, hence have unfairly heightened expectations forgetting how bad the situation was in pre season.


Yes we've had a hard run of games. However Ince has made a lot of questionable substitutions and I don't like the negative tactics at home. However we have had a good home record. I am just worried we'll struggle again next season when we won't have financial constraints against us because he fails to build a good team.

We also have to remember Bowen must take a lot of credit for the signings we've made and our season.


Yes and Bowen & Carey will lead recruitment again. Ince will have input, as he will have had this year but there will be a plan.

There is no evolution of the side this year. It is about as short term as you can get in modern football. We have thrown together the best we can get and hope we can fashion some kind of side out of it. Ince deserves credit for managing to do that.

Around 15 players will leave this summer, we have no idea what the side looks like come August but, assuming we stay up, the 3 men in charge have earned the right to begin the proper rebuild.

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Re: Ince out!

by AthleticoSpizz » 05 Feb 2023 21:47

Spot-on Stranded.

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Re: Ince out!

by karbota » 05 Feb 2023 21:55

karbota What a fantastic performance from Parkys all British Wrexham team, so unjust to concede a last min equalizer, Sheffield totally humiliated.

Remind me again of the results of our last result vs Sheffield Utd.

Phil Parkinson is now the number one choice to replace Paul Ince.


However, the RTGs try to dress it up 4 from 18 is relegation form.

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Re: Ince out!

by Snowflake Royal » 06 Feb 2023 00:14

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Don't want to be nit-picky because I agree with the general sentiment but the bit in bold simply isn't true. We drew at Peterboro and won at Preston directly before Pauno left and Ince was barely through the door when we then beat Birmingham so I'm not sure he can claim that one really. . Just my opinion but with a few key players returning from injury I think we'd have been just about ok with regard to relegation even with Pauno staying.

The big positive difference, and what Ince has been outstanding with, between Pauno and Ince is how they manage those above them. Pauno had no middle man and wasn't strong enough to stand up to the owner. Ince pretty early on identified what needed to change as far as running the club was concerned and subsequently Bowen came in as a like minded facilitator.

What I'm getting a little bit tired of is the inferiority complex Ince seems to be installing in the team. All we seem to hear is how many great players the opposition have or have just signed and how many players he can't pick. It's no wonder we start every game as if we're lucky to get a 0-0 or nick a 1-0.

I know the perceived wisdom is that coming from 2-0 down shows "character" but I'd argue it's actually a lot easier if you've nothing to lose. In my opinion it takes as much, if not more, "character" to be brave enough from the beginning of a game.

The first hour or so Saturday we were absolutely dismal and unfortunately it's become the norm in recent games. We're not world beaters by any means but we've a better squad of players/talent than people are making out.

I worded it carefully, I didn't say it was immediately prior to Ince taking over, or that we were on those runs when he took over. We absolutely had only just been on those runs. Yeah they ended before Ince came... it's still the context in which he took over.


I know the players said they didn't know Paunovic was going, but we saw a completely different performance from them in that last win, they may not have been told but I'm convinced the atmosphere at the club was clear he was off and that released the pressure.

Ince had very little time to implement anything for his first win, but imo he didn’t have to. He just had to instill a different attitude and confidence, and that can be done in minutes.


I agree it's easy to play without consequence at 0-2 down. But the pressure mounts once you've got 1 back and the other team know they're under threat and your dander is up. It is character to keep the comeback on, make it and then protect it, and even nearly win. Yes, we do need to start better.

I disagree we were awful for the first hour. We were definitely the better team after the first 10-15 minutes to their first goal, then had a wobble and then started the second half badly again.


Hmm That run ended two games prior (3 games if you include Birmingham) so your "Just been on a run of " is very suggestive but if that's not what you meant , fair enough.

I'd agree that the atmosphere would change with the removal of the manager , just as much around the fans as much as with the players. I do think though that the draw at our relegation rivals which stopped the run of defeats was more of a catalyst for the Preston and Birmingham wins rather than a disputed rumour that the manager was already on his way out. I guess we'll never know.

All opinions of course and I generally agree with most of yours but I'm not sure how anyone could suggest we were anything but dismal for an hour of that game. We created one scuffed shot and from the resulting corner had a cross cleared from the 6 yard box. Aside from that we did absolutely nothing despite being a goal and then 2 goals down. The moment Azeez walked on the pitch the whole complexion of the game changed.

And unfortunately that passivity at the start of games is becoming a concerning habit. For me at least.

Yeah I'm going with the distinction of 'just' making it recent not active.

But if you prefer you can think of it in form.

Prior to Ince taking over we were on 6 game form of 0.67 ppg, 12 game form of 0.50 ppg and season form of 0.91 ppg, including the final win.

And Ince finished the season, excluding that first win, on 0.92 ppg, confirming safety prior to the final game iirc, and is at 1.31 this season.

And even the recent struggles are at 1.00 ppg for 6 games and 1.08 for 12.

That's not brilliant, but there is a clear upward trend from where we were before Ince joined us. As I know you agree.


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Re: Ince out!

by Nameless » 06 Feb 2023 07:17

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The 4 in 18 is, whilst correct, massively disingenuous as it ignores how the results have been split.

We had that tough run after Huddersfield, Norwich H, QPR A, WBA H, Swansea A, Bristol C H, Burnley A, Luton A, Preston H, Watford A.

We all knew that was a tough run, at a tough time with a stretched squad but since then as said we are W3 D3 L3, which whilst not amazing is actually the 10th best record over thst time.

Exactly that. Statistics are meaningless without the context and can easily be twisted.

Feel like people have gotten carried away with our start and have forgotten how bad it looked in pre season, hence have unfairly heightened expectations forgetting how bad the situation was in pre season.


Yes we've had a hard run of games. However Ince has made a lot of questionable substitutions and I don't like the negative tactics at home. However we have had a good home record. I am just worried we'll struggle again next season when we won't have financial constraints against us because he fails to build a good team.

We also have to remember Bowen must take a lot of credit for the signings we've made and our season.


Suspect Ince takes credit for at least one of our signings, the one that is a shoe in for POTS….

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Re: Ince out!

by Hound » 06 Feb 2023 08:26

I do think we really need to win the Blackpool and Rotherham games - or at least 1 win and 1 draw. It looks a much gentler set of fixtures but we need to make it count

Ince has done fine. Likewise I don’t like the inferiority thing particularly but I disagree we’ve got a particularly good set of players. It really is odds and ends with players well into their thirties ans past their best (AC, Long, Hoilett, Dann) mixed with players who are borderline good enough (Fornah, Loum, Hendrick, Lumley, McIntyre, Meite post injury). With a few who are well out of form (Joao, Ejaria)

I don’t watch our side and think it’s a good team. It looks very limited to me. Lack of pace, lack of energy up front, no real finishers in any kind of form. Massively reliant on T Ince.

Would still be happy with just avoiding relegation and see what Bowen and co can do next year with a clean slate

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Re: Ince out!

by paultheroyal » 06 Feb 2023 08:36

Odds on favourites to go down at start of favourite. Still odds on favourites to go down after 6 games. 6 points off play-offs, come on you would of all taken that at this stage of the season.

Ince and Rae has done an amazing job this season. 5 more wins will do it - then deserves the crack at building for next season. Exciting times.

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Re: Ince out!

by Stranded » 06 Feb 2023 08:50

Thought I'd take a look and see what would happen if every team continued their form over the next 9 games to the end of the season. We'd be on for 23 pts - so W6 D5 L6 (or similar) and finish 13th/14th depending on GD.

Naturally unlikely Burnely will win all their games but they are on a 9 game winning streak, so who knows.

Key points of interest* -

*top 2 up at a canter
*play-offs will be Boro V Millwall & Luton v WBA
*Hull are flying up the table
*Cardiff, Wigan & Blackpool cut adrift.

One thing to note, if the bottom 3 continue the same form as the last 9 games, then we just need 1 point to stay up.

Burnley 116
Sheffield United 101
Middlesbrough 85
Luton Town 84
West Bromwich Albion 83
Millwall 73
Sunderland 70
Hull City 68
Watford 66
Blackburn Rovers 63
Norwich City 61
Reading 61
Bristol City 61
Preston North End 57
Swansea City 56
Coventry City 56
Queens Park Rangers 53
Birmingham City 48
Stoke City 48
Rotherham United 45
Huddersfield Town 45
Cardiff City 38
Wigan Athletic 35
Blackpool 34


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Re: Ince out!

by paultheroyal » 06 Feb 2023 09:20

Stranded Thought I'd take a look and see what would happen if every team continued their form over the next 9 games to the end of the season. We'd be on for 23 pts - so W6 D5 L6 (or similar) and finish 13th/14th depending on GD.

Naturally unlikely Burnely will win all their games but they are on a 9 game winning streak, so who knows.

Key points of interest* -

*top 2 up at a canter
*play-offs will be Boro V Millwall & Luton v WBA
*Hull are flying up the table
*Cardiff, Wigan & Blackpool cut adrift.

One thing to note, if the bottom 3 continue the same form as the last 9 games, then we just need 1 point to stay up.

Burnley 116
Sheffield United 101
Middlesbrough 85
Luton Town 84
West Bromwich Albion 83
Millwall 73
Sunderland 70
Hull City 68
Watford 66
Blackburn Rovers 63
Norwich City 61
Reading 61
Bristol City 61
Preston North End 57
Swansea City 56
Coventry City 56
Queens Park Rangers 53
Birmingham City 48
Stoke City 48
Rotherham United 45
Huddersfield Town 45
Cardiff City 38
Wigan Athletic 35
Blackpool 34



Good work and very interesting - be interesting to see if a comparison of the tables is possible to same point of season when a record number of points required to stay up - was it Peterborough who went down on 52 points or something?

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Re: Ince out!

by Stranded » 06 Feb 2023 09:40

paultheroyal
Good work and very interesting - be interesting to see if a comparison of the tables is possible to same point of season when a record number of points required to stay up - was it Peterborough who went down on 52 points or something?


Not massively dissimilar to the way it looks today:

https://www.11v11.com/league-tables/lea ... uary-2013/

Gone with 2nd Feb as closest date to where most teams had played the same number of games as this season.

In short, the 3 teams who went down were already in the bottom 4. Peterborough doubled their points total over the last 17 games but still dropped (picked up 27pts from the last 17). Climbed off the bottom but little more.

Wolves & Bristol City dropped too picking up just 18 and 13 points respectively during the run in.

IF this were replicated this year, then if Wigan double their points they get to 50. Blackpool get to 39 and Cardiff 47. Huddersfield take on the role of Barnsley and save themselves.

If this does hold, then we need 5 wins to be certain but 4 and a draw probably will do it.

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Re: Ince out!

by Royal_jimmy » 06 Feb 2023 09:45

paultheroyal Odds on favourites to go down at start of favourite. Still odds on favourites to go down after 6 games. 6 points off play-offs, come on you would of all taken that at this stage of the season.

Ince and Rae has done an amazing job this season. 5 more wins will do it - then deserves the crack at building for next season. Exciting times.


I'd even say 3-4 wins should be enough

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Re: Ince out!

by paultheroyal » 06 Feb 2023 09:54

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paultheroyal
Good work and very interesting - be interesting to see if a comparison of the tables is possible to same point of season when a record number of points required to stay up - was it Peterborough who went down on 52 points or something?


Not massively dissimilar to the way it looks today:

https://www.11v11.com/league-tables/lea ... uary-2013/

Gone with 2nd Feb as closest date to where most teams had played the same number of games as this season.

In short, the 3 teams who went down were already in the bottom 4. Peterborough doubled their points total over the last 17 games but still dropped (picked up 27pts from the last 17). Climbed off the bottom but little more.

Wolves & Bristol City dropped too picking up just 18 and 13 points respectively during the run in.

IF this were replicated this year, then if Wigan double their points they get to 50. Blackpool get to 39 and Cardiff 47. Huddersfield take on the role of Barnsley and save themselves.

If this does hold, then we need 5 wins to be certain but 4 and a draw probably will do it.


Excellent work - thanks Stranded - i do think that will be the picture - because its so bunched up a record amount of points are needed. Hull have turned it around, Bristol City are turning it around, Cardiff are slipping (what a massive game on tv that will be), Stoke City just cant get going, Birmingham could be anything - its whether the bottom 3 can do anything...


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Re: Ince out!

by Snowflake Royal » 06 Feb 2023 10:11

Hound I do think we really need to win the Blackpool and Rotherham games - or at least 1 win and 1 draw. It looks a much gentler set of fixtures but we need to make it count

Ince has done fine. Likewise I don’t like the inferiority thing particularly but I disagree we’ve got a particularly good set of players. It really is odds and ends with players well into their thirties ans past their best (AC, Long, Hoilett, Dann) mixed with players who are borderline good enough (Fornah, Loum, Hendrick, Lumley, McIntyre, Meite post injury). With a few who are well out of form (Joao, Ejaria)

I don’t watch our side and think it’s a good team. It looks very limited to me. Lack of pace, lack of energy up front, no real finishers in any kind of form. Massively reliant on T Ince.

Would still be happy with just avoiding relegation and see what Bowen and co can do next year with a clean slate

Absolutely must not lose to Blackpool.


I wonder if we're having a little bit of a loss of form, realising the POs are beyond us, but feeling safe. Possibly combined with getting close to the psychological step of 40 points. I could see us going on a little run once we break that mental barrier.

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Re: Ince out!

by Stranded » 06 Feb 2023 11:02

Snowflake Royal
Hound I do think we really need to win the Blackpool and Rotherham games - or at least 1 win and 1 draw. It looks a much gentler set of fixtures but we need to make it count

Ince has done fine. Likewise I don’t like the inferiority thing particularly but I disagree we’ve got a particularly good set of players. It really is odds and ends with players well into their thirties ans past their best (AC, Long, Hoilett, Dann) mixed with players who are borderline good enough (Fornah, Loum, Hendrick, Lumley, McIntyre, Meite post injury). With a few who are well out of form (Joao, Ejaria)

I don’t watch our side and think it’s a good team. It looks very limited to me. Lack of pace, lack of energy up front, no real finishers in any kind of form. Massively reliant on T Ince.

Would still be happy with just avoiding relegation and see what Bowen and co can do next year with a clean slate

Absolutely must not lose to Blackpool.


I wonder if we're having a little bit of a loss of form, realising the POs are beyond us, but feeling safe. Possibly combined with getting close to the psychological step of 40 points. I could see us going on a little run once we break that mental barrier.


Very possible - the next 4 games Sunderland (A), Rotherham (H), Cardiff (A), Blackpool (H) - could easily see us push ourselves back into PO contention. On paper all are winnable but realistically, we should be targeting 7 points which should get us close to job done - any more is a bonus, anything less than 6 will be a cause for concern if that involves defeat in any of the latter games.

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Re: Ince out!

by YorkshireRoyal99 » 06 Feb 2023 18:46

Hound I do think we really need to win the Blackpool and Rotherham games - or at least 1 win and 1 draw. It looks a much gentler set of fixtures but we need to make it count

Ince has done fine. Likewise I don’t like the inferiority thing particularly but I disagree we’ve got a particularly good set of players. It really is odds and ends with players well into their thirties ans past their best (AC, Long, Hoilett, Dann) mixed with players who are borderline good enough (Fornah, Loum, Hendrick, Lumley, McIntyre, Meite post injury). With a few who are well out of form (Joao, Ejaria)

I don’t watch our side and think it’s a good team. It looks very limited to me. Lack of pace, lack of energy up front, no real finishers in any kind of form. Massively reliant on T Ince.

Would still be happy with just avoiding relegation and see what Bowen and co can do next year with a clean slate


I'd actually slightly disagree and say it is a good team, but with limited players. Players understanding their roles, pulling in the same direction with a clear way of playing (be it right or wrong). Every team has their best players like T.Ince ultimately.

I wouldn't say it's necessarily a poor squad to be fair, which probably explains why we are where we are at the moment. Not littered with quality, but not many sides are really.

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Re: Ince out!

by Hound » 06 Feb 2023 21:37

Yes when I said team, I meant group of individual players - Ince has got them working as a group, good spirit, we’ll organised etc

It’s a squad if lower champ players, beset by injury issues and unable to freshen things up or move certain players on. We should be pretty happy with where we are considering

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Re: Ince out!

by Snowflake Royal » 06 Feb 2023 22:27

Unloke a lot our recent seasons of chronic under performance, this one is pretty much we are where we should be

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Re: Ince out!

by AthleticoSpizz » 07 Feb 2023 19:13

Hound Yes when I said team, I meant group of individual players - Ince has got them working as a group, good spirit, we’ll organised etc

It’s a squad if lower champ players, beset by injury issues and unable to freshen things up or move certain players on. We should be pretty happy with where we are considering
yup and despite all that.
We have a team (as in team not just players)

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Re: Ince out!

by Crowbar6753 » 07 Feb 2023 22:36

If he keeps us up then he deserves the chance to lead us into next season. I also like everything he has done behind the scenes, I'm sure he has picked up a lot from his experiences with Manchester, Milan and England and it looks like he's put this to good use.

My only concerns is his tactics, substitutions and horribly negative style of play. Saying that he has stated that 4-4-3 is his preferred formation and hoping that as soon as we meet that magic number we will see a more positive brand of football.

If come the start of the season and we're still persisting with this boring brand of football then its a strong "Out" from me.

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