PInce - Concerns Developing - Is He Confused?

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YorkshireRoyal99
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Re: PInce - Concerns Developing - Is He Confused?

by YorkshireRoyal99 » 08 Nov 2022 12:17

Snowflake Royal
YorkshireRoyal99 But rely on your biased judgement where we don't watch these players play on a daily basis? Also, harsh to say that P.Ince has failed, would say in the main he's actually been pretty successful, we are just having a tough time of it at the moment, understandably so to some extent.

No discuss on merits rather than appeal to authority. Many of these players have already featured in the first team and performed well. I'm not suggesting throwing an unknown 15 year old in at the deep end.

I didn't say Ince has failed, I said his predecessors had.


And what sample are we looking at? Abrefa, for example, has 34 minutes of Championship football under his belt, he got booked against Cardiff. Did he do anything especially wrong/disastrous? No. did he prove capable? I'm not sure, it's too hard to judge based on just 34 minutes of league football. Does he deserve more of a chance? I'd say yes, but the management say otherwise. We are literally playing a winger at wing back and if not then Mbengue, who we've all established is not comfortable there, before Abrefa, so what does that say about where we think these players are?

There are a few rumblings that Jahmari Clarke should have got more of an opportunity, but he's currently playing in the National League. If those are the types of players that our fans want us to be using more and becoming more reliant on, then we are going to run into some real problems. You don't have to make mistakes to look not good enough for the level you're playing at. Again, this isn't the case in every scenario, some might flourish when brought in, but all I've seen so far is some valiant effort from our academy lads and have produced occasional bits of quality in moments, but with no consistency. Promising, but that's it for now.

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Re: PInce - Concerns Developing - Is He Confused?

by Snowflake Royal » 08 Nov 2022 12:25

YorkshireRoyal99
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YorkshireRoyal99 But rely on your biased judgement where we don't watch these players play on a daily basis? Also, harsh to say that P.Ince has failed, would say in the main he's actually been pretty successful, we are just having a tough time of it at the moment, understandably so to some extent.

No discuss on merits rather than appeal to authority. Many of these players have already featured in the first team and performed well. I'm not suggesting throwing an unknown 15 year old in at the deep end.

I didn't say Ince has failed, I said his predecessors had.


And what sample are we looking at? Abrefa, for example, has 34 minutes of Championship football under his belt, he got booked against Cardiff. Did he do anything especially wrong/disastrous? No. did he prove capable? I'm not sure, it's too hard to judge based on just 34 minutes of league football. Does he deserve more of a chance? I'd say yes, but the management say otherwise. We are literally playing a winger at wing back and if not then Mbengue, who we've all established is not comfortable there, before Abrefa, so what does that say about where we think these players are?

There are a few rumblings that Jahmari Clarke should have got more of an opportunity, but he's currently playing in the National League. If those are the types of players that our fans want us to be using more and becoming more reliant on, then we are going to run into some real problems. You don't have to make mistakes to look not good enough for the level you're playing at. Again, this isn't the case in every scenario, some might flourish when brought in, but all I've seen so far is some valiant effort from our academy lads and have produced occasional bits of quality in moments, but with no consistency. Promising, but that's it for now.

Abrefa has 6 first team appearances including a full start in the cup. And he's been substantially better in those performances than Mbengue has at WB.

John Clarke has 3 sub and 1 cup.

We have options to use round pegs in round holes, instead we are not giving those options a chance in favour of not great square pegs in round holes and bot adapting our team to our circumstances. The proof is in the pudding. It isn't working.

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Re: PInce - Concerns Developing - Is He Confused?

by Snowflake Royal » 08 Nov 2022 12:26

YorkshireRoyal99
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YorkshireRoyal99 But rely on your biased judgement where we don't watch these players play on a daily basis? Also, harsh to say that P.Ince has failed, would say in the main he's actually been pretty successful, we are just having a tough time of it at the moment, understandably so to some extent.

No discuss on merits rather than appeal to authority. Many of these players have already featured in the first team and performed well. I'm not suggesting throwing an unknown 15 year old in at the deep end.

I didn't say Ince has failed, I said his predecessors had.


And what sample are we looking at? Abrefa, for example, has 34 minutes of Championship football under his belt, he got booked against Cardiff. Did he do anything especially wrong/disastrous? No. did he prove capable? I'm not sure, it's too hard to judge based on just 34 minutes of league football. Does he deserve more of a chance? I'd say yes, but the management say otherwise. We are literally playing a winger at wing back and if not then Mbengue, who we've all established is not comfortable there, before Abrefa, so what does that say about where we think these players are?

There are a few rumblings that Jahmari Clarke should have got more of an opportunity, but he's currently playing in the National League. If those are the types of players that our fans want us to be using more and becoming more reliant on, then we are going to run into some real problems. You don't have to make mistakes to look not good enough for the level you're playing at. Again, this isn't the case in every scenario, some might flourish when brought in, but all I've seen so far is some valiant effort from our academy lads and have produced occasional bits of quality in moments, but with no consistency. Promising, but that's it for now.

Abrefa has 6 first team appearances including a full start in the cup. And he's been substantially better in those performances than Mbengue has at WB.

John Clarke has 3 sub and 1 cup.

We have options to use round pegs in round holes, instead we are not giving those options a chance in favour of not great square pegs in round holes and bot adapting our team to our circumstances. The proof is in the pudding. It isn't working.

Results were better when we were using the likes of Clarke and Abrefa more too.

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Re: PInce - Concerns Developing - Is He Confused?

by YorkshireRoyal99 » 08 Nov 2022 12:41

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Snowflake Royal No discuss on merits rather than appeal to authority. Many of these players have already featured in the first team and performed well. I'm not suggesting throwing an unknown 15 year old in at the deep end.

I didn't say Ince has failed, I said his predecessors had.


And what sample are we looking at? Abrefa, for example, has 34 minutes of Championship football under his belt, he got booked against Cardiff. Did he do anything especially wrong/disastrous? No. did he prove capable? I'm not sure, it's too hard to judge based on just 34 minutes of league football. Does he deserve more of a chance? I'd say yes, but the management say otherwise. We are literally playing a winger at wing back and if not then Mbengue, who we've all established is not comfortable there, before Abrefa, so what does that say about where we think these players are?

There are a few rumblings that Jahmari Clarke should have got more of an opportunity, but he's currently playing in the National League. If those are the types of players that our fans want us to be using more and becoming more reliant on, then we are going to run into some real problems. You don't have to make mistakes to look not good enough for the level you're playing at. Again, this isn't the case in every scenario, some might flourish when brought in, but all I've seen so far is some valiant effort from our academy lads and have produced occasional bits of quality in moments, but with no consistency. Promising, but that's it for now.

Abrefa has 6 first team appearances including a full start in the cup. And he's been substantially better in those performances than Mbengue has at WB.

John Clarke has 3 sub and 1 cup.

We have options to use round pegs in round holes, instead we are not giving those options a chance in favour of not great square pegs in round holes and bot adapting our team to our circumstances. The proof is in the pudding. It isn't working.

Results were better when we were using the likes of Clarke and Abrefa more too.


I'm not so bothered about the cup games, but if you're going to use that as part of the sample, we lost that game at a League Two outfit and we were outperformed on the night, which probably says more than what it doesn't about where the youngsters are at. The first goal was Abrefa being caught out of position for the initial ball into the box and the winner sees Abrefa switch off at the back post letting his man on the blind side to score the winner. Mbengue does that, you'd have gone through the roof.

John Clarke has had 23 minutes of league football and it's ok saying results were better, but were we just in overall better shape then than now? Yes. We can't be pinning the better results down to the fact we've a couple of youngsters for the sake of 30 minute spells over multiple different substitute appearances, that's just ridiculous.

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Re: PInce - Concerns Developing - Is He Confused?

by Hound » 08 Nov 2022 12:45

John Clarke was terrible in the first half of that cup match. A lot better second

I’ve no real issue with Abbey/Abrefa/Clarke playing the odd game here and there but they are all very young. And there’s no real noise about them like there was Olise or Loader for example


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Re: PInce - Concerns Developing - Is He Confused?

by YorkshireRoyal99 » 08 Nov 2022 13:31

Hound John Clarke was terrible in the first half of that cup match. A lot better second

I’ve no real issue with Abbey/Abrefa/Clarke playing the odd game here and there but they are all very young. And there’s no real noise about them like there was Olise or Loader for example


Yeah and I'd agree, incremental appearances here and there and maybe some decent substitute appearances as and when, but we can't be relying on these players to be making up our squad and trying to change games with them (not because they are defensive players, but just youngsters in general) if they aren't up to scratch yet.

The closest player is Azeez and I'm not even sure he makes our matchday squad with everyone fit.

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Re: PInce - Concerns Developing - Is He Confused?

by Coppells Lost Coat » 08 Nov 2022 13:40

When a player is good enough they break through. throwing them on because they had 2 good sub apps doesn't make them better than the player ahead of them. They are not being used for a reason. Mbengue came in and has made more fist team minutes in his first 2 months than Abrefa has had in his entire career. We are using a winger at RB. That is not by accident.

Can people stop creaming themselves over our very average academy players. Who remembers how Bristow got rinsed every game he played. Thats the level they are at right now. Hoilet is doing a fine job at RWB - If i remember all issues come down the left. Baba is the real issue - NGW is the solution.

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Re: PInce - Concerns Developing - Is He Confused?

by Sutekh » 08 Nov 2022 13:49

Coppells Lost Coat When a player is good enough they break through. throwing them on because they had 2 good sub apps doesn't make them better than the player ahead of them. They are not being used for a reason. Mbengue came in and has made more fist team minutes in his first 2 months than Abrefa has had in his entire career. We are using a winger at RB. That is not by accident.

Can people stop creaming themselves over our very average academy players. Who remembers how Bristow got rinsed every game he played. Thats the level they are at right now. Hoilet is doing a fine job at RWB - If i remember all issues come down the left. Baba is the real issue - NGW is the solution.



Must admit I'm not seeing why Rahman is getting game time ahead of "Obi", not been overly impressed with Rahman in any of his games for Reading, he's adequate and experienced but nothing more, but have been impressed in the 3 or 4 games I've caught NGW so far - though he isn't the finished article yet and still has a bit to learn.

Also do not like Hoilett at RWB, yes he can do a job there but it's usually a waste of his talent. Would rather Yiadom was playing that role and Reading used a 3rd specialist centre back if still playing 3 at the back (should they ever have 3 fit at the same time of course).

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Re: PInce - Concerns Developing - Is He Confused?

by Snowflake Royal » 08 Nov 2022 18:26

Am I right in saying we've slipped 10 places in the table in 9 games? Must be close. And over those 9 games we're firmly showing relegation form at 0.88 ppg?

I know we've been struggling recently but it hadn't felt that bad! Peesumably because of the impressive start and low expectations.

We need some results soon though, because its not far off a quarter of a season and freefall.


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Re: PInce - Concerns Developing - Is He Confused?

by Snowflake Royal » 08 Nov 2022 21:57

I'm calling it official. The only things to change under Ince are the formation and the amount of possession.

Still shit at making subs, using our squad, playing football, creating chances, scoring goals, defending and keeping players fit.

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Re: PInce - Concerns Developing - Is He Confused?

by vaughany1960 » 08 Nov 2022 22:07

+1

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Re: PInce - Concerns Developing - Is He Confused?

by CountryRoyal » 08 Nov 2022 23:50

Snowflake Royal I'm calling it official. The only things to change under Ince are the formation and the amount of possession.

Still shit at making subs, using our squad, playing football, creating chances, scoring goals, defending and keeping players fit.


I noticed this last season. It’s very frustrating as that was one of my biggest complaints of Pauno.

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Re: PInce - Concerns Developing - Is He Confused?

by Snowflake Royal » 09 Nov 2022 08:25

CountryRoyal
Snowflake Royal I'm calling it official. The only things to change under Ince are the formation and the amount of possession.

Still shit at making subs, using our squad, playing football, creating chances, scoring goals, defending and keeping players fit.


I noticed this last season. It’s very frustrating as that was one of my biggest complaints of Pauno.

In almost all aspects of the job, I would make a dreadful manager. Coaching, discipline, positional nouse, set play routines, motivation, knowledge, contacts.

But I think half of Hob Nob could do a better job on squad selection and substitutions that pretty much any manager we've had in the last ten years.

They're all way too slow on the trigger. Always trying to crowbar their top players in even where there are too many to do so for that position. Its always about the individuals and not the team. I don’t care if they trust them and the excel on the training ground. It doesn’t work on the pitch.


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Re: PInce - Concerns Developing - Is He Confused?

by Sanguine » 09 Nov 2022 08:42

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They're all way too slow on the trigger. Always trying to crowbar their top players in even where there are too many to do so for that position. Its always about the individuals and not the team. I don’t care if they trust them and the excel on the training ground. It doesn’t work on the pitch.


Thing is, that is said with hindsight.

So we'd make that change at 55 minutes and it would destabilise the team and we'd concede four. Or we'd give (say) Clarke a run in the team and he'd score two in two and then no more in his next five, and ultimately his link play would be ineffective and we'd have less possession in the attacking third over those seven games.

I get the clamour to give younger players a chance and to make changes - I think broadly though on both, and particularly on the first, managers really do know better than us.

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Re: PInce - Concerns Developing - Is He Confused?

by YorkshireRoyal99 » 09 Nov 2022 09:26

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They're all way too slow on the trigger. Always trying to crowbar their top players in even where there are too many to do so for that position. Its always about the individuals and not the team. I don’t care if they trust them and the excel on the training ground. It doesn’t work on the pitch.


Thing is, that is said with hindsight.

So we'd make that change at 55 minutes and it would destabilise the team and we'd concede four. Or we'd give (say) Clarke a run in the team and he'd score two in two and then no more in his next five, and ultimately his link play would be ineffective and we'd have less possession in the attacking third over those seven games.

I get the clamour to give younger players a chance and to make changes - I think broadly though on both, and particularly on the first, managers really do know better than us.


Yeah agree here - it's about being objective.

You could see the game plan last night was stay in the game until the 80th minute, make the changes then and look to nick something from the game, unfortunately that came from opening up and then that's where their second goal has come from. I'm not so sure you can "throw the kitchen sink" after an hour in a game like that and then completely kill the team, with the quality Watford have they'd have opened us up all over the place and it would shatter confidence.

Agree on the manager aspect as well, they do know far more than what we know, whether they haven't been in the game for nearly a decade or not, P.Ince said it himself upon arrival at the club, he hasn't just "forgot" how to manage. Ultimately, we are speaking about professional people skilled in their jobs, sometimes I think it doesn't work because the manager and club do not suit for various different reasons (manager doesn't suit the players for example) rather than "incompetence". I don't think it's a case of managers "don't know what they are doing" in most circumstances.

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Re: PInce - Concerns Developing - Is He Confused?

by URZZZZ » 09 Nov 2022 15:48

Biggest issue for me is how little we’re getting out of such a talented set of strikers. Too often, they just don’t get involved in the game

Ince has set his stall and it’s evident he wants us to play on the counter. In which case, I’m disappointed how reluctant he seems to be to starting Long. He’s rotating all the other three strikers without finding a winning formula whilst leaving out the one most suited to his game plan. I don’t think it’s much of a coincidence we looked better at the start of the season (Cardiff, Blackburn, Boro to a lesser extent) with him leading the line

Said before but it’s all about matching the players’ attributes with the style. Joao is a top Championship striker but he doesn’t suit how we’re currently playing. Carroll needs good, reliable crosses into the area with someone to play off. Long is the best at making situations from nothing (see the Bristol second goal) and given how the way we’re playing complements that, think it’s a no brainer for him to be starting

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Re: PInce - Concerns Developing - Is He Confused?

by YorkshireRoyal99 » 09 Nov 2022 16:13

URZZZZ Biggest issue for me is how little we’re getting out of such a talented set of strikers. Too often, they just don’t get involved in the game

Ince has set his stall and it’s evident he wants us to play on the counter. In which case, I’m disappointed how reluctant he seems to be to starting Long. He’s rotating all the other three strikers without finding a winning formula whilst leaving out the one most suited to his game plan. I don’t think it’s much of a coincidence we looked better at the start of the season (Cardiff, Blackburn, Boro to a lesser extent) with him leading the line

Said before but it’s all about matching the players’ attributes with the style. Joao is a top Championship striker but he doesn’t suit how we’re currently playing. Carroll needs good, reliable crosses into the area with someone to play off. Long is the best at making situations from nothing (see the Bristol second goal) and given how the way we’re playing complements that, think it’s a no brainer for him to be starting


Said it elsewhere about Long and co, I think it can work just not when our manager is quoting our players are getting "killed" by the fixture list and being reliant on the same players. I can't see us pressing with Long, Meite, Ince and then having nobody behind to help that press as we'd just get played around at the moment. Either that, or the team would be absolutely knackered after the best part of an hour and injuries would be stacking up again.

Maybe after the WC break and some fresher legs, we might see that. I'm surprised we haven't utilised Long more from the bench though when we've been chasing games especially. Agree, think we have looked better with him up top and when we play to his strengths more and we can put the opposition under pressure more.

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Re: PInce - Concerns Developing - Is He Confused?

by fred sharpes nose » 21 Jan 2023 18:52

Doesn't know his best 11, does not really have a style of play, most of squad fit, seems to be youth averse - choices decisions choices decisions......

Not convinced he has "got it" for the long term - yes has done fine (a good start has saved us) and we'll likely be safe from relegation - so job done,

Not sure he can be trusted to spend £££ wisely. Not sure of his tactical nous. Inconsistency is prevalent - some of that has to be owned by him

We seem to be following his managerial season long trend ....

Alternatively all the players are crap but some had a few worldies earlier in the season

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Re: PInce - Concerns Developing - Is He Confused?

by AthleticoSpizz » 21 Jan 2023 18:58

Reckon he’ll walk at the end of the season anyway…meantime, we’ll have a lot to thank him (and his basic team spirit building) for.

Got a lot of players involved in Reading, that probably wouldn’t have given us a second glance (given our ‘still’ ongoing financial clusterfukc situation).

Will only get respect from me, when he does
Last edited by AthleticoSpizz on 21 Jan 2023 19:02, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: PInce - Concerns Developing - Is He Confused?

by SCIAG » 21 Jan 2023 19:02

Coppells Lost Coat When a player is good enough they break through.

Jack Stacey, Rob Dickie, Tariqe Fosu... It's a bit more complicated than that!

Edit: that said I don't think playing Abrefa or Abbey would make any real difference.

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