Lita's disallowed goal - the case (again) for video analysis

[Platypuss]

What will surely happen is that technology will improve so that the ref is automatically alerted as to when the ball has left the field of play.

I'd also like to see some clear way (laser pointer?) of denoting where freekicks and throw ins should be taken from and show a 10 yard encroachment line for defenders.

[Royalwaster]

[quote="Dirk Gently"]

But if you stop play to look at the video the next time the ball goes out of play, that's when the second goal has been scored, so do you then rule that one out to allow the first goal. It might be 5 minutes later!

quote]

But I can't remember a single instance when that has happened - these kinds of decision are statistically extremely rare (crossed the goal line or not decisions - not fouls and off-sides etc.), so the chance of what you're saying happening is so miniscule that using it as a reason to not use the new technology would be stupid.

It seems like a lot of the arguments re. the game needs to be the same in the Premiership and at grassroots level are completely spurious. Surely, the rules of the game would still be the same - it's a goal if the ball crosses the line. Otherwise, surely there already are lots of differences - score boards, clocks, replay screens, etc. are all not present in park football. Also, there is already video replays used for violent conduct (after the match).

[weybridgewanderer]

But I can't remember a single instance when that has happened - these kinds of decision are statistically extremely rare (crossed the goal line or not decisions - not fouls and off-sides etc.), so the chance of what you're saying happening is so miniscule that using it as a reason to not use the new technology would be stupid.

Maybe not a contenous "over the line or not" but I can think of many times when one team has felt that there was a foul on one of their players in the build up to another teams goal

So do we stop the play and look at the video every time someone thinks it might have been a foul?

or do we wait and see one team score then rewind the play all the way back to the last time the ball went out of play to make sure we didn;t miss something just in case?

Or if we limit it to "penalties or offsides or ball out of play or ball over the line" why have we deiced these are more important

how do you square off in a game if one team gets a goal rules out becasue of an offside that was picked up on the video but another team doesn't have a goal diasallowed because of a foul that hadn;t been given 2 minutes earlier in the build up?

[Wycombe Royal]

Say that video evidence is brought in for penalty decisions - don't we see every week when penalty decisions are reviewed that one pundit on MOTD will say it was a penalty and the other says it wasn't?

Half the time they can't even agree on offside decisions....

[Stranded]

But I can't remember a single instance when that has happened - these kinds of decision are statistically extremely rare (crossed the goal line or not decisions - not fouls and off-sides etc.), so the chance of what you're saying happening is so miniscule that using it as a reason to not use the new technology would be stupid.

Maybe not a contenous "over the line or not" but I can think of many times when one team has felt that there was a foul on one of their players in the build up to another teams goal

So do we stop the play and look at the video every time someone thinks it might have been a foul?

or do we wait and see one team score then rewind the play all the way back to the last time the ball went out of play to make sure we didn;t miss something just in case?

Or if we limit it to "penalties or offsides or ball out of play or ball over the line" why have we deiced these are more important

how do you square off in a game if one team gets a goal rules out becasue of an offside that was picked up on the video but another team doesn't have a goal diasallowed because of a foul that hadn;t been given 2 minutes earlier in the build up?

Simple, you use any technology for decisions of whether the ball is over the line and that's it. Any other decisions are left to the referee and his officials to make, so if they miss an offside or foul - so be it.

In cricket, they only use it to clarify areas where it may not be possible for a decision to be given by the naked eye ie a run-out or a low catch. The same can easily be applied to goal-line matters.

[Millsy]

I'm in the "shit happens" camp on this; you will never take out mistakes made honestly by officials

Mistakes are part and parcel of the game,

Sorry but these are two attitudes/ arguments I will never ever respect.

1. With the "shit happens" philosophy we'd still be cavemen. That's absolutely no reason to halt progress. I can point to any number of examples to show that had we adopted "shit happens" there'd be no progress or improvement. A shocking philosophy.

2. "You will never take out mistakes..." So? These sorts of "you'll never get rid of..." arguments are equally shocking and nonsensical. (i.e. banning smoking, it'll still happen underground - you'll never getrid of it etc etc).... Who ever said improving technology will erase mistakes? Of course it won't. But they will SIGNIFICANTLY REDUCE. I suppose the fact that we haven't reduced infant mortality down to 0 means the public health measures in this country were a waste of time?

(Although sounding aggressive I'm not btw! )

There is a HUGE problem in football.

Its high time it's addressed.

2 more linesmen is too little and too ancient a step. It's high time we employed decent technologies which we're more than capable of doing (eg Platypuss's laser thing or instant video analysis etc etc...) How and what we do should be debated - I'm sure there will be be many more great ideas. But that we need to do *something* with technology should be a no brainer.

[Skyline]

I'd also like to see some clear way (laser pointer?) of denoting where freekicks and throw ins should be taken from and show a 10 yard encroachment line for defenders.

I'm sure I read somewhere recently (within the last season or so) that in S America the refs carry a can of marker powder, and when a free kick is awarded they spray a circle where the kick is to be taken, and a line giving the 10-yard mark. Presumably the marker only lasts for a short time, but it does work apparently.

[brendywendy]

i had two pound on at 52-1 that lita would get a hattrick, was devestated.
although the pound i had on at 51-1 for lita to score first in a 0-2 win made me feel slightly better

Who was that with? 51-1???

william hill, last week,
as no-one knew who would start out of long lita and kitson i think,
......or was it 25 -1 and i put two pound on

EDIT: just checked, it was 1 pound at 51-1 for the double(first scorer, and 0-2 win)

anyway, all i know is that i had 51 pound in my account on sunday
but should of had 100+ if it wasnt for an innept refereeing decision

[Deadlock]

I'd also like to see some clear way (laser pointer?) of denoting where freekicks and throw ins should be taken from and show a 10 yard encroachment line for defenders.

How about this technology as used in the Brazilian League:-

"While watching Brazilian league football, it appeared that once the referee had set the wall for a free-kick, he took out an aerosol and sprayed a line on the pitch, presumably so that the defending team could not cross it until the kick had been taken," writes Billy Stewart. "Can anyone confirm this is true?"

We can, Billy. It transpires that Brazilian football fan and chemist Heine Allemagne is to thank for inventing a high-tech spray in 2000. The referees carry a small aerosol can - or one is brought out to them - so that whenever a defensive wall needs to be formed near the penalty area, they can spray the foam and mark out the 10 yards that players must retreat. As if by magic, the dye evaporates from the grass within 60 seconds, because, as Rio resident José Sette explains, "it is a white water-based foam that is non-toxic, odourless, and does not affect the ozone layer." Phew! And what's more "it is composed of mineralised water, coconut by-products, additives and a propellent gas."

It was first used in the São Paulo State Championship in 2001, with the Brazilian Football Confederation and state federations then extending its usage around the country. But despite proving a highly effective tool in upholding the rules of the game, Fifa remains unconvinced as to its necessity and is yet to take the idea worldwide.

Found here. Could also be used for spotting freekicks and throw ins.

Edit: Obviously Skyline and I have been reading the same things.

[RoyalChicagoFC]

I'd also like to see some clear way (laser pointer?) of denoting where freekicks and throw ins should be taken from and show a 10 yard encroachment line for defenders.

I'm sure I read somewhere recently (within the last season or so) that in S America the refs carry a can of marker powder, and when a free kick is awarded they spray a circle where the kick is to be taken, and a line giving the 10-yard mark. Presumably the marker only lasts for a short time, but it does work apparently.

I'll bear witness.

Used to show a lot of Campeonato Brasiliero on the U.S. domestic cable football channel, and I sat and watched a game nearly four years back when the spray can was in use throughout. I might mention also that the referee and both linos were women, a first in the Brazilian league.

I think it's worth repeating that the referee and both linos were women and that the match was played in mmmmmmmmBrazil...

[willz_royal]

put a very thin layer of metal inside the outer skin of the ball, when the ball crosses a line on both sides, it creates a circuit/break a beam, and the ref will hear a beep in his ear

it could all be oh so simple, and not so time consuming

[papereyes]

What will surely happen is that technology will improve so that the ref is automatically alerted as to when the ball has left the field of play.

I'd also like to see some clear way (laser pointer?) of denoting where freekicks and throw ins should be taken from and show a 10 yard encroachment line for defenders.

A low tech way is used somewhere or other and the ref paints with powder the spot. It still relies on the ref, however.

[Great Knolly]

If you want technology, play with your PSP. Football is for people.

Really, how many championships, cups etc. have been decided by
bad refereeing decisions. Tottenham didn't somehow win the league
last year courtesy of 14 bad decisions. Chelsea won it, because they were the best side.
The most glaring one is probably 1966 and the ball got quite close
to going over the line didn't it

[royals pete]

i had two pound on at 52-1 that lita would get a hattrick, was devestated.
although the pound i had on at 51-1 for lita to score first in a 0-2 win made me feel slightly better

Who was that with? 51-1???

william hill, last week,
as no-one knew who would start out of long lita and kitson i think,
......or was it 25 -1 and i put two pound on

EDIT: just checked, it was 1 pound at 51-1 for the double(first scorer, and 0-2 win)

anyway, all i know is that i had 51 pound in my account on sunday
but should of had 100+ if it wasnt for an innept refereeing decision

It was on the coupons inside the Man City concourse. Available to everyone

[igoe agogo]

If you want technology, play with your PSP. Football is for people.

Really, how many championships, cups etc. have been decided by
bad refereeing decisions. Tottenham didn't somehow win the league
last year courtesy of 14 bad decisions. Chelsea won it, because they were the best side.
The most glaring one is probably 1966 and the ball got quite close
to going over the line didn't it

Cheserfield's potential progress to the FA Cup final.
Pedro Mendes scoring an injury time winner at Old Trafford.

THe FACT is that if you use some simple technology to judge over the line FACTS then all these fanciful "what if" scenarios would be irrelevant.

Beep - Goal
No Beep - Play On

SIMPLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Great Knolly]

My alarm clock goes beep. My microwave goes beep. I don't want football to beep.

[Barry the bird boggler]

Keep video evidence OUT of the game.

[Dirk Gently]

If you want technology, play with your PSP. Football is for people.

Really, how many championships, cups etc. have been decided by
bad refereeing decisions. Tottenham didn't somehow win the league
last year courtesy of 14 bad decisions. Chelsea won it, because they were the best side.
The most glaring one is probably 1966 and the ball got quite close
to going over the line didn't it

Cheserfield's potential progress to the FA Cup final.
Pedro Mendes scoring an injury time winner at Old Trafford.

THe FACT is that if you use some simple technology to judge over the line FACTS then all these fanciful "what if" scenarios would be irrelevant.

Beep - Goal
No Beep - Play On

SIMPLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That's Ok, and in fact last year the FA asked the IFB if they could do a trial of this. The problem is how you get the technology to work, which no-one has yet sussed out properly.

You can't use any line of sight sensors, because it's not just the ball that goes over the line, so you need some kind of transponder in the ball itself. Big questions are how much will this cost, will it change the weight, bounce etc of the ball, and just how reliable will it be after it's been hoofed around for 90 minutes.