Have we sold the Mad Stad to the owners/someone else?

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Re: Have we sold the Mad Stad to the owners/someone else?

by Nameless » 06 Sep 2019 07:59

The sale shouldn’t Be an issue, it’s the valuation that will catch people.
The EFL rules state that any transactions must be at a genuine market rate. This is in the context of supplying goods and services and sponsorship but would be relevant for sale of assets as well. As long as we sold the ground at a realistic price then we’ll be ok. What a realistic price is will be a bit of an issue as valuations are usually done using comparable sales andthere haven’t been many 24,000 seater sports grounds sold on the open market in the Thames Valley recently ! Would be interesting to know what value we had attachedto it in our accounts.
I think the sale of the training ground was reported to have been cleared with the EFL before it happened, I wonder if we had the foresight to do the same with the stadium sale ?
As for Boro being the one’s complaining, I wonder how many millions Steve Gibson has pumped into their coffers ?

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Re: Have we sold the Mad Stad to the owners/someone else?

by multisync1830 » 06 Sep 2019 08:16

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Dick Habbin's hairdo Not sure how and why this may be relevant, but don't the Thais still own the hotel?

There's a little sign on the wall as one comes out of the bogs at the bar in the hotel which says something like: "In deference to our Thai owners, we aim to offer authentic Thai cuisine in the restaurant ..." or some such nonsense.


Last heard that it was Lady Sasima's son who owned it now. Can't recall source or ever seeing it in writing.


Owned by the Srivikorn group which is still owned by her ultimately although she has little to do with the hotel now
Its currently bring rebranded as the millennium group lost the contract

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Re: Have we sold the Mad Stad to the owners/someone else?

by Green » 06 Sep 2019 09:03

Nameless The sale shouldn’t Be an issue, it’s the valuation that will catch people.
The EFL rules state that any transactions must be at a genuine market rate. This is in the context of supplying goods and services and sponsorship but would be relevant for sale of assets as well. As long as we sold the ground at a realistic price then we’ll be ok. What a realistic price is will be a bit of an issue as valuations are usually done using comparable sales andthere haven’t been many 24,000 seater sports grounds sold on the open market in the Thames Valley recently ! Would be interesting to know what value we had attachedto it in our accounts.
I think the sale of the training ground was reported to have been cleared with the EFL before it happened, I wonder if we had the foresight to do the same with the stadium sale ?
As for Boro being the one’s complaining, I wonder how many millions Steve Gibson has pumped into their coffers ?

The EFL seem a trifle naive to me.

We're talking about multi million pound businesses, if the government can't get the likes of amazon and starbucks to pay tax, what makes the EFL think a few regulations will really make a difference? The clubs can just structure their finance round it - be it stadium sales or whatever else.

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Re: Have we sold the Mad Stad to the owners/someone else?

by Nameless » 06 Sep 2019 09:21

Green
Nameless The sale shouldn’t Be an issue, it’s the valuation that will catch people.
The EFL rules state that any transactions must be at a genuine market rate. This is in the context of supplying goods and services and sponsorship but would be relevant for sale of assets as well. As long as we sold the ground at a realistic price then we’ll be ok. What a realistic price is will be a bit of an issue as valuations are usually done using comparable sales andthere haven’t been many 24,000 seater sports grounds sold on the open market in the Thames Valley recently ! Would be interesting to know what value we had attachedto it in our accounts.
I think the sale of the training ground was reported to have been cleared with the EFL before it happened, I wonder if we had the foresight to do the same with the stadium sale ?
As for Boro being the one’s complaining, I wonder how many millions Steve Gibson has pumped into their coffers ?

The EFL seem a trifle naive to me.

We're talking about multi million pound businesses, if the government can't get the likes of amazon and starbucks to pay tax, what makes the EFL think a few regulations will really make a difference? The clubs can just structure their finance round it - be it stadium sales or whatever else.


Except clubs have been caught trying to get round the rules and have been punished for it.
There is nothing wrong in doing things within the rules. However if you say your stadiumis worth £40:million and then you sell it to yourself for £60 million you are going to get pulled up on it.

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Re: Have we sold the Mad Stad to the owners/someone else?

by RoyalBlue » 06 Sep 2019 09:42

Nameless The sale shouldn’t Be an issue, it’s the valuation that will catch people.
The EFL rules state that any transactions must be at a genuine market rate. This is in the context of supplying goods and services and sponsorship but would be relevant for sale of assets as well. As long as we sold the ground at a realistic price then we’ll be ok. What a realistic price is will be a bit of an issue as valuations are usually done using comparable sales andthere haven’t been many 24,000 seater sports grounds sold on the open market in the Thames Valley recently ! Would be interesting to know what value we had attachedto it in our accounts.
I think the sale of the training ground was reported to have been cleared with the EFL before it happened, I wonder if we had the foresight to do the same with the stadium sale ?
As for Boro being the one’s complaining, I wonder how many millions Steve Gibson has pumped into their coffers ?


Presumably in land value alone the stadium must be worth a pretty high amount of money, given where it is situated.


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Re: Have we sold the Mad Stad to the owners/someone else?

by Nameless » 06 Sep 2019 09:49

RoyalBlue
Nameless The sale shouldn’t Be an issue, it’s the valuation that will catch people.
The EFL rules state that any transactions must be at a genuine market rate. This is in the context of supplying goods and services and sponsorship but would be relevant for sale of assets as well. As long as we sold the ground at a realistic price then we’ll be ok. What a realistic price is will be a bit of an issue as valuations are usually done using comparable sales andthere haven’t been many 24,000 seater sports grounds sold on the open market in the Thames Valley recently ! Would be interesting to know what value we had attachedto it in our accounts.
I think the sale of the training ground was reported to have been cleared with the EFL before it happened, I wonder if we had the foresight to do the same with the stadium sale ?
As for Boro being the one’s complaining, I wonder how many millions Steve Gibson has pumped into their coffers ?


Presumably in land value alone the stadium must be worth a pretty high amount of money, given where it is situated.


Hard to know, not much you can do with land that has a massive sports stadium sat on it with a sitting tenant !
Still not sure how usable the land is given the origins but I guess REP got the go ahead so there must be ways of developing it without the contamination they had to work with when they built the ground.

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Re: Have we sold the Mad Stad to the owners/someone else?

by Green » 06 Sep 2019 10:41

Nameless
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Nameless The sale shouldn’t Be an issue, it’s the valuation that will catch people.
The EFL rules state that any transactions must be at a genuine market rate. This is in the context of supplying goods and services and sponsorship but would be relevant for sale of assets as well. As long as we sold the ground at a realistic price then we’ll be ok. What a realistic price is will be a bit of an issue as valuations are usually done using comparable sales andthere haven’t been many 24,000 seater sports grounds sold on the open market in the Thames Valley recently ! Would be interesting to know what value we had attachedto it in our accounts.
I think the sale of the training ground was reported to have been cleared with the EFL before it happened, I wonder if we had the foresight to do the same with the stadium sale ?
As for Boro being the one’s complaining, I wonder how many millions Steve Gibson has pumped into their coffers ?

The EFL seem a trifle naive to me.

We're talking about multi million pound businesses, if the government can't get the likes of amazon and starbucks to pay tax, what makes the EFL think a few regulations will really make a difference? The clubs can just structure their finance round it - be it stadium sales or whatever else.


Except clubs have been caught trying to get round the rules and have been punished for it.
There is nothing wrong in doing things within the rules. However if you say your stadiumis worth £40:million and then you sell it to yourself for £60 million you are going to get pulled up on it.

Well yeh, don't do that. Breaking the rules is not getting round the rules.

But you can layer and bundle the transactions and structure them in a certain way as to do so.

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Re: Have we sold the Mad Stad to the owners/someone else?

by From Despair To Where? » 06 Sep 2019 13:49

Nameless The sale shouldn’t Be an issue, it’s the valuation that will catch people.
The EFL rules state that any transactions must be at a genuine market rate. This is in the context of supplying goods and services and sponsorship but would be relevant for sale of assets as well. As long as we sold the ground at a realistic price then we’ll be ok. What a realistic price is will be a bit of an issue as valuations are usually done using comparable sales andthere haven’t been many 24,000 seater sports grounds sold on the open market in the Thames Valley recently ! Would be interesting to know what value we had attachedto it in our accounts.
I think the sale of the training ground was reported to have been cleared with the EFL before it happened, I wonder if we had the foresight to do the same with the stadium sale ?
As for Boro being the one’s complaining, I wonder how many millions Steve Gibson has pumped into their coffers ?


Didn't Gibson "buy" the Riverside off Boro about 25 years ago.

As you say though, the key here is did the owners pay market value and how do you even place a value on a stadium. It has no market value as such because there is no market. I suppose our owners at least paid less than the construction cost and we can point to a history of it being multi use.

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Re: Have we sold the Mad Stad to the owners/someone else?

by The Royal Forester » 06 Sep 2019 14:24

I thought I heard or read somewhere it was the new training ground the Chinese had bought. At least, if that is true, it would be better than the stadium being sold. If things go wrong in the future, we could (at the expense of Grade 1), do without a training ground more than we could do without a stadium, unless we can groundshare with another local (?) team, If that did happen who's ground would you choose to use? I don't think there would be many takers for Oxf**d or Swineden, so that could leave Wycombe (as they do not seem to be on a par with the aforementioned clubs) but would attendance issues prevail? I guess QPR also would be left out. Brentford's new ground with tenants, not really likely. Brighton might be worth thinking about just to wind up the Seagulls fans! Southamton would seem the most likely to me, but would be last on the list of many.


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Re: Have we sold the Mad Stad to the owners/someone else?

by muirinho » 06 Sep 2019 15:03

The Royal Forester I thought I heard or read somewhere it was the new training ground the Chinese had bought. At least, if that is true, it would be better than the stadium being sold. If things go wrong in the future, we could (at the expense of Grade 1), do without a training ground more than we could do without a stadium, unless we can groundshare with another local (?) team, If that did happen who's ground would you choose to use? I don't think there would be many takers for Oxf**d or Swineden, so that could leave Wycombe (as they do not seem to be on a par with the aforementioned clubs) but would attendance issues prevail? I guess QPR also would be left out. Brentford's new ground with tenants, not really likely. Brighton might be worth thinking about just to wind up the Seagulls fans! Southamton would seem the most likely to me, but would be last on the list of many.



doesn't matter a toss whether we sold the ground, or the training ground, or the carpark, or Kingsley's costume to the Chinese, It's their club, so it's irrelevant which bit of their empire owns the ground. If they want to, they can screw us over.

If we did need to groundshare, club rivalries would probably be ignored in favour of working out which stadium would be suitable in size, met the appropriate league requirements and was easiest to get to for supporters. The obvious answer would be a London club, failing that I'd say the Kassam would be reasonably likely - maybe with the increased income they could afford to build themselves another stand.

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Re: Have we sold the Mad Stad to the owners/someone else?

by RoyalBlue » 06 Sep 2019 15:08

Nameless
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Nameless The sale shouldn’t Be an issue, it’s the valuation that will catch people.
The EFL rules state that any transactions must be at a genuine market rate. This is in the context of supplying goods and services and sponsorship but would be relevant for sale of assets as well. As long as we sold the ground at a realistic price then we’ll be ok. What a realistic price is will be a bit of an issue as valuations are usually done using comparable sales andthere haven’t been many 24,000 seater sports grounds sold on the open market in the Thames Valley recently ! Would be interesting to know what value we had attachedto it in our accounts.
I think the sale of the training ground was reported to have been cleared with the EFL before it happened, I wonder if we had the foresight to do the same with the stadium sale ?
As for Boro being the one’s complaining, I wonder how many millions Steve Gibson has pumped into their coffers ?


Presumably in land value alone the stadium must be worth a pretty high amount of money, given where it is situated.


Hard to know, not much you can do with land that has a massive sports stadium sat on it with a sitting tenant !
Still not sure how usable the land is given the origins but I guess REP got the go ahead so there must be ways of developing it without the contamination they had to work with when they built the ground.


I doubt the club's tenancy is particularly secure, which is why it's so vital that the stadium and ground it's built on is owned by someone who cares about the football side of things. I believe the land was all sorted as part of the original deal struck with the council and covered off in planning consents. I suspect it will be the commercial value of the land that the owners push for FFP valuation purposes.

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Re: Have we sold the Mad Stad to the owners/someone else?

by Nameless » 06 Sep 2019 18:34

Woukd be interesting to know the terms of the lease wouldn’t it !
We certainly did a lot of remediation work when the ground was built but it is still a landfill site with methane produced and you’d think there would be restrictions on what it could be used for.
Not sure valuing it as potential development land would maximise it’s value would it ? There are probably some chartered surveyors on here who could make a good guess but what would a 5ha industrial site fetch in the area ?

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Re: Have we sold the Mad Stad to the owners/someone else?

by RoyalBlue » 06 Sep 2019 18:44

Nameless Woukd be interesting to know the terms of the lease wouldn’t it !
We certainly did a lot of remediation work when the ground was built but it is still a landfill site with methane produced and you’d think there would be restrictions on what it could be used for.
Not sure valuing it as potential development land would maximise it’s value would it ? There are probably some chartered surveyors on here who could make a good guess but what would a 5ha industrial site fetch in the area ?


It would surely go for housing though wouldn't it? I believe all the measures were put in place to deal with the methane etc. REP would have housing.


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Re: Have we sold the Mad Stad to the owners/someone else?

by multisync1830 » 07 Sep 2019 08:26

Nameless Woukd be interesting to know the terms of the lease wouldn’t it !
We certainly did a lot of remediation work when the ground was built but it is still a landfill site with methane produced and you’d think there would be restrictions on what it could be used for.
Not sure valuing it as potential development land would maximise it’s value would it ? There are probably some chartered surveyors on here who could make a good guess but what would a 5ha industrial site fetch in the area ?


All over the ground and hotel there are ventilation extract fans with explosive proof fans venting the subsoil. The methane is constantly monitored.
The area was cleaned to 1999 standards far below what is done now and a several hundred million pounds behind the Olympics site
However building on heavily contaminated brown field sites has moved on. The original plans included potential redevelopment of the carpark area but was rejected on a cost benefit analysis and never revisited until the club sale was in full swing. It was the American asset stripper who helicoptered over and suddenly that land become more interesting than the club. I was convinced at the time the Thais were really only interested in the land but was assured at a high level they were trying to like football but wanted to use it as a showcase for their other interests . I think they took the value out the club by keeping the land so ultimately its in a far weaker position .
SJM during his tenure was a tremendous asset but in his haste to sell in the fullness of time hasn't done the club any favours...imho

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Re: Have we sold the Mad Stad to the owners/someone else?

by Nameless » 07 Sep 2019 13:18

Clearly work was done, they had to install impermeable membrane to protect the ground water as well as putting the venting in.
My concern would be how much development you could do without lots more remediation work.
As RB. Points out though REP got planning permission so clearly development is possible.

Slightly odd comments about the Thai’s. They certainly had football pedigree in the group although not all of them knew much about it. They was definitely a plan to use the club to showcase products and the most obvious example of that was Carabao.

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Re: Have we sold the Mad Stad to the owners/someone else?

by multisync1830 » 07 Sep 2019 14:37

Nameless Clearly work was done, they had to install impermeable membrane to protect the ground water as well as putting the venting in.
My concern would be how much development you could do without lots more remediation work.
As RB. Points out though REP got planning permission so clearly development is possible.

Slightly odd comments about the Thai’s. They certainly had football pedigree in the group although not all of them knew much about it. They was definitely a plan to use the club to showcase products and the most obvious example of that was Carabao.

Youre obviously extremely well informed as the membrane comment reflects..
However the consortium was a rather strange mix and my 'like'quip was more aimed at elderly Thai lady although tbf she appeared to put in more effort than some of the others..
as i say for me it just never 'felt' right and i suspect there were probably some doubts at board level but by then caution was not uppermost in their minds

Still surprised REP hasnt gone ahead considering the number of Thai professionals shipped over and a discrete design office installed in the stadium to produce the plans at some considerable expense..

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Re: Have we sold the Mad Stad to the owners/someone else?

by Nameless » 07 Sep 2019 17:21

multisync1830
Nameless Clearly work was done, they had to install impermeable membrane to protect the ground water as well as putting the venting in.
My concern would be how much development you could do without lots more remediation work.
As RB. Points out though REP got planning permission so clearly development is possible.

Slightly odd comments about the Thai’s. They certainly had football pedigree in the group although not all of them knew much about it. They was definitely a plan to use the club to showcase products and the most obvious example of that was Carabao.

Youre obviously extremely well informed as the membrane comment reflects..
However the consortium was a rather strange mix and my 'like'quip was more aimed at elderly Thai lady although tbf she appeared to put in more effort than some of the others..
as i say for me it just never 'felt' right and i suspect there were probably some doubts at board level but by then caution was not uppermost in their minds

Still surprised REP hasnt gone ahead considering the number of Thai professionals shipped over and a discrete design office installed in the stadium to produce the plans at some considerable expense..


Suspect the economic outlook meant REP looked a lot less attractive. The expense of doing the planning would be nothing to the cost of doing the construction. I’m expecting the Dai’s to buy the land back at some point, I reckon if the Thai’s can recover their costs and make a small profit they’d be happy to step away. For the Dai’s having the land back fully under their control has obvious advantages and as and when the economy picks up ( current outlook 2049 if Boris has his way) it’s exactly the sort of project they have made their fortune from.

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Re: Have we sold the Mad Stad to the owners/someone else?

by Snowflake Royal » 07 Sep 2019 17:43

Nameless
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Nameless The sale shouldn’t Be an issue, it’s the valuation that will catch people.
The EFL rules state that any transactions must be at a genuine market rate. This is in the context of supplying goods and services and sponsorship but would be relevant for sale of assets as well. As long as we sold the ground at a realistic price then we’ll be ok. What a realistic price is will be a bit of an issue as valuations are usually done using comparable sales andthere haven’t been many 24,000 seater sports grounds sold on the open market in the Thames Valley recently ! Would be interesting to know what value we had attachedto it in our accounts.
I think the sale of the training ground was reported to have been cleared with the EFL before it happened, I wonder if we had the foresight to do the same with the stadium sale ?
As for Boro being the one’s complaining, I wonder how many millions Steve Gibson has pumped into their coffers ?

The EFL seem a trifle naive to me.

We're talking about multi million pound businesses, if the government can't get the likes of amazon and starbucks to pay tax, what makes the EFL think a few regulations will really make a difference? The clubs can just structure their finance round it - be it stadium sales or whatever else.


Except clubs have been caught trying to get round the rules and have been punished for it.
There is nothing wrong in doing things within the rules. However if you say your stadiumis worth £40:million and then you sell it to yourself for £60 million you are going to get pulled up on it.

The Gov also need Google and Amazon more than the FL need any one club. And those clubs are totally within the jurisdiction of the FL. Mega corps are multinational and don't just fall under HMG.

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Re: Have we sold the Mad Stad to the owners/someone else?

by windermereROYAL » 08 Sep 2019 00:12

I see us and the other two are being scrutinised, but didn`t Villa do the same thing, is there a different law for he ELF and PL?

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Re: Have we sold the Mad Stad to the owners/someone else?

by multisync1830 » 08 Sep 2019 09:14

Nameless
multisync1830
Nameless Clearly work was done, they had to install impermeable membrane to protect the ground water as well as putting the venting in.
My concern would be how much development you could do without lots more remediation work.
As RB. Points out though REP got planning permission so clearly development is possible.

Slightly odd comments about the Thai’s. They certainly had football pedigree in the group although not all of them knew much about it. They was definitely a plan to use the club to showcase products and the most obvious example of that was Carabao.

Youre obviously extremely well informed as the membrane comment reflects..
However the consortium was a rather strange mix and my 'like'quip was more aimed at elderly Thai lady although tbf she appeared to put in more effort than some of the others..
as i say for me it just never 'felt' right and i suspect there were probably some doubts at board level but by then caution was not uppermost in their minds

Still surprised REP hasnt gone ahead considering the number of Thai professionals shipped over and a discrete design office installed in the stadium to produce the plans at some considerable expense..


Suspect the economic outlook meant REP looked a lot less attractive. The expense of doing the planning would be nothing to the cost of doing the construction. I’m expecting the Dai’s to buy the land back at some point, I reckon if the Thai’s can recover their costs and make a small profit they’d be happy to step away. For the Dai’s having the land back fully under their control has obvious advantages and as and when the economy picks up ( current outlook 2049 if Boris has his way) it’s exactly the sort of project they have made their fortune from.

The pauback only comes after completion so any money spent to that point is a total loss. The planning application adds value to the land on paper only. Of course those involved are all rather well off so this project is small fry but building in a recession is the most profitable business model Provided you have sufficient funds to sustain you through it.
If the Dai's are going to buy then the club regains some of its integrity lost during the last 5 years of what can only be described as mainly chaos

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