England - the future....

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Sanguine
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Re: England - the future....

by Sanguine » 14 Jul 2021 12:51

TiagoIlori
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TiagoIlori We never had such a good shot at winning both the World Cup and Euros as we did over the last three years. Even the most extreme of Southgate’s backers would be annoyed at his game management there, especially after he made the exact same mistake against Croatia. Those games were when that midfield battle was lost and it seems to be a three man midfield that does it, if he can’t build the next few blocks and get us adaptable to games like this then he may as well hand in his resignation notice tomorrow morning. If he has ideas then great, I look forward to seeing them in action.

He’s got absolutely everything else to show he’s a top manager, the lack of good English managers shows we’re not going to get much better, I hope he doesn’t throw it all away.


He has ideas. That's why he's become the first England manager ever to make both a tournament semi-final and final, and he's done it consecutively. Immediacy can be for the playground. We're on to a good thing with Southgate as England manager. Personally I'd give him the job for as long as he wants it. Sadly the second we next lose a game, or if, say, we 'only' make the QFs in Qatar, his critics will cite it as 'proof' that he isn't up to it.

He’s done it consecutively but failed on the same hurdle, tried sitting back against Italy for 88 minutes which was suicidal, he needs to be more brave and not wait to make tactical adjustments until a goal has been scored- he needed to go 433 after how we started the second half. That was obvious for everyone to see.

If he beats the big dogs next year in Qatar then that alone should be enough to warrant him staying (Germany were no better than Denmark this tournament). Beat one of Argentina, Brazil, Italy and possibly Spain, France or Germany if they can get their act together. We can beat the near top teams where we are favourites (Germany, Denmark) so I just want to see progress.


Germany are a top team. They don't become shite just because we beat them. Remember at one point during the final group games we were playing each and every team in Germany's group. They weren't as 'poor' as people want to remember them.

Spain is an interesting one. The reason they weren't in our side of the knockout rounds is because they came second in their group to Sweden. Who lost to Ukraine. Who we hammered.

If you're waiting for an England manager who will 'progress' to regularly beating the best sides in the world (Southgate can boast away wins over Spain and Netherlands, of course), then you'll be waiting forever. People speak as if the other sides don't get a say in our results, too. We did get draws with Germany, Brazil and Italy ahead of the 2018 World Cup, and our 3-2 defeat in France was considered an excellent performance (I wonder if we'd take an expansive losing performance like that over a tighter draw or win?).

If the bar for Southgate's success is raised as high as many want it to be, it gets a bit silly.

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Re: England - the future....

by WestYorksRoyal » 14 Jul 2021 12:57

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WestYorksRoyal Bellingham is already a massive player for Dortmund who has played in CL knockout games for them. Mount and Foden have been key players for very good sides. This bunch are light years ahead.


Yep, couldn't agree more.


Sure - the signs are promising - the overriding point really was that we shouldn’t be putting too much pressure on our young players

Didn’t Loftus Cheek come off a really successful loan spell at Palace before the WC (yeah I know, comparing Palace to Dortmund/Chelsea/City :lol: ) Was more emphasising how quickly players’ fortunes can change

Dier is also another classic example as he was excellent for the first few years for Spurs - playing regularly - the new “star” of the England midfield, and he’s now the laughing stock of the country
Not suggesting that Rice and Bellingham and co will fall the same way but just making the point

Of course it can go wrong. It's easy to forget how good Wilshere was when he started out for Arsenal until he lost out to injuries. And Alli has basically fallen off a cliff in football terms; he peaked in his teens.

But I'm hoping that these guys are grounded and well managed to keep their development going. Can't imagine them showing the attitude of Alli.

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Re: England - the future....

by Scutterbucketz » 14 Jul 2021 14:17

England team refuse to meet Johnson.

With the reach they have I wish it was more than Tyrone Mings speaking out.

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Re: England - the future....

by TiagoIlori » 14 Jul 2021 15:25

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He has ideas. That's why he's become the first England manager ever to make both a tournament semi-final and final, and he's done it consecutively. Immediacy can be for the playground. We're on to a good thing with Southgate as England manager. Personally I'd give him the job for as long as he wants it. Sadly the second we next lose a game, or if, say, we 'only' make the QFs in Qatar, his critics will cite it as 'proof' that he isn't up to it.

He’s done it consecutively but failed on the same hurdle, tried sitting back against Italy for 88 minutes which was suicidal, he needs to be more brave and not wait to make tactical adjustments until a goal has been scored- he needed to go 433 after how we started the second half. That was obvious for everyone to see.

If he beats the big dogs next year in Qatar then that alone should be enough to warrant him staying (Germany were no better than Denmark this tournament). Beat one of Argentina, Brazil, Italy and possibly Spain, France or Germany if they can get their act together. We can beat the near top teams where we are favourites (Germany, Denmark) so I just want to see progress.


Germany are a top team. They don't become shite just because we beat them. Remember at one point during the final group games we were playing each and every team in Germany's group. They weren't as 'poor' as people want to remember them.

Spain is an interesting one. The reason they weren't in our side of the knockout rounds is because they came second in their group to Sweden. Who lost to Ukraine. Who we hammered.

If you're waiting for an England manager who will 'progress' to regularly beating the best sides in the world (Southgate can boast away wins over Spain and Netherlands, of course), then you'll be waiting forever. People speak as if the other sides don't get a say in our results, too. We did get draws with Germany, Brazil and Italy ahead of the 2018 World Cup, and our 3-2 defeat in France was considered an excellent performance (I wonder if we'd take an expansive losing performance like that over a tighter draw or win?).

If the bar for Southgate's success is raised as high as many want it to be, it gets a bit silly.

Germany have been a shadow of themselves since the 2016 Euros, it’s not a matter of we beat them they must be awful it’s simply they did not look like a side capable of winning the tournament this Euros or the last World Cup. Ask any German how they felt coming up to this tournament.

Spain 100% got better as time went on, they looked awful until that Slovakia game where it seemed like it was starting to click, otherwise it was a load of sideways passing with players that did not understand the system Enrique wanted. Maybe it was a tournament too soon for them, I don’t know.

I’m waiting for a manager that can beat a genuine contender in a major tournament as long has been England’s stumbling block, we’ve always been able to beat these teams outside them yet not when it mattered. It doesn’t mean winning everything to show that.

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Re: England - the future....

by Sanguine » 14 Jul 2021 15:42

Lol. So find a way to sneak past a decent Spain team in a major tournament, and winning the thing doesn't matter, we can say we've taken a big scalp. #henmanfistbump

I'm thoroughly fed up with people 'qualifying' our success with the view that we only got there because the opposition were sub-standard. I repeat my earlier point, if the only satisfactory manager makes us (effectively) the best team in Europe/the world, then you'll be waiting forever.


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Re: England - the future....

by Orion1871 » 14 Jul 2021 19:48

A Germany team outside of the world top 10 is a bad Germany team. They came into the tournament as a team in transition who had a lame duck manager.

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Re: England - the future....

by Green » 14 Jul 2021 20:08

Doing the rounds in Germany

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Re: England - the future....

by St Pauli » 15 Jul 2021 02:41

windermereROYAL Think our bid for 2030 WC should be withdrawn, absolute waste of time, the organisers would only need to look at news clips of ticketless fans forcing their way in and the disgusting trashing of Leicester square to throw it out without a second thought.

https://www.itemfix.com/v?t=2mwguk


+1

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Re: England - the future....

by St Pauli » 15 Jul 2021 02:42

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windermereROYAL think our bid for 2030 WC should be withdrawn, absolute waste of time, the organisers would only need to look at news clips of ticketless fans forcing their way in and the disgusting trashing of Leicester square to throw it out without a second thought.

https://www.itemfix.com/v?t=2mwguk

Fairly certain this happens in many places during the hosting of a major tournament. Agree it isn't a good look for us but we are by no means alone when it comes to bad behaviour.


Not in the same numbers, to the same extent, with the same number of drunks.


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Re: England - the future....

by St Pauli » 15 Jul 2021 02:55

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WestYorksRoyal The thought of hosting a major tournament used to excite me but I'm not sure I want it after this weekend. At least overseas we can force the known hooligans and thugs to stay at home.


Hoping lessons will be learnt by 2030. Whilst the blame for the events outside Wembley are the sole responsibility of the idiots doing it, I am very unahppy with the levels of policing and contingency planning. Wembley should have had a ring of steel around it and a huge police presence in place. Also ridiculous to have fan parks so close to the stadium in which ticketless fans could get pissed up in all day. If you have to have them then have them well away from the stadiums.


Yep, the most shocking bit of the footage for me was seeing stewards, and very few of them too, getting flattened by rampaging England fans. The police presence looked to be tiny. Awful planning.


I’m not sure how you police thousands of shitfaced blokes all trying to get to one location. Placing fan parks far away would have just meant empty fan parks.

The only thing I think might have limited it is stopping tube travel to Wembley to stop thousands arriving pissed and then getting more pissed on Wembley way. But then how do you help non pissed ticket holding fans get to the game? If you move ticket checks to another tube station you’ll just have to have huge policing operations on every tube station. And even then if fans have all day they can just walk to Wembley. So what do you do then? Make a huge G8 summit style perimeter fence around Wembley? That also has the capacity to allow tens of thousands of legitimate ticketed fans through?

When you present that kind of plan to the FIFA/UEFA you’re basically already accepting that you’re not really able to host safely.

The lesson that needs learning is ‘don’t drink all day and be a massive c/nt’. Not a lesson I think we’re going to learn by 2030.

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Re: England - the future....

by Silver Fox » 15 Jul 2021 08:09

Green Doing the rounds in Germany


Who said the Germans don't have a sense of humour!

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Re: England - the future....

by Sanguine » 15 Jul 2021 08:43

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Hoping lessons will be learnt by 2030. Whilst the blame for the events outside Wembley are the sole responsibility of the idiots doing it, I am very unahppy with the levels of policing and contingency planning. Wembley should have had a ring of steel around it and a huge police presence in place. Also ridiculous to have fan parks so close to the stadium in which ticketless fans could get pissed up in all day. If you have to have them then have them well away from the stadiums.


Yep, the most shocking bit of the footage for me was seeing stewards, and very few of them too, getting flattened by rampaging England fans. The police presence looked to be tiny. Awful planning.


I’m not sure how you police thousands of shitfaced blokes all trying to get to one location. Placing fan parks far away would have just meant empty fan parks.

The only thing I think might have limited it is stopping tube travel to Wembley to stop thousands arriving pissed and then getting more pissed on Wembley way. But then how do you help non pissed ticket holding fans get to the game? If you move ticket checks to another tube station you’ll just have to have huge policing operations on every tube station. And even then if fans have all day they can just walk to Wembley. So what do you do then? Make a huge G8 summit style perimeter fence around Wembley? That also has the capacity to allow tens of thousands of legitimate ticketed fans through?

When you present that kind of plan to the FIFA/UEFA you’re basically already accepting that you’re not really able to host safely.

The lesson that needs learning is ‘don’t drink all day and be a massive c/nt’. Not a lesson I think we’re going to learn by 2030.


All fair points, especially the final one. I'm not sure the problem can be answered - there's just been a shift change, it seems, in the way some fans think that they are entitled to behave.

I was at the Nou Camp five or six years ago when City played Barca in the Champions League. A few thousand very pissed up City fans arriving at a single 'gate' at the stadium - I remember thinking how relaxed entry was but admit I didn't really consider the potential for trouble, or notice much policing. I say 'gate' as the entry for City fans amounted to gap in the outer concourse on to which had been placed some concrete bollards to separate fans into lines. Security doing random body searches and bag searches, but otherwise just show your ticket and walk on through. And no trouble that I encountered, or read about subsequently.

The England stuff has left me totally perplexed. I don't really understand what I saw, why it happened, or what can be done about it - just feels to me like we've gone back 30 years to the bad old days of hooliganism and our European ban.

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Re: England - the future....

by Zip » 15 Jul 2021 10:08

I’ve never really understood the drinking culture surrounding football. It’s never interested me. It’s all about the game for me. That’s what I look forward to along with going with my son and mixing with the various ST holders who I have gotten to know over the years.

What happened on Sunday was thuggish, embarrassing and all part of a sense of entitlement that some people seem to have these days.


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Re: England - the future....

by Hendo » 15 Jul 2021 10:43

Zip I’ve never really understood the drinking culture surrounding football. It’s never interested me. It’s all about the game for me. That’s what I look forward to along with going with my son and mixing with the various ST holders who I have gotten to know over the years.

What happened on Sunday was thuggish, embarrassing and all part of a sense of entitlement that some people seem to have these days.


Agree. I like to have a pint or 2 before the game, but that is usually about it.

Said to Lady Hendo on Sunday that I didn't want to have loads to drink because it might end up being a day I want to remember for the rest of my life and if I have too much, I will just forget it.

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Re: England - the future....

by Donny Ironside » 15 Jul 2021 10:44

Zip I’ve never really understood the drinking culture surrounding football. It’s never interested me. It’s all about the game for me. That’s what I look forward to along with going with my son and mixing with the various ST holders who I have gotten to know over the years.

What happened on Sunday was thuggish, embarrassing and all part of a sense of entitlement that some people seem to have these days.


you should see the rugby at twickers mate.....

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Re: England - the future....

by NathStPaul » 15 Jul 2021 10:50

Hendo
Zip I’ve never really understood the drinking culture surrounding football. It’s never interested me. It’s all about the game for me. That’s what I look forward to along with going with my son and mixing with the various ST holders who I have gotten to know over the years.

What happened on Sunday was thuggish, embarrassing and all part of a sense of entitlement that some people seem to have these days.


Agree. I like to have a pint or 2 before the game, but that is usually about it.

Said to Lady Hendo on Sunday that I didn't want to have loads to drink because it might end up being a day I want to remember for the rest of my life and if I have too much, I will just forget it.

Yep I'm the same. It sounds very boring but if I go to a Reading away game I like to have a look around the town and ground, take some photos of the stadium and have a nice lunch before the game. I also like to get in early and watch the warm up, it fascinates me. As a coach myself I sometimes take notes of any goalkeeping warm ups that I've not seen before to use going forward. I'd hate to be going on a long journey and getting pissed up before the match, pointless to me.

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Re: England - the future....

by St Pauli » 15 Jul 2021 11:15

I like getting smashed at football on occasion but I tend to draw the line at barging my way through disabled doors pushing kids in wheelchairs out of the way.

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Re: England - the future....

by URZZZZ » 15 Jul 2021 11:26

NathStPaul
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Zip I’ve never really understood the drinking culture surrounding football. It’s never interested me. It’s all about the game for me. That’s what I look forward to along with going with my son and mixing with the various ST holders who I have gotten to know over the years.

What happened on Sunday was thuggish, embarrassing and all part of a sense of entitlement that some people seem to have these days.


Agree. I like to have a pint or 2 before the game, but that is usually about it.

Said to Lady Hendo on Sunday that I didn't want to have loads to drink because it might end up being a day I want to remember for the rest of my life and if I have too much, I will just forget it.

Yep I'm the same. It sounds very boring but if I go to a Reading away game I like to have a look around the town and ground, take some photos of the stadium and have a nice lunch before the game. I also like to get in early and watch the warm up, it fascinates me. As a coach myself I sometimes take notes of any goalkeeping warm ups that I've not seen before to use going forward. I'd hate to be going on a long journey and getting pissed up before the match, pointless to me.


I don’t know - a good coping mechanism to get through Stam’s games

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Re: England - the future....

by Simmops » 15 Jul 2021 12:10

St Pauli I like getting smashed at football on occasion but I tend to draw the line at barging my way through disabled doors pushing kids in wheelchairs out of the way.


I used to get drunk at away games on the journey up there, last time it got me kicked out and banned for abusing somebody that wronged me (that oxf*rd oxf*rd oxf*rd :evil: ), then got into a fight and ended up winning by headbutt outside a pub in reading against a few people vs me

was drinking rom 7 am that day... bad times

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Re: England - the future....

by Simmops » 15 Jul 2021 12:12

URZZZZ
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Hendo
Agree. I like to have a pint or 2 before the game, but that is usually about it.

Said to Lady Hendo on Sunday that I didn't want to have loads to drink because it might end up being a day I want to remember for the rest of my life and if I have too much, I will just forget it.

Yep I'm the same. It sounds very boring but if I go to a Reading away game I like to have a look around the town and ground, take some photos of the stadium and have a nice lunch before the game. I also like to get in early and watch the warm up, it fascinates me. As a coach myself I sometimes take notes of any goalkeeping warm ups that I've not seen before to use going forward. I'd hate to be going on a long journey and getting pissed up before the match, pointless to me.


I don’t know - a good coping mechanism to get through Stam’s games


I use to sneak in hip flasks to those games with whisky in my Bovril or Coke... I got banned before and flicked beer over somebody which apparently is an arrestable offence and violent abuse :roll: when drinking at a game

It is all past me now, and I never drink at games anymore

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