England - the future....

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Re: England - the future....

by Victor Meldrew » 16 Nov 2019 12:44

Royal Rother
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Royal Rother Foden should be ahead of all the aforementioned young midfielders.


Still too early for Foden.
Next season, when he replaces David Silva , we will see whether he is up to it.


Only because he’s not getting game time. If he was at Chelsea he’d be playing and probably be a starter for England I suspect as he’s going to be better than Mount, Maddison and Winks.



IIRc when you were interested in professional football you were a bit of an Arsenal/Jack Wilshere fan.
Foden, being all left foot, reminds me of Wilshere-let's hope that Foden stays clear of injuries and drugs.

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Re: England - the future....

by Royal Rother » 16 Nov 2019 13:06

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Still too early for Foden.
Next season, when he replaces David Silva , we will see whether he is up to it.


Only because he’s not getting game time. If he was at Chelsea he’d be playing and probably be a starter for England I suspect as he’s going to be better than Mount, Maddison and Winks.



IIRc when you were interested in professional football you were a bit of an Arsenal/Jack Wilshere fan.
Foden, being all left foot, reminds me of Wilshere-let's hope that Foden stays clear of injuries and drugs.


Funny that - I thought about Wilshere when I posted that! :lol:

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Re: England - the future....

by Hoop Blah » 18 Nov 2019 11:32

Royal Rother
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Royal Rother Foden should be ahead of all the aforementioned young midfielders.


Still too early for Foden.
Next season, when he replaces David Silva , we will see whether he is up to it.


Only because he’s not getting game time. If he was at Chelsea he’d be playing and probably be a starter for England I suspect as he’s going to be better than Mount, Maddison and Winks.


I agree on Foden, but obviously he needs to be playing more games to force his way in. Southgate, for all his comments about players needing to play, has called players up with limited amount of game time (Hudson-Odoi, Oxlade-Chamberlain, Gomez, Delph, Barkley to an extent) so he probably doesn't have to be playing week-in, week-out, but he does need to be playing well. His performances for the U21s will be doing him the world of good too.

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Re: England - the future....

by Old Man Andrews » 18 Nov 2019 11:36

Would like to see Foden have a short loan in January. Somewhere like Everton or Newcastle would be ideal, go and be the star of the show and play competitive football each week.

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Re: England - the future....

by Hoop Blah » 18 Nov 2019 11:46

URZZZZ
Hoop Blah How anonymous was Mason Mount last night by the way?

People bang on about Barkley not deserving a place in the side, but if Mount is the alternative I don't see how anyone could make an argument for Mount based on his England appearances to date. He's obviously still young and inexperienced, and is probably in need of a rest after a heavy workload for Chelsea, but apart from being neat and tidy I've never really seen anything to get excited about with him.

I'm still not sure about Winks either. It's hard to know if he's got the defensive awareness to play that holding role (sorry, it's call the midfield pivot these days isn't it!) when he only really gets to play against the weaker teams (yeah, and Spain I think). I'd still favour Henderson over Winks or Rice, but it's the biggest question mark in the side still.


Currently, Maddison and Grealish are better players than Mount IMO. But I have no problem with seeing Mount in and around the first XI given his age and chances of development. Whereas Barkley has been in and around the England team for over 5 years now and still regularly flatters to decieve with the occasional brilliance against lower league teams. I think Loftus Cheek will go onto be better than Barkley but not sure exactly where he can fit in this team


I think Barkley is judged harshly for some reason. He's done better for England than he gets credit for, and not just by scoring against the weaker nations. Like Winks, Barkley played a key role in the win in Spain and has done well against other bigger teams. Loftus-Cheek and Grealish are both players to consider, as are Maddison and Alli of course, although I think Oxlade-Chamberlain is probably ahead of all of them as one of the more attacking midfielders in the 3.

For all the issues in the midfield, we've actually got a quite a few good players to compete in there.

URZZZZ I can't ever seem to make my mind up about Winks, he's not a bad player but I don't exactly think he's great either. As you say, Henderson is probably a better option there but people seem to criticize Henderson all the time (Champions League winner and all that)


I reckon Henderson offers the best mix for that holding midfielder. He's not as neat and tidy as Winks, although he's a better passer than he's given credit for, and he's not quite as defensive as Rice, he is more mobile and more likely to get the ball forward though.

A Barkley, Henderson, Oxlade-Chamberlain midfield three would be a good start for me, with an in-form Alli most likely to replace Barkley. I'd love to see Maddison in there, but he's more of a 10 than an 8 from what I've seen (as is Alli of course).

URZZZZ I'd also put a question mark over wingers. Sterling is the only one I'm confident about. Rashford probably pips Sancho (never really seen him play well) and Hudson-Odoi (who I think is overrated at this stage of development) but Rashford hardly inspires with confidence. It's a shame we only play with one striker because I'd want to see Kane and Abraham in the same XI


Agreed, although if Rashford continues his return to form then that's a very effective front 3 with lots of pace and goals.

URZZZZ Hopefully though, Southgate has established the best fullback partnership in TAA and Chilwell. I'd be a bit wary of using TAA in a flat back four against the top sides because I think his defending can be improved upon and someone like Walker may be better in that department but offensively these two are by far and away the best


I'd certainly take Walker over Trippier or Wan-Bissaka at the moment, and maybe he'll make the squad after Southgate has looked at the rest. Stones and Maguire are probably the right centre back pairing, but they need to play a run of games again to forge at proper partnership.


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Re: England - the future....

by Victor Meldrew » 18 Nov 2019 12:01

Hoop Blah
URZZZZ
Hoop Blah How anonymous was Mason Mount last night by the way?

People bang on about Barkley not deserving a place in the side, but if Mount is the alternative I don't see how anyone could make an argument for Mount based on his England appearances to date. He's obviously still young and inexperienced, and is probably in need of a rest after a heavy workload for Chelsea, but apart from being neat and tidy I've never really seen anything to get excited about with him.

I'm still not sure about Winks either. It's hard to know if he's got the defensive awareness to play that holding role (sorry, it's call the midfield pivot these days isn't it!) when he only really gets to play against the weaker teams (yeah, and Spain I think). I'd still favour Henderson over Winks or Rice, but it's the biggest question mark in the side still.


Currently, Maddison and Grealish are better players than Mount IMO. But I have no problem with seeing Mount in and around the first XI given his age and chances of development. Whereas Barkley has been in and around the England team for over 5 years now and still regularly flatters to decieve with the occasional brilliance against lower league teams. I think Loftus Cheek will go onto be better than Barkley but not sure exactly where he can fit in this team


I think Barkley is judged harshly for some reason. He's done better for England than he gets credit for, and not just by scoring against the weaker nations. Like Winks, Barkley played a key role in the win in Spain and has done well against other bigger teams. Loftus-Cheek and Grealish are both players to consider, as are Maddison and Alli of course, although I think Oxlade-Chamberlain is probably ahead of all of them as one of the more attacking midfielders in the 3.

For all the issues in the midfield, we've actually got a quite a few good players to compete in there.

URZZZZ I can't ever seem to make my mind up about Winks, he's not a bad player but I don't exactly think he's great either. As you say, Henderson is probably a better option there but people seem to criticize Henderson all the time (Champions League winner and all that)


I reckon Henderson offers the best mix for that holding midfielder. He's not as neat and tidy as Winks, although he's a better passer than he's given credit for, and he's not quite as defensive as Rice, he is more mobile and more likely to get the ball forward though.

A Barkley, Henderson, Oxlade-Chamberlain midfield three would be a good start for me, with an in-form Alli most likely to replace Barkley. I'd love to see Maddison in there, but he's more of a 10 than an 8 from what I've seen (as is Alli of course).

URZZZZ I'd also put a question mark over wingers. Sterling is the only one I'm confident about. Rashford probably pips Sancho (never really seen him play well) and Hudson-Odoi (who I think is overrated at this stage of development) but Rashford hardly inspires with confidence. It's a shame we only play with one striker because I'd want to see Kane and Abraham in the same XI


Agreed, although if Rashford continues his return to form then that's a very effective front 3 with lots of pace and goals.

URZZZZ Hopefully though, Southgate has established the best fullback partnership in TAA and Chilwell. I'd be a bit wary of using TAA in a flat back four against the top sides because I think his defending can be improved upon and someone like Walker may be better in that department but offensively these two are by far and away the best


I'd certainly take Walker over Trippier or Wan-Bissaka at the moment, and maybe he'll make the squad after Southgate has looked at the rest. Stones and Maguire are probably the right centre back pairing, but they need to play a run of games again to forge at proper partnership.


What did you think of Winks last night?
I thought that he took his goal well but , on the downside, he gave the ball away too much, a s did Mings, Trent and Hudson-Odoi.
Also in a game that wasn't played and refereed like a friendly he would have been booked for persistent fouling.

As for Barkley he does play better for country than club which is unusual.
He, as with Winks, is not an automatic starter with his club which presumably says something which may be that the top 4 or 5 club sides are just better than England.

I know Foxy will agree with me in saying I wish England games were not on ITV.

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Re: England - the future....

by 6ft Kerplunk » 18 Nov 2019 12:13

Neither Winks nor Rice look quite good enough to me and Rice looks more likely to develop into a international defensive midfielder.
Winks strikes me as the type of player who if this was the 80s would spend 3-4 years in and around Spurs first team before getting transferred to Norwich or Ipswich and spending a decade there being solid but never threatening a move back to a bigger club. Happy to be proved wrong though as he seems to be rated by those with a better understanding than me.

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Re: England - the future....

by URZZZZ » 18 Nov 2019 12:36

Old Man Andrews Would like to see Foden have a short loan in January. Somewhere like Everton or Newcastle would be ideal, go and be the star of the show and play competitive football each week.


Agree with the principle that Foden needs a loan elsewhere but you have to put him in the correct environment. There’s not much point of putting him in a team like Newcastle who play very defensive (only scored more than one goal in a game twice so far)

Everton is a good shout though. Although competing with Sigurdsson, Iwobi and Bernard may not be great and we’ve seen how poorly Kean is doing there so far given his supposed potential

Would say Bournemouth would be a good fit for him, likely to get regular football and a team who don’t play too dissimilar football to City

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Re: England - the future....

by Old Man Andrews » 18 Nov 2019 12:46

Yeah I agree Newcastle might be a bit too low end for him. I think they only play the way they do because they lack someone like Foden though, they just don't have the players to play expansive, creative football.

Bournemouth is a good shout.


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Re: England - the future....

by Hoop Blah » 18 Nov 2019 14:32

Victor Meldrew What did you think of Winks last night?
I thought that he took his goal well but , on the downside, he gave the ball away too much, a s did Mings, Trent and Hudson-Odoi.
Also in a game that wasn't played and refereed like a friendly he would have been booked for persistent fouling.

As for Barkley he does play better for country than club which is unusual.
He, as with Winks, is not an automatic starter with his club which presumably says something which may be that the top 4 or 5 club sides are just better than England.

I know Foxy will agree with me in saying I wish England games were not on ITV.


I thought Winks did alright, in a position that I don't really see him playing in over the longer term. There are more obvious options for that role who bring more creativity, dynamism and goal threat. He, like Henderson, does allow for a bit of tactical change without having to make a substitution (eg going from 4-3-3 to 4-2-3-1) but he's more likely to play as the holding player than one of the two more attacking midfielders in Southgate's current system (IMO).

Different managers and different teams will always favour one player more than another (eg Mount is favoured over Barkley). It doesn't necessarily mean that they're better or worse, or that England/Southgate should follow Chelsea/Lampard's selections, because what Chelsea need from Mount is different to what England may want from Barkley alongside the different players.

I agree we gave the ball away too much last night. I think the state of the pitch and the lack of a real competitive edge to the game probably contributed to that.

I don't see Mings as an England player unfortunately. It would be great having a naturally left footed centre half but last night, as I seem to recall he did against Bulgaria, he lost his man too easily and too often. Obviously he came out of the Bulgaria game with understandable credit because of everything else that went on, but his actual defending wasn't, for me, good enough.

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Re: England - the future....

by Hoop Blah » 18 Nov 2019 14:37

URZZZZ
Old Man Andrews Would like to see Foden have a short loan in January. Somewhere like Everton or Newcastle would be ideal, go and be the star of the show and play competitive football each week.


Agree with the principle that Foden needs a loan elsewhere but you have to put him in the correct environment. There’s not much point of putting him in a team like Newcastle who play very defensive (only scored more than one goal in a game twice so far)

Everton is a good shout though. Although competing with Sigurdsson, Iwobi and Bernard may not be great and we’ve seen how poorly Kean is doing there so far given his supposed potential

Would say Bournemouth would be a good fit for him, likely to get regular football and a team who don’t play too dissimilar football to City


If City would let him go then a Bournemouth, a Wolves or a Palace would suit him well. I wouldn't disregard Newcastle too quickly either. I agree with OMA that part of the reason they're not too expansive is the quality in the side not just a tactical thing. If their front two could finish I imagine they'd have an ok scoring record. It could be a good stage for him, and Hayden and Shelvey would be a decent midfield for him to play alongside.

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Re: England - the future....

by Hoop Blah » 18 Nov 2019 14:41

6ft Kerplunk Neither Winks nor Rice look quite good enough to me and Rice looks more likely to develop into a international defensive midfielder.


Winks isn't ever going to be defensive enough to provide the steel and cover we think we need against the better sides.

Rice could add that, in the long term. Currently he still looks like a converted centre half playing in the middle of the park, just as Eric Dier did. He's obviously got talent and lots of good judges think he could be that missing piece of the jigsaw but I fear he, like Dier, just isn't quite mobile and agile enough to play that position.

I'd love to be proved wrong, and he's still only 20, so he's got a lot of time to develop. Physically he can't be too different to Roy Keane in size, but Keane just moved that bit more like a midfielder from day one.

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Re: England - the future....

by URZZZZ » 18 Nov 2019 14:56

Hoop Blah
URZZZZ
Old Man Andrews Would like to see Foden have a short loan in January. Somewhere like Everton or Newcastle would be ideal, go and be the star of the show and play competitive football each week.


Agree with the principle that Foden needs a loan elsewhere but you have to put him in the correct environment. There’s not much point of putting him in a team like Newcastle who play very defensive (only scored more than one goal in a game twice so far)

Everton is a good shout though. Although competing with Sigurdsson, Iwobi and Bernard may not be great and we’ve seen how poorly Kean is doing there so far given his supposed potential

Would say Bournemouth would be a good fit for him, likely to get regular football and a team who don’t play too dissimilar football to City


If City would let him go then a Bournemouth, a Wolves or a Palace would suit him well. I wouldn't disregard Newcastle too quickly either. I agree with OMA that part of the reason they're not too expansive is the quality in the side not just a tactical thing. If their front two could finish I imagine they'd have an ok scoring record. It could be a good stage for him, and Hayden and Shelvey would be a decent midfield for him to play alongside.


Perhaps. I just took into account as well that Almiron, who was supposed to be the missing creative spark in Newcastle's attack, has really struggled so far. I suppose it's whether or not you put that down to rigid tactics or adapting to another country

For example, Serge Gnabry joining Pulis at West Brom. We know how defensive Pulis is and Gnabry (who was supposed to be very good) flopped. He's now performing at a good standard for Bayern Munich

Whatever happens to Foden though, I think the worst thing he could do is go abroad for a loan


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Re: England - the future....

by Hoop Blah » 18 Nov 2019 15:02

URZZZZ Perhaps. I just took into account as well that Almiron, who was supposed to be the missing creative spark in Newcastle's attack, has really struggled so far. I suppose it's whether or not you put that down to rigid tactics or adapting to another country

For example, Serge Gnabry joining Pulis at West Brom. We know how defensive Pulis is and Gnabry (who was supposed to be very good) flopped. He's now performing at a good standard for Bayern Munich

Whatever happens to Foden though, I think the worst thing he could do is go abroad for a loan


Yeah, that all makes sense. We'll never really know about Newcastle unless they suddenly get 2 or 3 top quality players.

I can't see City letting Foden go out on loan anyway, so I guess we can just second guess it all 'til the cows come home!

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