Football - The Covid Years

windermereROYAL
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Re: Football - The Covid Years

by windermereROYAL » 11 Oct 2020 22:46

With the so called big 6 controlling every vote, it wont be long until it`s one down and one up from the championship.

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Re: Football - The Covid Years

by URZZZZ » 11 Oct 2020 23:51

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Sutekh I would extend the PL to 40 clubs in two divisions. PL1 with 18 clubs and PL2 with 22. There would be the standard 3 up and 3 down between the divisions.



Don’t know the ins and outs of the idea but apparently a new idea is being proposed where the Prem is being cut to 18 teams which links to your idea

It’s being driven by Liverpool and United and within the new concept, the League Cup and Community Shield will be abolished

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/54499998

More information about it there


Yep PL pissed this has come out so must be on the money.

Not sure where 2 extra clubs fit in the EFL unless 2 extra drop out the bottom or go bust.

Deal includes 25% of all new TV deals going to the EFL, parachute payments scrapped and the play-offs changed so that the team finishing 16th in the PL play off against 3rd to 5th in the Championship.

Would also give more power to 9 clubs defined as long term share holders of the PL.

EFL apparently supportive as will clearly massively boost bank accounts at EFL level even if it makes it harder to get to the top than today.


Personally think it just creates an even greater divide on the pitch between the top teams and the bottom teams in the top division

Doesn’t seem to be an overly popular idea at the moment but I guess we’ll just have to wait and see how it all unfolds

Knowing our luck, if they implement it, it’ll be the season we end up finishing second

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Re: Football - The Covid Years

by Stranded » 12 Oct 2020 08:56

windermereROYAL With the so called big 6 controlling every vote, it wont be long until it`s one down and one up from the championship.


Of course, give total control to essentially 6 clubs and they will eventually make more changes to protect themselves. Say 5 years down the line Utd just escape relegation by finishing 15th on GD, first thing they look to change us removing the play-off spot and only have 2 relegation spots.

Then you will also see rules that only clubs with a stadium that can host 30k plus can be promoted or other such rules to add additional protection.

Some of the ideas in there are actually pretty decent but the trade off on power is probably too much. Fully expect a halfway house to be found.

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Re: Football - The Covid Years

by Old Man Andrews » 12 Oct 2020 09:14

I hope nobody is under the illusion the big clubs are suggesting changes to benefit smaller clubs. They are in it for themselves and always will be, they want a system similar to Spain where the lower leagues are all but worthless and are a vehicle for their youth and B teams.

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Re: Football - The Covid Years

by WestYorksRoyal » 12 Oct 2020 09:55

Very easy to react badly against these ideas. And there are 2 terrible aspects; the new voting structure that gives control to the big 6 and changing the promotion/play-off process.

But it involves a proper rescue package and sustainable funding post-Covid. I'd hope people can engage in discussions and look to improve what's on offer (I assume the proposal is not "take or leave").

Big question marks over Parry's conduct though. As I understand, EFL rescue packages are currently being negotiated with govt and Premier League. He has absolutely no business going behind their back and getting in cahoots with a couple of big clubs, before announcing in a newspaper article without consulting his members. Sackable behaviour.


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Re: Football - The Covid Years

by From Despair To Where? » 12 Oct 2020 10:45

Does seem to be dangling the carrot of more money to the EFL in exchange for a blatant power grab by the big clubs.

Be interesting who the 9 historical clubs would be considering Man City were in the 3rd tier a little 20 years ago and only 6 of the current 20 teams have been in the Premier League every season since 1992. Will Blackburn get the nod? They're one of only 7 teams to win the thing.

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Re: Football - The Covid Years

by Mid Sussex Royal » 12 Oct 2020 10:59

WestYorksRoyal Very easy to react badly against these ideas. And there are 2 terrible aspects; the new voting structure that gives control to the big 6 and changing the promotion/play-off process.

But it involves a proper rescue package and sustainable funding post-Covid. I'd hope people can engage in discussions and look to improve what's on offer (I assume the proposal is not "take or leave").

Big question marks over Parry's conduct though. As I understand, EFL rescue packages are currently being negotiated with govt and Premier League. He has absolutely no business going behind their back and getting in cahoots with a couple of big clubs, before announcing in a newspaper article without consulting his members. Sackable behaviour.


This has been handled appallingly but I do agree there are some merits to some of this; the EFL cannot survive in current format where in the championship owner funding is required to compete.

I'm not completely against reducing the size of the Premier League as would then be in line with other major euro leagues but the championship playoff's can't be on the table, its a showcase event for high performing EFL sides, not low performing premier league sides.

I'm also not against scrapping the league cup which is the property of Man C as they have 2 first team squads. Its not taken seriously by anyone now and attendances have dwindled even when lower league sides play top teams

What needs to happen is for everyone to get round the table and sort it all out; covid has just accelerated a review that was long overdue.

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Re: Football - The Covid Years

by WestYorksRoyal » 12 Oct 2020 11:00

From Despair To Where? Does seem to be dangling the carrot of more money to the EFL in exchange for a blatant power grab by the big clubs.

Be interesting who the 9 historical clubs would be considering Man City were in the 3rd tier a little 20 years ago.

Get rid of the terrible voting structure proposed and go back to 1 club, 1 vote and I could get behind this tbh. Some other aspects I don't particularly like, but the biggest threat to lower league football, even before Covid, has been the enormous resource gap between the PL and the rest. It's led to too many owners betting the house and losing, while inflating wages for their competitors. Also leads to parachute payments, which are both unfair and necessary. As I understand, the proposal would involve salary caps for the Championship, L1 and L2 in addition to extra funding.

There is an awful lot to like about the proposal, and if the big 6's price is less PL and EFL cup matches to allow more European matches and lucrative international matches, so be it. But giving the big 6 the power to unanimously set the direction of the entire footballing pyramid is a compromise too far, and would surely have to be removed before any deal is reached.

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Re: Football - The Covid Years

by From Despair To Where? » 12 Oct 2020 11:08

WestYorksRoyal
From Despair To Where? Does seem to be dangling the carrot of more money to the EFL in exchange for a blatant power grab by the big clubs.

Be interesting who the 9 historical clubs would be considering Man City were in the 3rd tier a little 20 years ago.

Get rid of the terrible voting structure proposed and go back to 1 club, 1 vote and I could get behind this tbh. Some other aspects I don't particularly like, but the biggest threat to lower league football, even before Covid, has been the enormous resource gap between the PL and the rest. It's led to too many owners betting the house and losing, while inflating wages for their competitors. Also leads to parachute payments, which are both unfair and necessary. As I understand, the proposal would involve salary caps for the Championship, L1 and L2 in addition to extra funding.

There is an awful lot to like about the proposal, and if the big 6's price is less PL and EFL cup matches to allow more European matches and lucrative international matches, so be it. But giving the big 6 the power to unanimously set the direction of the entire footballing pyramid is a compromise too far, and would surely have to be removed before any deal is reached.


I agree with pretty much all of this. There is a lot to commend in it but it absolutely cannot be at the price of the big clubs grabbing control.


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Re: Football - The Covid Years

by Mr Angry » 12 Oct 2020 12:34

If the EFL agree to the proposals in "Project Big Picture", then they would be signing the death knell for Professional Football outside 40 or 50 clubs within a decade; anyone who thinks the "Big 6" are doing this for any reasons other than for their own selfish power grab is deluding themselves.

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Re: Football - The Covid Years

by WestYorksRoyal » 12 Oct 2020 12:41

Mr Angry If the EFL agree to the proposals in "Project Big Picture", then they would be signing the death knell for Professional Football outside 40 or 50 clubs within a decade; anyone who thinks the "Big 6" are doing this for any reasons other than for their own selfish power grab is deluding themselves.

How does providing a greater proportion of TV money to L1 and L2 clubs provide the death knell to smaller clubs? I'm happy to disagree with you, but just want to understand the logic of your argument.

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Re: Football - The Covid Years

by Sutekh » 12 Oct 2020 13:22

This “big picture” suggestion should be vetoed as soon as possible. Yet again it’s another plan to enable the tail to wag even more of the dog. Apparent FL backing isn’t a surprise either seeing as the chairman of the FL is Rick Parry who is ex chairman of the PL. If it gets that far, let’s hope none of the current turkeys vote for Christmas.

Also saw somewhere that someone at ManCity is trying to resurrect the plan to put PL B teams into the FL.... :roll:

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Re: Football - The Covid Years

by WestYorksRoyal » 12 Oct 2020 14:59

Sutekh This “big picture” suggestion should be vetoed as soon as possible. Yet again it’s another plan to enable the tail to wag even more of the dog. Apparent FL backing isn’t a surprise either seeing as the chairman of the FL is Rick Parry who is ex chairman of the PL. If it gets that far, let’s hope none of the current turkeys vote for Christmas.

Also saw somewhere that someone at ManCity is trying to resurrect the plan to put PL B teams into the FL.... :roll:

The proposed voting changes are scandalous, but fix that (say 1 vote each, 10 out of 18 needed) and the proposals have a lot of mileage. I can understand opposition to the changes to playoffs and EFL Cup, but let's at least have a proper discussion about pros and cons instead of knee jerks.

I've seen a few people getting it conflated with the PL reserves in EFL issue. There is nothing in the proposals for PL reserves to play in the lower leagues, and the concern over this goes back to the voting rights issue. Ensure proper governance and decision making processes and you protect against such changes in the future. But there should be a landing zone where we can secure sustainable financing for the lower leagues while giving the top clubs fewer domestic commitments to allow them more lucrative continental games and international events.


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Re: Football - The Covid Years

by Sanguine » 12 Oct 2020 15:03

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Mr Angry If the EFL agree to the proposals in "Project Big Picture", then they would be signing the death knell for Professional Football outside 40 or 50 clubs within a decade; anyone who thinks the "Big 6" are doing this for any reasons other than for their own selfish power grab is deluding themselves.

How does providing a greater proportion of TV money to L1 and L2 clubs provide the death knell to smaller clubs? I'm happy to disagree with you, but just want to understand the logic of your argument.


It's the cynics view. And not necessarily the wrong one. The proposals allow the 'big 6' to change the structure of the PL. More TV money to the EFL is one thing - but making it harder to make it to the PL (for example) is another. But the sky (or a deep cave) really is the limit. United struggling along in 15th? Vote through a change to relegation that makes it average points over two seasons. In return for the money going to the EFL, the big 6 want a bigger slice of the pie that is left? They can vote it through.

As above, these proposals look great on the surface for 'English football' in terms of funding, but the price of the biggest clubs controlling the PL is too high.

I'm also not sure that the play-offs proposals are too controversial. Would be two auto relegation places (if I've understood correctly) and the team in 16th would join 3rd to 5th from the Championship in the playoffs. So it's 2.5 relegation spots instead of 3, only difference is 6th spot in the Championship doesn't get a look-in.

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Re: Football - The Covid Years

by WestYorksRoyal » 12 Oct 2020 15:09

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Mr Angry If the EFL agree to the proposals in "Project Big Picture", then they would be signing the death knell for Professional Football outside 40 or 50 clubs within a decade; anyone who thinks the "Big 6" are doing this for any reasons other than for their own selfish power grab is deluding themselves.

How does providing a greater proportion of TV money to L1 and L2 clubs provide the death knell to smaller clubs? I'm happy to disagree with you, but just want to understand the logic of your argument.


It's the cynics view. And not necessarily the wrong one. The proposals allow the 'big 6' to change the structure of the PL. More TV money to the EFL is one thing - but making it harder to make it to the PL (for example) is another. But the sky (or a deep cave) really is the limit. United struggling along in 15th? Vote through a change to relegation that makes it average points over two seasons. In return for the money going to the EFL, the big 6 want a bigger slice of the pie that is left? They can vote it through.

As above, these proposals look great on the surface for 'English football', but the price of the biggest clubs controlling the PL is too high.

I guess the ultimate question is whether we could implement a lot of the changes suggested without ceding the vast amount of control to the big 6 in the way they're demanding. I actually think it could be possible. By cutting down to 18 teams, this money could be moved to the EFL without the big teams being out of pocket. And they would gain from the reduced size and scrapping the EFL cup.

I agree though the voting structure proposed is a price too high to pay. But they must have known that; the other 14 PL teams were never going to give them the votes. Maybe it gives them something to sacrifice in any follow up negotiations.

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Re: Football - The Covid Years

by Mr Angry » 12 Oct 2020 15:35

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Mr Angry If the EFL agree to the proposals in "Project Big Picture", then they would be signing the death knell for Professional Football outside 40 or 50 clubs within a decade; anyone who thinks the "Big 6" are doing this for any reasons other than for their own selfish power grab is deluding themselves.

How does providing a greater proportion of TV money to L1 and L2 clubs provide the death knell to smaller clubs? I'm happy to disagree with you, but just want to understand the logic of your argument.


Not worried about you disagreeing with me; its called debate.

Firstly, this has been brought about more by Leicester winning the Premier League than by Covid; those 6 teams want to prevent that ever happening again.

My logic is this; for a relatively small amount of outlay (£250M sounds a lot, but spread across 72 teams, it equates to less than £3.5M each - and you know the bigger teams in the EFL will expect a bigger share) for a start, 2 teams will go into the National League.

Then, with those 6 clubs running the show (don't be fooled by it being 9; one of the stipulations will be a 2/3rd majority of the 9 - in other words, 6 - will suffice for rule changes) everything will be geared towards them being able to make more money and exploith their brands Worldwide. Never mind dumping the Community Shield and the League Cup, they could turn around and state that, unless they are allowed to join the FA Cup at say, the last 16 stage, they will pull out, and if they do, the winner of the FA Cup doesn't get a European spot....if that happened, what is the point of the FA Cup going forward?

They will insist that their B and possibly even C teams be allowed into the EFL - thus eliminating another 6 or 12 teams to non League.

The possibility of changing the rules for relegation have been mentioned; what it one of the rule changes is that there is no relegation? Couldn't happen? Why not - those clubs would have total control of the rules of the Premier League. It is no coincidence that this is being driven by Man Utd and Liverpool, whose owners are already in US professional sports where there is no relegations....with no chance of every getting to the top division, what happens to sponsorship for EFL teams, or ownership? Who would want to sponsor a club, or own a club, where the chance foir sharing in the riches disappears?

The same with players; any decent young player from our Academy for example, would immediately look to move on to a Premier League club, who could pay a relative pittance to get that player on their books; that would damage the long term viability of the club.

What if - for example - the Kazakhstan National Government through their wealth fund wanted to invest in a football club, one already in the Premier League when this happens, such as Newcastle or Leeds? Well guess what? Those 6 teams would go "Hmmmm, that club with that wealth behind it could threaten us" so they block the possibility of that owner coming into the Premier League. That is one of their stipulations.....

Then there is the TV deal - this is where the real issue lies - the 6 clubs will stitch up the deal so they get the bulk of the money between them, and the rest of the PL get the crumbs. This would maintain their control over the game and destroy any chance of anyone doing a Leicester.

Eventually, with only 6 teams ever able to win anything, or go to Europe, with no FA Cup glory, with young players leaving for next to nothing, fans of smaller clubs will simply stop watching them, and teams will disappear.

Thats my logic.

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Re: Football - The Covid Years

by WestYorksRoyal » 12 Oct 2020 15:43

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Mr Angry If the EFL agree to the proposals in "Project Big Picture", then they would be signing the death knell for Professional Football outside 40 or 50 clubs within a decade; anyone who thinks the "Big 6" are doing this for any reasons other than for their own selfish power grab is deluding themselves.

How does providing a greater proportion of TV money to L1 and L2 clubs provide the death knell to smaller clubs? I'm happy to disagree with you, but just want to understand the logic of your argument.


Not worried about you disagreeing with me; its called debate.

Firstly, this has been brought about more by Leicester winning the Premier League than by Covid; those 6 teams want to prevent that ever happening again.

My logic is this; for a relatively small amount of outlay (£250M sounds a lot, but spread across 72 teams, it equates to less than £3.5M each - and you know the bigger teams in the EFL will expect a bigger share) for a start, 2 teams will go into the National League.

Then, with those 6 clubs running the show (don't be fooled by it being 9; one of the stipulations will be a 2/3rd majority of the 9 - in other words, 6 - will suffice for rule changes) everything will be geared towards them being able to make more money and exploith their brands Worldwide. Never mind dumping the Community Shield and the League Cup, they could turn around and state that, unless they are allowed to join the FA Cup at say, the last 16 stage, they will pull out, and if they do, the winner of the FA Cup doesn't get a European spot....if that happened, what is the point of the FA Cup going forward?

They will insist that their B and possibly even C teams be allowed into the EFL - thus eliminating another 6 or 12 teams to non League.

The possibility of changing the rules for relegation have been mentioned; what it one of the rule changes is that there is no relegation? Couldn't happen? Why not - those clubs would have total control of the rules of the Premier League. It is no coincidence that this is being driven by Man Utd and Liverpool, whose owners are already in US professional sports where there is no relegations....with no chance of every getting to the top division, what happens to sponsorship for EFL teams, or ownership? Who would want to sponsor a club, or own a club, where the chance foir sharing in the riches disappears?

The same with players; any decent young player from our Academy for example, would immediately look to move on to a Premier League club, who could pay a relative pittance to get that player on their books; that would damage the long term viability of the club.

What if - for example - the Kazakhstan National Government through their wealth fund wanted to invest in a football club, one already in the Premier League when this happens, such as Newcastle or Leeds? Well guess what? Those 6 teams would go "Hmmmm, that club with that wealth behind it could threaten us" so they block the possibility of that owner coming into the Premier League. That is one of their stipulations.....

Then there is the TV deal - this is where the real issue lies - the 6 clubs will stitch up the deal so they get the bulk of the money between them, and the rest of the PL get the crumbs. This would maintain their control over the game and destroy any chance of anyone doing a Leicester.

Eventually, with only 6 teams ever able to win anything, or go to Europe, with no FA Cup glory, with young players leaving for next to nothing, fans of smaller clubs will simply stop watching them, and teams will disappear.

Thats my logic.

I'd counter these are valid concerns, and any agreement needs to safeguard against future changes and abuse of power, most notably getting rid of the proposed 6 of 9 voting system.

But ultimately none of these concerns relate to the immediate proposals, which include solutions to real EFL issues around finances and sustainability. So whilst the package would need proper safeguards negotiated as part of it, we shouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater and kick the whole thing away.

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Re: Football - The Covid Years

by Mr Angry » 12 Oct 2020 16:34

I agree with you; if the EFL could negotiate with the PL and (to use a phrase from another subject) "cherry pick" the best bits whilst dumping the rest, that would be a brilliant outcome and my concerns for the medium/long term future of the game would be assuaged.

2 things however, suggest that this won't happen.

Firstly, I think it is likely that the PL will take the position that the EFL take everything offered, or they get nothing. They hold all the cards.

Secondly, I fear that Rick Parry, the Chairman of the EFL and a man in a position of immense influence, has a massive conflict of interest on this issue; in no way can he be thought of as someone who would be working in the best interests of the EFL in any negotiations with the PL.

So the question is this; if only this deal was on the table - as is with no changes - would you think it acceptable?

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Re: Football - The Covid Years

by WestYorksRoyal » 12 Oct 2020 17:09

Mr Angry I agree with you; if the EFL could negotiate with the PL and (to use a phrase from another subject) "cherry pick" the best bits whilst dumping the rest, that would be a brilliant outcome and my concerns for the medium/long term future of the game would be assuaged.

2 things however, suggest that this won't happen.

Firstly, I think it is likely that the PL will take the position that the EFL take everything offered, or they get nothing. They hold all the cards.

Secondly, I fear that Rick Parry, the Chairman of the EFL and a man in a position of immense influence, has a massive conflict of interest on this issue; in no way can he be thought of as someone who would be working in the best interests of the EFL in any negotiations with the PL.

So the question is this; if only this deal was on the table - as is with no changes - would you think it acceptable?

If this was the only offer, I'd be on the side of "no". I guess it depends how desperate clubs are for the cash though. It's been discussed between Man Utd and Liverpool for a few years, so probably no coincidence it's coming during a crisis. But I do think EFL clubs and the other 14 PL should at least look at it constructively, as there are good points in there.

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Re: Football - The Covid Years

by Kitsondinho » 13 Oct 2020 00:13

It is an awful deal. The bailout looks good on paper, but with the ability of the top 6 clubs to change the way the money is distributed on a whim, they’ll have changed the terms within 2 seasons. It is nothing more than a power grab by the richest clubs in the country. Far from saving the pyramid, it will kill it. Why is this deal being floated now? They had no interest in ‘saving’ the EFL two years ago.... I hope this goes the same way (and as quickly) as the ridiculous 39th game...Sadly it seems many EFL clubs are being blinded by the short term monetary salvation. It isn’t worth it.

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