SC hasn't a clue.

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Terminal Boardom
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Re: SC hasn't a clue.

by Terminal Boardom » 15 Apr 2009 22:15

Royal Rother
Agent Balti To say that Sidwell for us was over-rated, frankly, is bollocks. The fact that he hasn't been replaced adequately is proof that he, in the system we play is proof in itself.

Well that makes a lot of sense.

It's actually pretty simple - Sidwell was over-rated by some and under-rated by others. He was an important cog but no more so than several other players, and less so than some.

He turned in loads of extremely average performances in both 2005/6 and 2006/7 seasons, but because he left and the team's performances declined he is now viewed as the vital player upon whom we were completely reliant - frankly that is bollocks.


So what you are saying is that some mediocre performances were generally overlooked as the team was doing so well.

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Re: SC hasn't a clue.

by Royal Rother » 15 Apr 2009 22:37

Same as for everyone else. The team performs well and it will mask those not firing on all cylinders. I liked him a lot because of the effort and desire he showed (as well as the occasional outstanding display) but it is my recollection that there was no regular in that team who put in more below-par performances.

Because he left and performances dipped he has been picked up the tag as the most important cog of our wheel - I don't think that is right.

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Re: SC hasn't a clue.

by Millsy » 15 Apr 2009 23:25

Wood for the trees situation.

Step back and see the bleeding obvious, please.

Whether he has a clue or not, whether he is motivational or not, whether he makes good buys or not, whether he smiles or not, whether he does the windmill or not these are the facts:

Every other club

mediocre
--> in steps coppell -->
a quantum leap forward in terms of success

RFC

135 of rubbish
--> in steps coppell
CHAMPIONSHIP WINNERS WITH HIGHEST RECORD POINTS TOTAL IN ENGLISH FOOTBALL HISTORY
PREMIERSHIP
PREMIERSHIP AGAIN
CHAMPIONSHIP PLAYOFFS
[?premiership, ?good championship season again]

He might be the worst man manager, the worst transfer market dealer the worst motivator, the worst whatever, he might have absolutely no clue about why his team does so well... but as far as I'm concerned if he has that sort of effect I don't care how he manages it. It can be total luck, it can be his mummy telling what to do, it can be the breeze from his windmill, it can be the smell of his farts.... I just don't give a poo. This man causes quantum leaps of success consistently (such amazing leaps that other successes of his are seen as a failure compared to his own standards only). That's all that matters.

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Re: SC hasn't a clue.

by Royalee » 15 Apr 2009 23:29

Was finishing 2nd in '95 and playing superb football 'rubbish'? Or perhaps finishing 4th in the Championship the season before this supposed untouchable was appointed and looking a very good bet to reach the playoff final against a Sheffield United team tired from cup exploits we'd played off the park at Bramall Lane with some of the best football I've ever seen an away side play before Forster got injured and we had to change the entire dynamic of our team?

You really do show yourself up as a complete tool at times.

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Re: SC hasn't a clue.

by Focher » 15 Apr 2009 23:40

Cookie
Focher Steve Coppell - The greatest manager we have had in my 25 years watching Reading.

But......Whatever club he is at he will never last more than 3/4 seasons. His teams are made up of unknown grafters, if his team does well they either leave because the club isn't big enough (lets face it he will never be in charge of a big club), or they get too big for their boots, and he can't manage that type of player. Everything happening now was always on the cards, the same happened at Palace.

Time for a change after this season is out.







Dennis Wise?


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Re: SC hasn't a clue.

by Agent Balti » 16 Apr 2009 07:15

2 world wars, 1 world cup Wood for the trees situation.

Step back and see the bleeding obvious, please.

Whether he has a clue or not, whether he is motivational or not, whether he makes good buys or not, whether he smiles or not, whether he does the windmill or not these are the facts:

Every other club

mediocre
--> in steps coppell -->
a quantum leap forward in terms of success

RFC

135 of rubbish
--> in steps coppell
CHAMPIONSHIP WINNERS WITH HIGHEST RECORD POINTS TOTAL IN ENGLISH FOOTBALL HISTORY
PREMIERSHIP
PREMIERSHIP AGAIN
CHAMPIONSHIP PLAYOFFS
[?premiership, ?good championship season again]

He might be the worst man manager, the worst transfer market dealer the worst motivator, the worst whatever, he might have absolutely no clue about why his team does so well... but as far as I'm concerned if he has that sort of effect I don't care how he manages it. It can be total luck, it can be his mummy telling what to do, it can be the breeze from his windmill, it can be the smell of his farts.... I just don't give a poo. This man causes quantum leaps of success consistently (such amazing leaps that other successes of his are seen as a failure compared to his own standards only). That's all that matters.


I'll ask the question again, as nobody seems to want to answer it - at what point would you say 'enough is enough'? After a relegation? After a dismal performance during the season? (When to all concerned, we have the best squad by a mile and can play some attractive football.) When, despite all the above achievements (and personally speaking, getting promotion this season via the play-offs would feel rather fraudulent.) Coppell's tactics and use of players has been naive at best. At what point would you replace him? Never, by the sounds of it. I am not saying Coppell is just lucky, obviously he IS a good manager, but what I can't get my head around is this blind loyalty that because of 'this' and because of 'that', he's immune from any scrutiny. I believe that he and the coaching staff, have lost the respect of the players...and he's not 'managed' his way out of that one.

Although he'll leave in the close season anyway, so it's all moot. But still...
Last edited by Agent Balti on 16 Apr 2009 08:47, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: SC hasn't a clue.

by Einstein agogo » 16 Apr 2009 07:45

I haven't read everything here , but my thoughts are as follows

the team don't have any confidence at the moment... is that coppells fault???
I'm beginning to think it IS... He HAS a clue , he is good at what he does , BUT man management and motivation seem to be his shortcomings

ourpitch is crap the surface gets ruined as soon as winter comes ,cos of the rugby...it's time it was stopped.

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Re: SC hasn't a clue.

by Barry the bird boggler » 16 Apr 2009 08:15

Einstein agogo ourpitch is crap the surface gets ruined as soon as winter comes ,cos of the rugby...it's time it was stopped.


The mantra from the club that I've heard is that this season was always going to be iffy pitch-wise as its settling in and they could not really do any work on it in the close season due to the requirements of this settling in period.

In the summer general maintenance on the pitch can really get going and next season, theoretically, should see a much better pitch irrespective of whether there are 30 fat blokes rolling about on it every other week or not.

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Re: SC hasn't a clue.

by Agent Balti » 16 Apr 2009 08:49

Barry the bird boggler
Einstein agogo ourpitch is crap the surface gets ruined as soon as winter comes ,cos of the rugby...it's time it was stopped.


The mantra from the club that I've heard is that this season was always going to be iffy pitch-wise as its settling in and they could not really do any work on it in the close season due to the requirements of this settling in period.

In the summer general maintenance on the pitch can really get going and next season, theoretically, should see a much better pitch irrespective of whether there are 30 fat blokes rolling about on it every other week or not.


What you say is probably true, but isn't the Desso Grassmaster (don't ask me how I remember that...) supposed to be the dogs danglies in terms of football pitches? Is a pitch like ours to be expected?


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Re: SC hasn't a clue.

by Wycombe Royal » 16 Apr 2009 09:09

Royalee You really do show yourself up as a complete tool at times.

That comment could be written about you on so many different topics.

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Re: SC hasn't a clue.

by Hoop Blah » 16 Apr 2009 09:11

1871royals I think we did have a few realistic Sidwell replacements we missed out on.

Marvin Elliot moved to Bristol City for nothing that Summer. (Fair enough he hasnt proved it in the Prem but he would have done better than Cisse or Fae).
Palacios moved to Birmingham.
Robbie Savage or Boateng as a short term measure
Muamba moved to Birmingham after a loan spell we were coming off a 8th position in Prem we should have been a more attractive option
Etuhu moved to Sunderland
Olifijana playing for Wolves

I think all the above players were within our price range and we would have been an attractive option. Also they are all Ballwinners, I didn't think we needed Ben Watson for e.g as hes more creative. Additionally apart from Palaciois all had experience in English football which was a massive problem with Fae/Cisse etc.

Slightly off topic, SC has found us some gems in transfer market but he struggles to sign "good/established players." Coming off an 8th place finish in prem we should have got much better players in. For e.g. Stoke signing Beattie a players whos proven it in Prem, I couldnt imagine SC going for a player like him last season. Most clubs raid the Championship when they enter the Prem but we didnt do that.


Spot on there 1871.

There were options out there and we should've made an attempt to get someone in the January before Sidwell left to get them settled into the club and learn how they needed to fit in.

I think Elliot was a pretty obvious like for like replacement and one well worth the gamble on at the time. He couldn't have been worse than Fae or Cisse were at the time that's for sure!

As for Sidwell being over/under-rated I agree with RR to an extent. For me Sidwell was a key figure in the side (both physically and mentally) and removing him from the squad was a significant factor in our downfall but he wasn't, and still isn't that great a player, but he was just the type of player we needed to compliment the other elements of the squad. Not replacing him, losing Little at the same time, and the general attitude of 'we've made it' were the reasons for our relegation.

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Re: SC hasn't a clue.

by papereyes » 16 Apr 2009 09:16

Royalee Was finishing 2nd in '95 and playing superb football 'rubbish'? Or perhaps finishing 4th in the Championship the season before this supposed untouchable was appointed and looking a very good bet to reach the playoff final against a Sheffield United team tired from cup exploits we'd played off the park at Bramall Lane with some of the best football I've ever seen an away side play before Forster got injured and we had to change the entire dynamic of our team?



Have to say Royalee has a very valid point here.

I don't think its too much of a push to say that the club was geared towards getting into the top flight when we were still in the third tier. Its not 135 years of rubbish and then Coppell. Its 120-130 years of rubbish and then they realised, at some point in the early 90s, that we didn't have to be rubbish anymore.

Coppell was the man who did it. I'd happily stand up and say that I think Pardew would have done it had he not been poached by West Ham. The person who replaces Coppell will almost certainly do it.

I'll ask the question again, as nobody seems to want to answer it - at what point would you say 'enough is enough'? After a relegation? After a dismal performance during the season? (When to all concerned, we have the best squad by a mile and can play some attractive football.) When, despite all the above achievements (and personally speaking, getting promotion this season via the play-offs would feel rather fraudulent.) Coppell's tactics and use of players has been naive at best. At what point would you replace him? Never, by the sounds of it. I am not saying Coppell is just lucky, obviously he IS a good manager, but what I can't get my head around is this blind loyalty that because of 'this' and because of 'that', he's immune from any scrutiny. I believe that he and the coaching staff, have lost the respect of the players...and he's not 'managed' his way out of that one.


And again.

IMO, he was always going to leave this summer and because we all know that, and the players know that, that's why this season is grinding to a halt.

As for Sidwell being over/under-rated I agree with RR to an extent. For me Sidwell was a key figure in the side (both physically and mentally) and removing him from the squad was a significant factor in our downfall but he wasn't, and still isn't that great a player, but he was just the type of player we needed to compliment the other elements of the squad. Not replacing him, losing Little at the same time, and the general attitude of 'we've made it' were the reasons for our relegation.


Even if he was playing poorly, he added something to the team in, I dunno, drive and character.

Written this a thousand times, but had we kept our wing play, we'd have missed him less. But we essentially lostour entire right wing in that second season and our left wing was never as wide as it could have been. So it relied on a strong midfield more but we didn't have that either. Plan A goes wrong, no plan B.

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Re: SC hasn't a clue.

by Hoop Blah » 16 Apr 2009 09:24

papereyes Coppell was the man who did it. I'd happily stand up and say that I think Pardew would have done it had he not been poached by West Ham. The person who replaces Coppell will almost certainly do it.
....

And again.

IMO, he was always going to leave this summer and because we all know that, and the players know that, that's why this season is grinding to a halt.



Totally agree, it's another reason I think he should've gone last season. Even Fergie couldn't keep the Unites players focused and performing at their best when they knew we was going to be off at the end of whatever season it was a while back.

Once he wasn't sure he either wanted to be here or should be here he should've walked and let a new man come in and do the rebuilding.


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Re: SC hasn't a clue.

by Royal Rother » 16 Apr 2009 09:35

papereyes Coppell was the man who did it. I'd happily stand up and say that I think Pardew would have done it had he not been poached by West Ham. The person who replaces Coppell will almost certainly do it.


Pardew might well have taken us up to the top tier but I doubt he would have won 2 Manager of the Year Awards along the way.

(Glad you think the next manager will almost certainly take us up again - that's a touch extravagant for you!) :wink:

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Re: SC hasn't a clue.

by Millsy » 16 Apr 2009 10:06

Royalee Was finishing 2nd in '95 and playing superb football 'rubbish'? Or perhaps finishing 4th in the Championship the season before this supposed untouchable was appointed and looking a very good bet to reach the playoff final against a Sheffield United team tired from cup exploits we'd played off the park at Bramall Lane with some of the best football I've ever seen an away side play before Forster got injured and we had to change the entire dynamic of our team?

You really do show yourself up as a complete tool at times.


:lol:

So basically our deepest darkest and worst times under Coppell are comparable to the glory highlights of pre-Coppell? :lol:

Of course there were random spurts of good amongst the rubbish (exceptions to every rule) but to suggest that these flashes in the pan are in any way even vaguely comparable to the phenomenal sustained relative success we're still enjoying under Coppell is quite frankly laughable.

Without wanting to sink to the level of name-calling insult of your post I'll politely point out that whilst you have and do come up with absolute gems of posts (that I've praised) your view on Coppell has been embarrassing at best and not worthy of comment.

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Re: SC hasn't a clue.

by bobby m's syrup » 16 Apr 2009 10:08

No one can question SC's positive achievements at the club. That said, isn't it the job of a manager to motivate and inspire and his squad? Despite departures and some disastrous signings, we still have more than the the basis of a successful Championship side, (although probably not for much longer). Why then, can he not get them to reach at least a reasonable percentage of their potential?

boy1985

Re: SC hasn't a clue.

by boy1985 » 16 Apr 2009 10:17

bobby m's syrup No one can question SC's positive achievements at the club. That said, isn't it the job of a manager to motivate and inspire and his squad? Despite departures and some disastrous signings, we still have more than the the basis of a successful Championship side, (although probably not for much longer). Why then, can he not get them to reach at least a reasonable percentage of their potential?


Because there are 4 better teams than us this year.

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Re: SC hasn't a clue.

by brendywendy » 16 Apr 2009 10:17

2 world wars, 1 world cup Wood for the trees situation.

Step back and see the bleeding obvious, please.

Whether he has a clue or not, whether he is motivational or not, whether he makes good buys or not, whether he smiles or not, whether he does the windmill or not these are the facts:

Every other club

mediocre
--> in steps coppell -->
a quantum leap forward in terms of success

RFC

135 of rubbish
--> in steps coppell
CHAMPIONSHIP WINNERS WITH HIGHEST RECORD POINTS TOTAL IN ENGLISH FOOTBALL HISTORY
PREMIERSHIP
PREMIERSHIP AGAIN
CHAMPIONSHIP PLAYOFFS
[?premiership, ?good championship season again]

He might be the worst man manager, the worst transfer market dealer the worst motivator, the worst whatever, he might have absolutely no clue about why his team does so well... but as far as I'm concerned if he has that sort of effect I don't care how he manages it. It can be total luck, it can be his mummy telling what to do, it can be the breeze from his windmill, it can be the smell of his farts.... I just don't give a poo. This man causes quantum leaps of success consistently (such amazing leaps that other successes of his are seen as a failure compared to his own standards only). That's all that matters.



that post is a thing of beauty

i love you 2WWA1WC

:lol:

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Re: SC hasn't a clue.

by Royal Lady » 16 Apr 2009 10:21

The main problem seems to stem from some of the players appearing to have completely switched off. They don't care basically. Some of them think they're going to walk into a Premiership team next year - but you'd have thought the likes of Sidwell, Shorey, Kitson and Little would have shown them how fickle a playing career at the top level can be. Copps should have dropped some of our big headed egotistical players to show them they are not indispensable, earlier on in the season. The trouble is he appears to be too nice in that respect.

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Re: SC hasn't a clue.

by Millsy » 16 Apr 2009 10:23

Agent Balti
2 world wars, 1 world cup Wood for the trees situation.

Step back and see the bleeding obvious, please.

Whether he has a clue or not, whether he is motivational or not, whether he makes good buys or not, whether he smiles or not, whether he does the windmill or not these are the facts:

Every other club

mediocre
--> in steps coppell -->
a quantum leap forward in terms of success

RFC

135 of rubbish
--> in steps coppell
CHAMPIONSHIP WINNERS WITH HIGHEST RECORD POINTS TOTAL IN ENGLISH FOOTBALL HISTORY
PREMIERSHIP
PREMIERSHIP AGAIN
CHAMPIONSHIP PLAYOFFS
[?premiership, ?good championship season again]

He might be the worst man manager, the worst transfer market dealer the worst motivator, the worst whatever, he might have absolutely no clue about why his team does so well... but as far as I'm concerned if he has that sort of effect I don't care how he manages it. It can be total luck, it can be his mummy telling what to do, it can be the breeze from his windmill, it can be the smell of his farts.... I just don't give a poo. This man causes quantum leaps of success consistently (such amazing leaps that other successes of his are seen as a failure compared to his own standards only). That's all that matters.


I'll ask the question again, as nobody seems to want to answer it - at what point would you say 'enough is enough'?


Easy. When we're significantly worse off than before he joined. At the moment we're back "down" to pretty much best we've ever been before he joined.

Playing badly compared to the standards HE set is not a valid reason. Being relegated from the success HE brought us is not a valid reason. Being currently a playoff contender in the Championship, and millions of pounds stronger than we were before we joined is at worst equal to the "dizzy heights" we achieved before. There will always be peaks and troughs in anyone's tenure. But when the troughs of today are comparable to the peaks of yesteryear this just shows how incredible he's been. If he drops us next season into a relegation battle from Champ-->League One then will talk of him leaving be anywhere close to valid. Being a strong Championship side in the playoffs (albeit with current confidence issues) is not even the faintest of reasons to consider changing management. The mind boggles at where such thinking comes from. Surely this isn't a difficult concept!????

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