by Hound » 07 Oct 2019 21:32
by Snowflake Royal » 07 Oct 2019 21:33
ZipSnowflake RoyalZip
Ian why not take a break too hun. You don’t seem to realise your posts are just as aggressive. Clement was given until December by which time a decision had to be made with the January window just around the corner. The same applies with Gomes.
I'm being perfectly polite and reasonable zip. I'm asking reasonable questions and making backing up my points with reasoning and examples.
You're the one mistaking and twisting what I'm saying, and making blank assertions.
That really is a bit rich. leon picked you up yesterday for something that you said on this subject. You followed it up with highly confusing and statistically incorrect posts which other posters picked up on.
Anyway I’m done with you on this subject.
Snowflake RoyalZipSnowflake Royal I'm being perfectly polite and reasonable zip. I'm asking reasonable questions and making backing up my points with reasoning and examples.
You're the one mistaking and twisting what I'm saying, and making blank assertions.
That really is a bit rich. leon picked you up yesterday for something that you said on this subject. You followed it up with highly confusing and statistically incorrect posts which other posters picked up on.
Anyway I’m done with you on this subject.
You mean the one I had a perfectly reasonable conversation about, and immediately acknowledged and accepted my error, which didn't change the substance of the point anyway?
by WoodleyRoyal » 07 Oct 2019 21:37
by leon » 07 Oct 2019 21:40
WoodleyRoyal Yep zip and spizz always throw their toys out the pram when people don’t agree with them.
by Snowflake Royal » 07 Oct 2019 21:40
WoodleyRoyal Yep zip and spizz always throw their toys out the pram when people don’t agree with them.
by Zip » 07 Oct 2019 21:42
Old Man AndrewsSnowflake RoyalZip
That really is a bit rich. leon picked you up yesterday for something that you said on this subject. You followed it up with highly confusing and statistically incorrect posts which other posters picked up on.
Anyway I’m done with you on this subject.
You mean the one I had a perfectly reasonable conversation about, and immediately acknowledged and accepted my error, which didn't change the substance of the point anyway?
To be fair to Ian for the amount of bollocks he talks he isn't unreasonable. Not sure why you're taking it so badly Zip, just a difference of opinion that you were both debating reasonably well.
by leon » 07 Oct 2019 21:43
by Snowflake Royal » 07 Oct 2019 21:46
leon Anyway, ladies.
Gomes out?
by WoodleyRoyal » 07 Oct 2019 21:47
leon Anyway, ladies.
Gomes out?
by Rax » 07 Oct 2019 21:50
by Crowbar6753 » 07 Oct 2019 21:52
by windermereROYAL » 07 Oct 2019 22:07
by Millsy » 07 Oct 2019 22:14
Snowflake RoyalElm Park Kid I'm assuming that no one was calling for Gomes to be sacked after we beat Huddersfield 2-0 away? So we're talking about a change of mind after 6 matches . . . . 6 matches . . . which include two away games against teams currently in the top six (one of which we drew).
Look - I thought that hiring the guy was a big mistake in the first place. And if this is just biting the bullet and correcting that mistake then fair enough. But I just completely reject that idea that you can judge any manager that is trying to get a load of new players working together on the basis of two months.
I mean - results in six games can be dependent on luck as much as anything. What if we'd got a lucky penalty or red card in a couple of the games and won? Would you then all be calling for him to stay? There's a reason why managers should be judged over seasons and not matches.
Interesting point. No, after 5 games when our record was W2, D1, L2, and we were still in a new season high with exciting signings and someone who had helped bring a feel good factor back and kept us up, funnily enough no one thought Gomes should be sacked.
However, the situation has changed. Since then we've lost five games, with the exact same problems at fault in all of them, same as the ones we lost at the start of the season.
We were poor against Wednesday. We were poor against Hull, but threw it all at them at the end, still couldn't save the game
We had a good run of three results, but were battered by West Brom.
We were poor against Charlton.
We were poor against Middlesbrough, but threw it all at them at the end, still couldn't save the game.
We were poor against Blackburn
We were poor against Swansea, but threw it all at them at the end and snuck a late draw.
Were atrocious against Fulham and got battered.
We were poor against Bristol, were given the entire second half to go at them and couldn't save the game.
The pattern is the same. We start slowly. We are open on the flanks because of our tactics. Our midfield is wide open and our defence doesn't mark. We concede an early goal and never look like turning it around. This is the same no matter the XI or formation and Gomes has tried lots of different ones.
On top of that, Gomes finished last season with 1 win in 7. On top of that his record prior to us is poor. He's never stayed anywhere for two years. He's never built a team. He's never taken a club to the next level.
The positives about Gomes were the feel good factor and the loanees. Both have for the most part gone. It's reasonable to review the situation at this point.
I don't buy the new players or no time to plan or prepare arguments.
You plan for what you have and what you want. The signings should be to a plan. I wouldn't expect us to be doing this badly if we hadn't been able to splurge millions at the end of the window.
I've said this before, but I'll repeat it here. Two of the new signings are not new. They were here last season. Morrison stepped up and looked good immediately. Adam isn't playing and clearly wasn't intended to play much. Cabral has stepped in and been fine. Virginia was a stupid awful signing and has been replaced with Cabral.
That leaves Joao - a player with a suspect reputation who has never established himself fully anywhere. If we're banking on him coming good to save our season that's desperate.
Puscas - a young and inexperienced player.
Pele.
That's three players, arguably two of whom it's unreasonable to rely heavily on coming good at any stage this season.
And I'll say the problem isn't player performance. It's tactics, shape, pressing, marking, selection. These are all the manager and coaching team's responsibility.
If we were doing this badly because we had a lot of injuries, or hadn't been able to make signings, I'd be more sympathetic.
But there's no excuse.
As it is, I'd give Gomes a few more games, albeit with no expectation of improvement.
BUT, not if Hughton, who is a far superior manager in every way, is available, interested and potentially missable if we don't act now.
by WoodleyRoyal » 07 Oct 2019 22:17
2 world wars, 1 world cupSnowflake RoyalElm Park Kid I'm assuming that no one was calling for Gomes to be sacked after we beat Huddersfield 2-0 away? So we're talking about a change of mind after 6 matches . . . . 6 matches . . . which include two away games against teams currently in the top six (one of which we drew).
Look - I thought that hiring the guy was a big mistake in the first place. And if this is just biting the bullet and correcting that mistake then fair enough. But I just completely reject that idea that you can judge any manager that is trying to get a load of new players working together on the basis of two months.
I mean - results in six games can be dependent on luck as much as anything. What if we'd got a lucky penalty or red card in a couple of the games and won? Would you then all be calling for him to stay? There's a reason why managers should be judged over seasons and not matches.
Interesting point. No, after 5 games when our record was W2, D1, L2, and we were still in a new season high with exciting signings and someone who had helped bring a feel good factor back and kept us up, funnily enough no one thought Gomes should be sacked.
However, the situation has changed. Since then we've lost five games, with the exact same problems at fault in all of them, same as the ones we lost at the start of the season.
We were poor against Wednesday. We were poor against Hull, but threw it all at them at the end, still couldn't save the game
We had a good run of three results, but were battered by West Brom.
We were poor against Charlton.
We were poor against Middlesbrough, but threw it all at them at the end, still couldn't save the game.
We were poor against Blackburn
We were poor against Swansea, but threw it all at them at the end and snuck a late draw.
Were atrocious against Fulham and got battered.
We were poor against Bristol, were given the entire second half to go at them and couldn't save the game.
The pattern is the same. We start slowly. We are open on the flanks because of our tactics. Our midfield is wide open and our defence doesn't mark. We concede an early goal and never look like turning it around. This is the same no matter the XI or formation and Gomes has tried lots of different ones.
On top of that, Gomes finished last season with 1 win in 7. On top of that his record prior to us is poor. He's never stayed anywhere for two years. He's never built a team. He's never taken a club to the next level.
The positives about Gomes were the feel good factor and the loanees. Both have for the most part gone. It's reasonable to review the situation at this point.
I don't buy the new players or no time to plan or prepare arguments.
You plan for what you have and what you want. The signings should be to a plan. I wouldn't expect us to be doing this badly if we hadn't been able to splurge millions at the end of the window.
I've said this before, but I'll repeat it here. Two of the new signings are not new. They were here last season. Morrison stepped up and looked good immediately. Adam isn't playing and clearly wasn't intended to play much. Cabral has stepped in and been fine. Virginia was a stupid awful signing and has been replaced with Cabral.
That leaves Joao - a player with a suspect reputation who has never established himself fully anywhere. If we're banking on him coming good to save our season that's desperate.
Puscas - a young and inexperienced player.
Pele.
That's three players, arguably two of whom it's unreasonable to rely heavily on coming good at any stage this season.
And I'll say the problem isn't player performance. It's tactics, shape, pressing, marking, selection. These are all the manager and coaching team's responsibility.
If we were doing this badly because we had a lot of injuries, or hadn't been able to make signings, I'd be more sympathetic.
But there's no excuse.
As it is, I'd give Gomes a few more games, albeit with no expectation of improvement.
BUT, not if Hughton, who is a far superior manager in every way, is available, interested and potentially missable if we don't act now.
DISCLAIMER: I'm genuinely on the fence and don't know what to think but for the sake of good discussion and trying to sort it out in my head so will play a bit of devil's advocate. I'd only do the opposite if someone was sticking up for Gomes.
Your take on the games Ian is a prime example of bending the facts to support your viewpoint rather than a fair look in my opinion.
If I could be bothered I could easily go through the games and paint a different picture. Finding our feet, bold and brilliant decision to replace Virginia, finally got there and everything clicked, a week of sublime performances... key injury to Miazga and trying to rotate players and players going off form. Despite that still some great performances/ close defeats. Phenomenal away draw against the league leaders. Fulham game was against 10 men etc etc etc.. Clearly signs of a great team that just needs to find rhythm.
We DO have a bunch of new players there is no hiding from that no matter how you paint it.
Rafa - yes might have slotted in (as in knows where he is meant to play) but how long does it take to organise a defence? Evidently as long as it's taking now as it's still not sorted and we know the keeper-CB relationship is an extremely important one.
Morrison - hit the ground running, yes, in terms of individual performanes, but that's not the worry with new players is it? Clearly as above we have a huge defensive crisis at the moment. Individually good performances dont' count for much when we are in trouble as a unit - again this needs TIME. And anyway has he been all that good? Yes in our wonder week but since then he's been pretty meh as has the whole defensive unit. And why not give Gomes the credit if he has been good?
Miazga and Ejaria - not new I'll give you that. But where were they in the close season and preseason? Were we ever sure they'd come back? Having played a few games last season and then leaving with no idea if they'd return and then returning late in the day doesn't mean they are old established players. Still need work.
Adam - yes not playing.. but new enough to waste a few games with to check him out.
Virginia - as above he's finally been kicked out the starting 11 but it was a mini-crisis that Gomes had to sort out and waste vital games and points doing so.
Which leaves Joao, Puscas Pele as you say. Even if these are the only new players that's still almost 30% of the team! And in key central positions (we're not talking about a winger who will drift in and out of games) which the whole team is built around.
On top of that we also had to bring the likes of Richards up to speed, so in effect a new player. Awful in defence for the first few games but Gomes has had to train him up and get the best out of him.
There's no way really of hiding from the fact that Gomes has had enough squad disruption and new talent to develop to have quite a tough time, compared to a manager with a settled squad who gets one or two key signings in the early transfer window with the whole of the preseason to get them to integrate.
Tactics etc - I can't knock your comments. Sorry Gomes. Unless as we've discussed we've just got a shit coaching team, but then again Gomes may well be responsible for that.
The way I see it the most valid arguments for and against are:
FOR: great motivator, kept us up, makes bold decisions well (booting out dead wood, replacing Virginia urgently), games generally quite close when defeated with some good spells, a mammoth task of trying to integrate many new players in a short amount of time etc
AGAINST: questionable tactics, selection, organisational and coaching ability with an inconsistent haphazard approach thus underachieving with very good players.
Overall I agree - "I'd give Gomes a few more games,"
by Millsy » 07 Oct 2019 22:18
Old Man Andrews My sources are telling me he has been sacked.
by Millsy » 07 Oct 2019 22:19
WoodleyRoyal2 world wars, 1 world cupSnowflake Royal Interesting point. No, after 5 games when our record was W2, D1, L2, and we were still in a new season high with exciting signings and someone who had helped bring a feel good factor back and kept us up, funnily enough no one thought Gomes should be sacked.
However, the situation has changed. Since then we've lost five games, with the exact same problems at fault in all of them, same as the ones we lost at the start of the season.
We were poor against Wednesday. We were poor against Hull, but threw it all at them at the end, still couldn't save the game
We had a good run of three results, but were battered by West Brom.
We were poor against Charlton.
We were poor against Middlesbrough, but threw it all at them at the end, still couldn't save the game.
We were poor against Blackburn
We were poor against Swansea, but threw it all at them at the end and snuck a late draw.
Were atrocious against Fulham and got battered.
We were poor against Bristol, were given the entire second half to go at them and couldn't save the game.
The pattern is the same. We start slowly. We are open on the flanks because of our tactics. Our midfield is wide open and our defence doesn't mark. We concede an early goal and never look like turning it around. This is the same no matter the XI or formation and Gomes has tried lots of different ones.
On top of that, Gomes finished last season with 1 win in 7. On top of that his record prior to us is poor. He's never stayed anywhere for two years. He's never built a team. He's never taken a club to the next level.
The positives about Gomes were the feel good factor and the loanees. Both have for the most part gone. It's reasonable to review the situation at this point.
I don't buy the new players or no time to plan or prepare arguments.
You plan for what you have and what you want. The signings should be to a plan. I wouldn't expect us to be doing this badly if we hadn't been able to splurge millions at the end of the window.
I've said this before, but I'll repeat it here. Two of the new signings are not new. They were here last season. Morrison stepped up and looked good immediately. Adam isn't playing and clearly wasn't intended to play much. Cabral has stepped in and been fine. Virginia was a stupid awful signing and has been replaced with Cabral.
That leaves Joao - a player with a suspect reputation who has never established himself fully anywhere. If we're banking on him coming good to save our season that's desperate.
Puscas - a young and inexperienced player.
Pele.
That's three players, arguably two of whom it's unreasonable to rely heavily on coming good at any stage this season.
And I'll say the problem isn't player performance. It's tactics, shape, pressing, marking, selection. These are all the manager and coaching team's responsibility.
If we were doing this badly because we had a lot of injuries, or hadn't been able to make signings, I'd be more sympathetic.
But there's no excuse.
As it is, I'd give Gomes a few more games, albeit with no expectation of improvement.
BUT, not if Hughton, who is a far superior manager in every way, is available, interested and potentially missable if we don't act now.
DISCLAIMER: I'm genuinely on the fence and don't know what to think but for the sake of good discussion and trying to sort it out in my head so will play a bit of devil's advocate. I'd only do the opposite if someone was sticking up for Gomes.
Your take on the games Ian is a prime example of bending the facts to support your viewpoint rather than a fair look in my opinion.
If I could be bothered I could easily go through the games and paint a different picture. Finding our feet, bold and brilliant decision to replace Virginia, finally got there and everything clicked, a week of sublime performances... key injury to Miazga and trying to rotate players and players going off form. Despite that still some great performances/ close defeats. Phenomenal away draw against the league leaders. Fulham game was against 10 men etc etc etc.. Clearly signs of a great team that just needs to find rhythm.
We DO have a bunch of new players there is no hiding from that no matter how you paint it.
Rafa - yes might have slotted in (as in knows where he is meant to play) but how long does it take to organise a defence? Evidently as long as it's taking now as it's still not sorted and we know the keeper-CB relationship is an extremely important one.
Morrison - hit the ground running, yes, in terms of individual performanes, but that's not the worry with new players is it? Clearly as above we have a huge defensive crisis at the moment. Individually good performances dont' count for much when we are in trouble as a unit - again this needs TIME. And anyway has he been all that good? Yes in our wonder week but since then he's been pretty meh as has the whole defensive unit. And why not give Gomes the credit if he has been good?
Miazga and Ejaria - not new I'll give you that. But where were they in the close season and preseason? Were we ever sure they'd come back? Having played a few games last season and then leaving with no idea if they'd return and then returning late in the day doesn't mean they are old established players. Still need work.
Adam - yes not playing.. but new enough to waste a few games with to check him out.
Virginia - as above he's finally been kicked out the starting 11 but it was a mini-crisis that Gomes had to sort out and waste vital games and points doing so.
Which leaves Joao, Puscas Pele as you say. Even if these are the only new players that's still almost 30% of the team! And in key central positions (we're not talking about a winger who will drift in and out of games) which the whole team is built around.
On top of that we also had to bring the likes of Richards up to speed, so in effect a new player. Awful in defence for the first few games but Gomes has had to train him up and get the best out of him.
There's no way really of hiding from the fact that Gomes has had enough squad disruption and new talent to develop to have quite a tough time, compared to a manager with a settled squad who gets one or two key signings in the early transfer window with the whole of the preseason to get them to integrate.
Tactics etc - I can't knock your comments. Sorry Gomes. Unless as we've discussed we've just got a shit coaching team, but then again Gomes may well be responsible for that.
The way I see it the most valid arguments for and against are:
FOR: great motivator, kept us up, makes bold decisions well (booting out dead wood, replacing Virginia urgently), games generally quite close when defeated with some good spells, a mammoth task of trying to integrate many new players in a short amount of time etc
AGAINST: questionable tactics, selection, organisational and coaching ability with an inconsistent haphazard approach thus underachieving with very good players.
Overall I agree - "I'd give Gomes a few more games,"
TL;DR can you summarise?
2 world wars, 1 world cupOld Man Andrews My sources are telling me he has been sacked.
Fo' real?
by Millsy » 07 Oct 2019 22:24
Old Man Andrews2 world wars, 1 world cupOld Man Andrews My sources are telling me he has been sacked.
Fo' real?
Yes but that doesn't mean its true. Going to be announced tomorrow morning apparently but take it with a pinch of salt for now.
by URZZZZ » 07 Oct 2019 23:29
2 world wars, 1 world cupSnowflake RoyalElm Park Kid I'm assuming that no one was calling for Gomes to be sacked after we beat Huddersfield 2-0 away? So we're talking about a change of mind after 6 matches . . . . 6 matches . . . which include two away games against teams currently in the top six (one of which we drew).
Look - I thought that hiring the guy was a big mistake in the first place. And if this is just biting the bullet and correcting that mistake then fair enough. But I just completely reject that idea that you can judge any manager that is trying to get a load of new players working together on the basis of two months.
I mean - results in six games can be dependent on luck as much as anything. What if we'd got a lucky penalty or red card in a couple of the games and won? Would you then all be calling for him to stay? There's a reason why managers should be judged over seasons and not matches.
Interesting point. No, after 5 games when our record was W2, D1, L2, and we were still in a new season high with exciting signings and someone who had helped bring a feel good factor back and kept us up, funnily enough no one thought Gomes should be sacked.
However, the situation has changed. Since then we've lost five games, with the exact same problems at fault in all of them, same as the ones we lost at the start of the season.
We were poor against Wednesday. We were poor against Hull, but threw it all at them at the end, still couldn't save the game
We had a good run of three results, but were battered by West Brom.
We were poor against Charlton.
We were poor against Middlesbrough, but threw it all at them at the end, still couldn't save the game.
We were poor against Blackburn
We were poor against Swansea, but threw it all at them at the end and snuck a late draw.
Were atrocious against Fulham and got battered.
We were poor against Bristol, were given the entire second half to go at them and couldn't save the game.
The pattern is the same. We start slowly. We are open on the flanks because of our tactics. Our midfield is wide open and our defence doesn't mark. We concede an early goal and never look like turning it around. This is the same no matter the XI or formation and Gomes has tried lots of different ones.
On top of that, Gomes finished last season with 1 win in 7. On top of that his record prior to us is poor. He's never stayed anywhere for two years. He's never built a team. He's never taken a club to the next level.
The positives about Gomes were the feel good factor and the loanees. Both have for the most part gone. It's reasonable to review the situation at this point.
I don't buy the new players or no time to plan or prepare arguments.
You plan for what you have and what you want. The signings should be to a plan. I wouldn't expect us to be doing this badly if we hadn't been able to splurge millions at the end of the window.
I've said this before, but I'll repeat it here. Two of the new signings are not new. They were here last season. Morrison stepped up and looked good immediately. Adam isn't playing and clearly wasn't intended to play much. Cabral has stepped in and been fine. Virginia was a stupid awful signing and has been replaced with Cabral.
That leaves Joao - a player with a suspect reputation who has never established himself fully anywhere. If we're banking on him coming good to save our season that's desperate.
Puscas - a young and inexperienced player.
Pele.
That's three players, arguably two of whom it's unreasonable to rely heavily on coming good at any stage this season.
And I'll say the problem isn't player performance. It's tactics, shape, pressing, marking, selection. These are all the manager and coaching team's responsibility.
If we were doing this badly because we had a lot of injuries, or hadn't been able to make signings, I'd be more sympathetic.
But there's no excuse.
As it is, I'd give Gomes a few more games, albeit with no expectation of improvement.
BUT, not if Hughton, who is a far superior manager in every way, is available, interested and potentially missable if we don't act now.
DISCLAIMER: I'm genuinely on the fence and don't know what to think but for the sake of good discussion and trying to sort it out in my head so will play a bit of devil's advocate. I'd only do the opposite if someone was sticking up for Gomes.
Your take on the games Ian is a prime example of bending the facts to support your viewpoint rather than a fair look in my opinion.
If I could be bothered I could easily go through the games and paint a different picture. Finding our feet, bold and brilliant decision to replace Virginia, finally got there and everything clicked, a week of sublime performances... key injury to Miazga and trying to rotate players and players going off form. Despite that still some great performances/ close defeats. Phenomenal away draw against the league leaders. Fulham game was against 10 men etc etc etc.. Clearly signs of a great team that just needs to find rhythm.
We DO have a bunch of new players there is no hiding from that no matter how you paint it.
Rafa - yes might have slotted in (as in knows where he is meant to play) but how long does it take to organise a defence? Evidently as long as it's taking now as it's still not sorted and we know the keeper-CB relationship is an extremely important one.
Morrison - hit the ground running, yes, in terms of individual performanes, but that's not the worry with new players is it? Clearly as above we have a huge defensive crisis at the moment. Individually good performances dont' count for much when we are in trouble as a unit - again this needs TIME. And anyway has he been all that good? Yes in our wonder week but since then he's been pretty meh as has the whole defensive unit. And why not give Gomes the credit if he has been good?
Miazga and Ejaria - not new I'll give you that. But where were they in the close season and preseason? Were we ever sure they'd come back? Having played a few games last season and then leaving with no idea if they'd return and then returning late in the day doesn't mean they are old established players. Still need work.
Adam - yes not playing.. but new enough to waste a few games with to check him out.
Virginia - as above he's finally been kicked out the starting 11 but it was a mini-crisis that Gomes had to sort out and waste vital games and points doing so.
Which leaves Joao, Puscas Pele as you say. Even if these are the only new players that's still almost 30% of the team! And in key central positions (we're not talking about a winger who will drift in and out of games) which the whole team is built around.
On top of that we also had to bring the likes of Richards up to speed, so in effect a new player. Awful in defence for the first few games but Gomes has had to train him up and get the best out of him.
There's no way really of hiding from the fact that Gomes has had enough squad disruption and new talent to develop to have quite a tough time, compared to a manager with a settled squad who gets one or two key signings in the early transfer window with the whole of the preseason to get them to integrate.
Tactics etc - I can't knock your comments. Sorry Gomes. Unless as we've discussed we've just got a shit coaching team, but then again Gomes may well be responsible for that.
The way I see it the most valid arguments for and against are:
FOR: great motivator, kept us up, makes bold decisions well (booting out dead wood, replacing Virginia urgently), games generally quite close when defeated with some good spells, a mammoth task of trying to integrate many new players in a short amount of time etc
AGAINST: questionable tactics, selection, organisational and coaching ability with an inconsistent haphazard approach thus underachieving with very good players.
Overall I agree - "I'd give Gomes a few more games,"
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