MATCHWATCH : Millwall (a) sponsored by Ricky Newman

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Re: MATCHWATCH : Millwall (a) sponsored by Ricky Newman

by Zip » 27 Nov 2020 18:52

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Hound Speedy wingers is up there with not playing out from the back as the two cliches that would supposedly make us much better whilst likely doing nothing of the sort

We’ve had speedy Wingers recently whilst playing some of the most turgid football on record. Plus Meite and Ovie aren’t exactly slow, or is Richards/Yiadom/Esteves on the overlap


I think there’s a general trend that the most successful teams now play with width

Yiadom and Richards offer some width but not enough. Meite stays fairly wide I guess but he’s not the sort to go out wide and cross it in (and understandably, it’s not his game)

Besides, which speedy wingers have we had recently who’s played regularly? Might just be me but can’t think of a single one other than Barrow


Barrow the regular when we played some awful football. But then McCleary was still quick in Stam S1. Timbe also appeared and made little difference. Meite is quick and has played left and right wing. Richards played there last year at times and is also quick. Can never quite work out if Aluko is speedy or not, but he is meant to be.


Barrow was crucial to us staying in the division. Without his goals and assists we were going down.
Successful Reading sides at this level have played with quality wingers. Kebe and McAnuff and Little and Convey.
We just haven’t had many decent wingers at the club in recent years. That doesn’t mean we should not have wingers at the club.

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Re: MATCHWATCH : Millwall (a) sponsored by Ricky Newman

by Crowbar6753 » 27 Nov 2020 20:09

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Snowflake Royal S'cuz we don't use wingers, innit.

There's a fair bit of disagreement about whether Ejaria is best wide left or central.

We are short on players who fit the left hand roll well, but with Ejaria, Olise, Baldock, Richards and Semedo we've got options.

And with Meite, Olise, Yiadom and Esteves, it'd be a bit pointless signing a RWinger.

Personally I think Swift, Ejaria, Olise and Semedo are all more central players and the first three are probably too many, worth switching one for a proper left forward, ideally a bit pacey and strong. But over the years we've seen they're hard to find. Boye.... yeesh.

oxf*rd it. Chuck Puscas out there. Basically play a 3 striker formation with Meite and him as Inside forwards, cutting in on alternating attacks. Leave the wide play to Richards and Whoever that weeks RB is, with Rinomhota and Laurent covering .

That leaves Olise, Joao and whichever of Laurinomhota isn't covering to stay central. 1 pivot, 1 AM and 1 forward. Sorted.

Edit: this was said in jest but I'm now considering it. Curse Football Manager.

------------------Rafael
Yiadom--Morro--Moore--Richards
------Rinomhota---Laurent
Meite-----------Olise------------Puscas
--------------------Joao

Gives us a strong bench too with Ejaria, Esteves, Swift and Semedo all capable of coming on and adding something different..


I'm for giving this a go, we need to take the game when playing at home, especially when the crowds slowly start appearing back at games. I may be old school, but nothing got the fans going more in the old South Bank than Gilksy picking up the ball and tearing down the wing.....oh those day's!!!

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Re: MATCHWATCH : Millwall (a) sponsored by Ricky Newman

by Crowbar6753 » 27 Nov 2020 20:18

Hound oh yeah I wouldnt be against it. I just don't think it'd magically make us an entertaining/more successful team as suggested above

Would just be a slightly better plan b than throw on Baldock

Not really sure there 'natural wingers' are a huge part of the game anymore tbh though. Just thinking of the top teams in the country - not sure I can think of anyone who plays regularly as an out and out winger. There are a few - Hudson-Odoi, Pepe etc on the fringes. But even the likes of Sterling tend to drift inside more


Totally agree with you Hound, however even if they cut inside or stay on the line they have the pace to scare a defender into making a mistake. Take Ejaria for instance, the other night against Millwall, whenever he got the ball he either ran around in circles or slowed the paly down to walking speed. Great if your in and around the penalty area trying to draw the foul, but totally frustrating when the rest of the team are trying to break forward.

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Re: MATCHWATCH : Millwall (a) sponsored by Ricky Newman

by Snowflake Royal » 27 Nov 2020 20:40

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I think there’s a general trend that the most successful teams now play with width

Yiadom and Richards offer some width but not enough. Meite stays fairly wide I guess but he’s not the sort to go out wide and cross it in (and understandably, it’s not his game)

Besides, which speedy wingers have we had recently who’s played regularly? Might just be me but can’t think of a single one other than Barrow


Barrow the regular when we played some awful football. But then McCleary was still quick in Stam S1. Timbe also appeared and made little difference. Meite is quick and has played left and right wing. Richards played there last year at times and is also quick. Can never quite work out if Aluko is speedy or not, but he is meant to be.


Barrow was crucial to us staying in the division. Without his goals and assists we were going down.
Successful Reading sides at this level have played with quality wingers. Kebe and McAnuff and Little and Convey.
We just haven’t had many decent wingers at the club in recent years. That doesn’t mean we should not have wingers at the club.

Not sure we really played proper wingers in 1995 and you can hardly say that wasn't successful.

Just because one thing is successful doesn't mean you always have to play that way. Football changes and evolves and the success you specifically mention came within about a six year period. Even then the way we played under McDermott and Coppell were very different.

Got to get over this obsession with wingers, look at how we actually play and focus on what's needed to make that work rather than constantly wanting to tear everything down and start again in a completely different way which requires a different squad.


Oh, and oxf*rd playing Puscas wide. He can barely play striker at times, let alone anywhere else.

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Re: MATCHWATCH : Millwall (a) sponsored by Ricky Newman

by Zip » 27 Nov 2020 20:48

We certainly had pace down one flank with Gilkes. We also had a very high quality centre back in Wdowcyzk who could pass the ball out of defence. That team was suited to the passing style that McGhee brought in.
What I don’t want to see recurring this season is the same stagnant football where we take an absolute age getting from one end of the pitch to the other by which time the opposition have regrouped.


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Re: MATCHWATCH : Millwall (a) sponsored by Ricky Newman

by Hound » 27 Nov 2020 20:59

I liked Barrow and he did well for us but it also coincided with us being absolutely terrible and also appalling to watch. Which was the point of what I was saying

I don’t think we are slow and turgid to watch generally now. There have certainly been games when we have been but then there’s also been plenty when we’ve played some good incisive football - generally more away than at home from the games I’ve seen

We’re certainly not like we were under Stam, Clement or even Bowen

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Re: MATCHWATCH : Millwall (a) sponsored by Ricky Newman

by Zip » 27 Nov 2020 21:02

Hound I liked Barrow and he did well for us but it also coincided with us being absolutely terrible and also appalling to watch. Which was the point of what I was saying

I don’t think we are slow and turgid to watch generally now. There have certainly been games when we have been but then there’s also been plenty when we’ve played some good incisive football - generally more away than at home from the games I’ve seen

We’re certainly not like we were under Stam, Clement or even Bowen


I dunno. We really looked incisive against Blackburn. On Wednesday night it reminded me of those grim days again where we barely managed to get the ball into their penalty box and took an age to move the ball forward.

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Re: MATCHWATCH : Millwall (a) sponsored by Ricky Newman

by Crowbar6753 » 27 Nov 2020 21:44

Zip
Hound I liked Barrow and he did well for us but it also coincided with us being absolutely terrible and also appalling to watch. Which was the point of what I was saying

I don’t think we are slow and turgid to watch generally now. There have certainly been games when we have been but then there’s also been plenty when we’ve played some good incisive football - generally more away than at home from the games I’ve seen

We’re certainly not like we were under Stam, Clement or even Bowen


I dunno. We really looked incisive against Blackburn. On Wednesday night it reminded me of those grim days again where we barely managed to get the ball into their penalty box and took an age to move the ball forward.


Against Blackburn we looked sharp and incisive and tore then to schreds early on in the game, however, i guess Millwall are a different kettle of fish and much harder to break down.
My real gripe is our inability to dictate the game when we play at the Mad Stad!! Our home record over the last three years is appaling, and we always seem to get dominated by the away teams.
For any team to be sucsessful you need to make your own ground a fortress! how many of you guys on here can honestly say you are confident about beating Brizzle tomorrow???

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Re: MATCHWATCH : Millwall (a) sponsored by Ricky Newman

by Zip » 27 Nov 2020 21:59

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Hound I liked Barrow and he did well for us but it also coincided with us being absolutely terrible and also appalling to watch. Which was the point of what I was saying

I don’t think we are slow and turgid to watch generally now. There have certainly been games when we have been but then there’s also been plenty when we’ve played some good incisive football - generally more away than at home from the games I’ve seen

We’re certainly not like we were under Stam, Clement or even Bowen


I dunno. We really looked incisive against Blackburn. On Wednesday night it reminded me of those grim days again where we barely managed to get the ball into their penalty box and took an age to move the ball forward.


Against Blackburn we looked sharp and incisive and tore then to schreds early on in the game, however, i guess Millwall are a different kettle of fish and much harder to break down.
My real gripe is our inability to dictate the game when we play at the Mad Stad!! Our home record over the last three years is appaling, and we always seem to get dominated by the away teams.
For any team to be sucsessful you need to make your own ground a fortress! how many of you guys on here can honestly say you are confident about beating Brizzle tomorrow???


I can see tomorrow being a draw.


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Re: MATCHWATCH : Millwall (a) sponsored by Ricky Newman

by URZZZZ » 28 Nov 2020 01:07

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I think there’s a general trend that the most successful teams now play with width

Yiadom and Richards offer some width but not enough. Meite stays fairly wide I guess but he’s not the sort to go out wide and cross it in (and understandably, it’s not his game)

Besides, which speedy wingers have we had recently who’s played regularly? Might just be me but can’t think of a single one other than Barrow


Barrow the regular when we played some awful football. But then McCleary was still quick in Stam S1. Timbe also appeared and made little difference. Meite is quick and has played left and right wing. Richards played there last year at times and is also quick. Can never quite work out if Aluko is speedy or not, but he is meant to be.


Barrow was crucial to us staying in the division. Without his goals and assists we were going down.
Successful Reading sides at this level have played with quality wingers. Kebe and McAnuff and Little and Convey.
We just haven’t had many decent wingers at the club in recent years. That doesn’t mean we should not have wingers at the club.


Guess you could also argue our third most successful Championship team (Stam season 1) used two out and out wingers too

They were both decent although I’d perhaps cross the line at quality

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Re: MATCHWATCH : Millwall (a) sponsored by Ricky Newman

by Zip » 28 Nov 2020 01:11

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Barrow the regular when we played some awful football. But then McCleary was still quick in Stam S1. Timbe also appeared and made little difference. Meite is quick and has played left and right wing. Richards played there last year at times and is also quick. Can never quite work out if Aluko is speedy or not, but he is meant to be.


Barrow was crucial to us staying in the division. Without his goals and assists we were going down.
Successful Reading sides at this level have played with quality wingers. Kebe and McAnuff and Little and Convey.
We just haven’t had many decent wingers at the club in recent years. That doesn’t mean we should not have wingers at the club.


Guess you could also argue our third most successful Championship team (Stam season 1) used two out and out wingers too

They were both decent although I’d perhaps cross the line at quality


GMac was certainly quality in the first half of that season. Beerens did ok too

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Re: MATCHWATCH : Millwall (a) sponsored by Ricky Newman

by URZZZZ » 28 Nov 2020 01:13

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URZZZZ
Hound oh yeah I wouldnt be against it. I just don't think it'd magically make us an entertaining/more successful team as suggested above

Would just be a slightly better plan b than throw on Baldock

Not really sure there 'natural wingers' are a huge part of the game anymore tbh though. Just thinking of the top teams in the country - not sure I can think of anyone who plays regularly as an out and out winger. There are a few - Hudson-Odoi, Pepe etc on the fringes. But even the likes of Sterling tend to drift inside more


You’re right that it’s certainly a smaller portion of the game than it used to be

And I admit I’m biased because I’ve always preferred playing with wingers (after all, all our most successful teams have used two “natural” wingers). Always used to rate Sane at City for example, their best football coincided with him playing week in week out

But even so, those top teams you’ve alluded to, whilst not using wingers, have fullbacks that can take that workload. James and Chilwell for example. Saka and Bellerin. Doherty and Reguilon. Obvious ones of Trent and Robertson. Most of those have the ability to offer width, take a man on and whip a dangerous cross in. Although Richards has improved in this regard, just not sure our fullbacks really have the ability to do that

Not arguing the above is the only way to play though. For example, not sure how much use it’d have been against Stoke with their box packed with defenders. Just think it adds a different dimension to the game on occasions our plan A isn’t working too well


I think Richards and Esteves are partly meant to provide that width and an attacking threat, which is partly what you have called. At times it has worked, and you've seen Laurent drop into make a back 3, but sadly thats also coincided with us conceding a shit load of goals. They're obviously not at TAA, James, Chilwell etc levels yet, but you can see the plan.

Just going back to the point about making more exciting. I think at times we've looked pretty special going forward - in fact got a couple of comments at ht against Bournemouth just how good we looked. Its just getting that balance with having a solid backline that is proving difficult

IN an ideal world, I'd also quite like the option of going 4-4-2, having 2 wingers bomb down the line and send in crosses for Joao and Puscas. I'm just not sure that wouldn't just get picked apart nowadays unless you have absolutely the right personnel. And we don't really.


Oh yeah, I do think we’ve looked stronger offensively this year and no need to change it at the moment as the 4-2-3-1 definitely suits our players more than anything else

Just think it may be an option to put some time and resources into finding one or two wingers as “another option”. Albeit not just grabbing the first option, can’t imagine Masika/Sims/Pop were well thought, logical calls for example, we’ve had enough squad fillers who contribute nothing in recent years

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Re: MATCHWATCH : Millwall (a) sponsored by Ricky Newman

by NewCorkSeth » 28 Nov 2020 07:28

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Barrow the regular when we played some awful football. But then McCleary was still quick in Stam S1. Timbe also appeared and made little difference. Meite is quick and has played left and right wing. Richards played there last year at times and is also quick. Can never quite work out if Aluko is speedy or not, but he is meant to be.


Barrow was crucial to us staying in the division. Without his goals and assists we were going down.
Successful Reading sides at this level have played with quality wingers. Kebe and McAnuff and Little and Convey.
We just haven’t had many decent wingers at the club in recent years. That doesn’t mean we should not have wingers at the club.

Not sure we really played proper wingers in 1995 and you can hardly say that wasn't successful.

Just because one thing is successful doesn't mean you always have to play that way. Football changes and evolves and the success you specifically mention came within about a six year period. Even then the way we played under McDermott and Coppell were very different.

Got to get over this obsession with wingers, look at how we actually play and focus on what's needed to make that work rather than constantly wanting to tear everything down and start again in a completely different way which requires a different squad.


Oh, and oxf*rd playing Puscas wide. He can barely play striker at times, let alone anywhere else.

Harsh. You don't think he is capable of replicating a lot of the work Meite does on the right flank?

He offers more aerial presence than any of our other options for that spot. His pace is pretty good. He certainly has some determination. As I think I have said for the last 3 years Baldock does a job out there and the only thing Baldock has on Puscas is work rate. Maybe experience.


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Re: MATCHWATCH : Millwall (a) sponsored by Ricky Newman

by NewCorkSeth » 28 Nov 2020 07:35

Hound I liked Barrow and he did well for us but it also coincided with us being absolutely terrible and also appalling to watch. Which was the point of what I was saying

I don’t think we are slow and turgid to watch generally now. There have certainly been games when we have been but then there’s also been plenty when we’ve played some good incisive football - generally more away than at home from the games I’ve seen

We’re certainly not like we were under Stam, Clement or even Bowen

Slow and turgid are not words I would use to describe us this season so far. We seem to take time to get into the game in the first half but we have had some very pacy counter attacks in almost every game.

Also I think people are being a bit harsh on Ejaria. The whole "he slows down attacks" narrative isn't something I see. A lot of the time attacks don't happen without him holding the ball up for Richards and, unless Richards has bombed ahead of him, there is never really an option going forward because he is marked so tightly.

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Re: MATCHWATCH : Millwall (a) sponsored by Ricky Newman

by Snowflake Royal » 28 Nov 2020 08:08

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Barrow was crucial to us staying in the division. Without his goals and assists we were going down.
Successful Reading sides at this level have played with quality wingers. Kebe and McAnuff and Little and Convey.
We just haven’t had many decent wingers at the club in recent years. That doesn’t mean we should not have wingers at the club.

Not sure we really played proper wingers in 1995 and you can hardly say that wasn't successful.

Just because one thing is successful doesn't mean you always have to play that way. Football changes and evolves and the success you specifically mention came within about a six year period. Even then the way we played under McDermott and Coppell were very different.

Got to get over this obsession with wingers, look at how we actually play and focus on what's needed to make that work rather than constantly wanting to tear everything down and start again in a completely different way which requires a different squad.


Oh, and oxf*rd playing Puscas wide. He can barely play striker at times, let alone anywhere else.

Harsh. You don't think he is capable of replicating a lot of the work Meite does on the right flank?

He offers more aerial presence than any of our other options for that spot. His pace is pretty good. He certainly has some determination. As I think I have said for the last 3 years Baldock does a job out there and the only thing Baldock has on Puscas is work rate. Maybe experience.

No.

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Re: MATCHWATCH : Millwall (a) sponsored by Ricky Newman

by bcubed » 28 Nov 2020 14:59

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Snowflake Royal Not sure we really played proper wingers in 1995 and you can hardly say that wasn't successful.

Just because one thing is successful doesn't mean you always have to play that way. Football changes and evolves and the success you specifically mention came within about a six year period. Even then the way we played under McDermott and Coppell were very different.

Got to get over this obsession with wingers, look at how we actually play and focus on what's needed to make that work rather than constantly wanting to tear everything down and start again in a completely different way which requires a different squad.


Oh, and oxf*rd playing Puscas wide. He can barely play striker at times, let alone anywhere else.

Harsh. You don't think he is capable of replicating a lot of the work Meite does on the right flank?

He offers more aerial presence than any of our other options for that spot. His pace is pretty good. He certainly has some determination. As I think I have said for the last 3 years Baldock does a job out there and the only thing Baldock has on Puscas is work rate. Maybe experience.

No.


If in doubt look at the way Yak played today. There’s no way Puscas could match that

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Re: MATCHWATCH : Millwall (a) sponsored by Ricky Newman

by NewCorkSeth » 28 Nov 2020 16:51

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NewCorkSeth Harsh. You don't think he is capable of replicating a lot of the work Meite does on the right flank?

He offers more aerial presence than any of our other options for that spot. His pace is pretty good. He certainly has some determination. As I think I have said for the last 3 years Baldock does a job out there and the only thing Baldock has on Puscas is work rate. Maybe experience.

No.


If in doubt look at the way Yak played today. There’s no way Puscas could match that

Puscas is well capable of missing a sitter and scoring a great goal.

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Re: MATCHWATCH : Millwall (a) sponsored by Ricky Newman

by Snowflake Royal » 28 Nov 2020 16:55

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Snowflake Royal No.


If in doubt look at the way Yak played today. There’s no way Puscas could match that

Puscas is well capable of missing a sitter and scoring a great goal.

FYI, Yaks game is about more than shooting.

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Re: MATCHWATCH : Millwall (a) sponsored by Ricky Newman

by NewCorkSeth » 28 Nov 2020 17:26

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bcubed
If in doubt look at the way Yak played today. There’s no way Puscas could match that

Puscas is well capable of missing a sitter and scoring a great goal.

FYI, Yaks game is about more than shooting.

Cmon Snowflake, you know me better than that.

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