You'll Never Walk Alone will be played before K.O today....

Alexander Litvinenko · by **Alexander Litvinenko** » 20 Sep 2012 09:24

You may be right about the design of stadia, but the whole systematic cover-up, the closing of ranks and altering of evidence - and general contempt for the truth is still very relevant.

Allow that to go unpunished on the grounds of economy and what's to stop it happened again?

HoneyRoastHoax · by **HoneyRoastHoax** » 20 Sep 2012 09:28

Alexander Litvinenko You may be right about the design of stadia, but the whole systematic cover-up, the closing of ranks and altering of evidence - and general contempt for the truth is still very relevant.

Allow that to go unpunished on the grounds of economy and what's to stop it happened again?

Ah yes, now that can surely be raised with the CPS without a whole case review at the high courts?

Thats a prosecution of persons, only a part of what they want. That I agree with.

Yes Cmonurz it is easy to say when I wasn't personally affected but think of the money that would be spent on this. It would mean others in need right now right here would go without.

Would that people who died even want that?

Royal Biscuitman · by **Royal Biscuitman** » 20 Sep 2012 09:30

I remember seeing it on tv at the time knowing someone who was there - he managed to climb to the upper tier and safety.

I also recall a young hobnob user posting on a thread about a Hillsborough rememberance asking "what happened there then?" - they genuinely hadn't heard of it (could have googled but didn't)

Safety regulations get relaxed when people think these things can't happen again, It's important we remember, It's also important to think ahead. Just because something hasn't happened it doesn't mean it can't.... hence why the Stairs of death were closed off and grassed over outside the East/South Stand when it became apparent that they were a danger.

In the case of Hillsborough, Prosecution should happen as a lesson to future generations of officials and governments that the truth will out and there is no hiding.

Alexander Litvinenko · by **Alexander Litvinenko** » 20 Sep 2012 09:31

Extend the "cost" argument elsewhere and we might as well disband much of the criminal justice system.

Royal Biscuitman · by **Royal Biscuitman** » 20 Sep 2012 09:36

Alexander Litvinenko Extend the "cost" argument elsewhere and we might as well disband much of the criminal justice system.

It will set a dangerous precedent of only taking cheap cases to trial and letting anyone off if it looks a bit complicated and therefore expensive.

HoneyRoastHoax · by **HoneyRoastHoax** » 20 Sep 2012 09:38

RB - Safety regulations don't get relaxed. Trust me. They are taken very seriously by councils and the emergency services

AL - I know what you're saying and Im not going to be able to change your mind. It would just be interesting to see how much it would cost and what funding would have to be diverted from more pressing causes. If this is the case then maybe there are crimes from WW2 which affected thousands more people that aren't going to court because its too much cost and effort

creative_username_1 · by **creative_username_1** » 20 Sep 2012 09:41

What exactly do the relatives want? What is 'justice' to them. (I Genuinely don't know what they want the outcome to be)

I believe you can do something about the cover up side of things but not sure how you can do anything about the events
of the actual day. History seems clearer and more organised in history books than empirical reality. I'm not sure how you'd
eliminate that retrospective distortion. How do you factor in events such as Heysel into the police attitudes etc.

There are so many random events happening, it's an uncertain world.

melonhead · by **melonhead** » 20 Sep 2012 09:43

its clear in the report, and from the FA apology that they were complicit in choosing a ground that wasnt suitable for the match

HoneyRoastHoax · by **HoneyRoastHoax** » 20 Sep 2012 09:44

creative_username_1 What exactly do the relatives want? What is 'justice' to them. (I Genuinely don't know what they want the outcome to be)

I believe you can do something about the cover up side of things but not sure how you can do anything about the events
of the actual day. History seems clearer and more organised in history books than empirical reality. I'm not sure how you'd
eliminate that retrospective distortion. How do you factor in events such as Heysel into the police attitudes etc.

There are so many random events happening, it's an uncertain world.

The deaths were recorded as accidental, they want that changed. That from what I can make out from land dolphin speak is all they want.

creative_username_1 · by **creative_username_1** » 20 Sep 2012 09:46

It's such a rare event that had never happened before in exactly the same situation. It's easy to look back and say that
shouldn't have been allowed to happen

melonhead · by **melonhead** » 20 Sep 2012 09:48

yes it is, because it shouldnt

cmonurz · by **cmonurz** » 20 Sep 2012 09:59

HoneyRoastHoax AL - I know what you're saying and Im not going to be able to change your mind. It would just be interesting to see how much it would cost and what funding would have to be diverted from more pressing causes. If this is the case then maybe there are crimes from WW2 which affected thousands more people that aren't going to court because its too much cost and effort

Well you've stumbled upon an example where proceedings are still continuing - each year we see 90 year old Nazis finally brought to court to face justice for their war crimes.

Each and every cause will be championed by someone. To the relatives of those killed at Hillsborough there will be no more pressing cause than achieving proper justice for their loved ones. Personally, did I give a toss that Dale Cregan was on the loose in Manchester? No. Doesn't mean it wasn't worth the thousands a day the police force was sinking to try to find him though.

HoneyRoastHoax · by **HoneyRoastHoax** » 20 Sep 2012 10:02

cmonurz
HoneyRoastHoax AL - I know what you're saying and Im not going to be able to change your mind. It would just be interesting to see how much it would cost and what funding would have to be diverted from more pressing causes. If this is the case then maybe there are crimes from WW2 which affected thousands more people that aren't going to court because its too much cost and effort

Well you've stumbled upon an example where proceedings are still continuing - each year we see 90 year old Nazis finally brought to court to face justice for their war crimes.

Each and every cause will be championed by someone. To the relatives of those killed at Hillsborough there will be no more pressing cause than achieving proper justice for their loved ones. Personally, did I give a toss that Dale Cregan was on the loose in Manchester? No. Doesn't mean it wasn't worth the thousands a day the police force was sinking to try to find him though.

Ah but he was a criminal, it was an active relevant case that was likely to continue costing money shirley?

*not arguing just deb8tnig

cmonurz · by **cmonurz** » 20 Sep 2012 10:05

Hillsborough is an active and relevant case, in the same way as if (god forbid) someone close to you or I is determined to have been unlawfully killed, however long ago.

HoneyRoastHoax · by **HoneyRoastHoax** » 20 Sep 2012 10:18

cmonurz Hillsborough is an active and relevant case, in the same way as if (god forbid) someone close to you or I is determined to have been unlawfully killed, however long ago.

I would say its active but in the strictness of the terms not relevant.

What more can be learned from it? Apart from the pigs were some sh*t

Alexander Litvinenko · by **Alexander Litvinenko** » 20 Sep 2012 10:22

HoneyRoastHoax What more can be learned from it? Apart from the pigs were some sh*t

What can be leaned is that people will be free to do it again unless there's a threat of punishment.

Negative_Jeff · by **Negative_Jeff** » 20 Sep 2012 10:31

Reading FC are rather good at this sort of thing. Witness last year`s minutes silence eight days early at the start of "remembrance week" as introduced by our dotty PA announcer. I am quite capable of walking up to the memorial on the heath on Remembrance Sunday. What next, the Liverpool anthem played when the CPS announces proceedings? Or the sentencing? Or the Italian national anthem if there is another enquiry into Heysel? There would surely have been a minutes silence at all grounds when these poor people died 23 years ago and rightly so. This is a Liverpool thing so why does our football club continually try to emulate the Scousers in wallowing in sentimentality? Maybe it`s just the big loud U`rzzzz when the ref blows the whistle and then we can all fall back asleep through the game as usual.

HoneyRoastHoax · by **HoneyRoastHoax** » 20 Sep 2012 10:33

Alexander Litvinenko
HoneyRoastHoax What more can be learned from it? Apart from the pigs were some sh*t

What can be leaned is that people will be free to do it again unless there's a threat of punishment.

There is easier threat of punishment now though. The constantly evolving Safety at sports ground act, emergency services legislation, Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005 and HSE legislation.

Alexander Litvinenko · by **Alexander Litvinenko** » 20 Sep 2012 11:33

HoneyRoastHoax There is easier threat of punishment now though. The constantly evolving Safety at sports ground act, emergency services legislation, Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005 and HSE legislation.

Yes, but a founding principle of the British justice system is that "justice is seen to be done". Let it not be done for cost reasons on something that has such precedent and affects so many and you're taking out a fundamental corner-stone of that system.

Alexander Litvinenko · by **Alexander Litvinenko** » 20 Sep 2012 11:35

Negative_Jeff ..... This is a Liverpool thing ......

I've sen where your argument breaks down. This is not a "Liverpool thing" - this is a "football thing". It could have happened to any set of supporters and the ramifications of it affect us all.

Anyone who doesn't appreciate that simple fact either doesn't understand what happened and the issues raised or has decided they don't want to.

You'll Never Walk Alone will be played before K.O today....

Playing YNWA before kick off today is

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