Adkins: 'I don't think Reading can reach 100 goal target"

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Re: Adkins: 'I don't think Reading can reach 100 goal target

by P!ssed Off » 08 Sep 2013 19:46

Ian Royal
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Ian Royal Absolutely Cypry. Everything said is about intent. It is not a concrete prediction of the future that sets it in stone.

We intended to sign more players, we didn't intend that our business was done. We failed in our intention. It's that simple.


No.

To show intention he could/should have said "We would like to sign at least one more player" or "We will try to sign one more player"

"It is not the end in terms of signings" is a categorical, not conditional, statement.

If someone at the club is foolish enough to make a categorical statement, then I will hold them to it.
If he's not 100% sure that the club will make another signing, which obviously he wasn't because we didn't, then he shouldn't say "It is not the end in terms of signings" .


Some people don't decide to caveat absolutely every statement they make with get out clauses and loop holes, just so that if something unexpected goes wrong, they don't have to expect people to realise the blindingly obvious.

Christ that would be a long winded and tedious world to live in where all statements were delivered by lawyers with full qualifying debrief on the simple message trying to be given.


Not really.
There are certain situations where anyone with half a brain cell knows to be careful what they say and not give categorical statements if they're not 100% confident of delivering.

Talking to the press, whether on the radio, or for a newspaper article, is one such situation.
Another situation might be when talking to a superior at work, for example.

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Re: Adkins: 'I don't think Reading can reach 100 goal target

by Gav » 08 Sep 2013 21:16

Megagree with this ^^

If I said to a superior I would do something without a caveat, woe betide me if I didn't hit the timelines promised

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Re: Adkins: 'I don't think Reading can reach 100 goal target

by tmesis » 08 Sep 2013 21:28

Expecting to sign more players is not a guarantee it'll happen. It's not a promise. It's merely an implication that signing more players is more likely than not.

You need to be oxf*rd thick or have a shedload of axes to grind not to understand that.

The club wanted to sign players. They failed to do so. That failure is a failure, no escaping that, but anyone claiming they've been lied to is just a drama queen.

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Re: Adkins: 'I don't think Reading can reach 100 goal target

by Royal Rother » 08 Sep 2013 22:04

I like that.

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Re: Adkins: 'I don't think Reading can reach 100 goal target

by Ian Royal » 08 Sep 2013 22:39

Gav Megagree with this ^^

If I said to a superior I would do something without a caveat, woe betide me if I didn't hit the timelines promised

But you wouldn't have made a promise and been a liar. You'd just have failed to achieve your aim.


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Re: Adkins: 'I don't think Reading can reach 100 goal target

by P!ssed Off » 08 Sep 2013 22:43

Ian Royal
Gav Megagree with this ^^

If I said to a superior I would do something without a caveat, woe betide me if I didn't hit the timelines promised


But you wouldn't have made a promise and been a liar. You'd just have failed to achieve your aim.


There's a difference between stating what you aim to do and stating what you will do.
Why can't you see that?

Ian Royal's Supervisor: Ian Royal! Why have you not finished the project, when it needed to be finished by today and you said it would be?
Ian Royal: You shouldn't have taken me so literally you mong! I aimed to finish by today but that was conditional on whether I could be arsed. Get over it!
Last edited by P!ssed Off on 08 Sep 2013 22:50, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Adkins: 'I don't think Reading can reach 100 goal target

by Avon Royal » 08 Sep 2013 22:44

tmesis Expecting to sign more players is not a guarantee it'll happen. It's not a promise. It's merely an implication that signing more players is more likely than not.

You need to be oxf*rd thick or have a shedload of axes to grind not to understand that.

The club wanted to sign players. They failed to do so. That failure is a failure, no escaping that, but anyone claiming they've been lied to is just a drama queen.


I don't think many people are saying they've been lied to. I think most people are just frustrated and disappointed that the club failed to deliver on its plan. What is annoying is that some people seem to think that "disappointment" is somehow wrong.

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Re: Adkins: 'I don't think Reading can reach 100 goal target

by Cypry » 09 Sep 2013 07:25

Avon Royal
tmesis Expecting to sign more players is not a guarantee it'll happen. It's not a promise. It's merely an implication that signing more players is more likely than not.

You need to be oxf*rd thick or have a shedload of axes to grind not to understand that.

The club wanted to sign players. They failed to do so. That failure is a failure, no escaping that, but anyone claiming they've been lied to is just a drama queen.


I don't think many people are saying they've been lied to. I think most people are just frustrated and disappointed that the club failed to deliver on its plan. What is annoying is that some people seem to think that "disappointment" is somehow wrong.


But that's what a significant number of people are saying - there's a 10 page thread on here titled "Why won't the club tell us the truth?"....

I'm disappointed that we didn't strengthen more than we did, but unlike P!ssed Off and those who share the same view, I don't feel in any way hoodwinked by the club. It's my view that funds were available for the right players, at the right price, but that those players were of sufficient quality that we found ourselves competing with Premier League clubs and their TV money windfall, and ultimately failed to win that battle...

My issue is with those who seem to want to believe that there's all sorts of conspiracies at play....

- "Anton has no money" - there's nothing to suggest this, but we are still running the club with a budget as we were told would be the case all along. A proportion of "fans" seemed to have somehow decided that Anton was going to "do an Abramovich", despite being repeatedly told that would not be the case....

- "Anton is siphoning money out of the club into his own pocket". We had the same accusations thrown at SJM for years, accusations which the clubs own accounts show to be completely baseless...

- "The club is repeatedly pretending to be active in the transfer market to appease fans, with no intention of signing anyone"....third party evidence (confirmation from Spurs of a deal agreed in principal on Gylfi for example) shows this isn't the case...

- "If Wigan and QPR can spend money, why can't we, after all, we have parachute payments as well?" As I've repeatedly pointed out, both Wigan and QPR made significant sums early in the Summer with the sales of Kone and Samba respectively. We made no such sales, with our only significant income coming in the last week of the Window (an income which I believe is vastly over-stated at £5M anyway) and we wouldn't have had time to include that income in our budgeting anyway given that both deals were finalised so late....

- "Anton promised us more signings." You're taking the word of a man, for whom his first language is not English, quite literally. As someone else said, you're either stupid, or have an axe to grind. If you've ever bothered to listen to Anton, whilst his English is a million times better than my Russian, it's quite clear that he doesn't fully understand all of the semantics of the English language, so to take what he says literally is simply asking for trouble. Personally, I admire how open he's been so far, but I fear that this open approach will disappear pretty quickly if all he gets is abuse....

As I said, I'm disappointed that we failed to get our targets, but there's a World of difference between being disappointed and behaving like a spoilt, petulant, child as a significant and vocal proportion of our fan base are currently doing......

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Re: Adkins: 'I don't think Reading can reach 100 goal target

by Avon Royal » 09 Sep 2013 07:47

There is a difference between not being informed of the "truth" and being lied to. At the time that thread was started the club had said nothing at all.

With respect, you seem to miss the point that all those conspiracy theories exist purely because the club haven't clarified exactly what the position is. When there is a perceivable mismatch between the club's words and visible actions it is obvious that confusion will be caused. Where confusion reigns, suspicion follows.

If the club could be more open and honest as to what happened, what our plan is for this season and what the future strategy is then I think everyone would feel a lot happier.


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Re: Adkins: 'I don't think Reading can reach 100 goal target

by The Quiet Man » 09 Sep 2013 08:05

I would think that the disappointment is related to the fact that Adkins was brought in early to sort out the team and change around a disappointing squad. Plenty of people, yourself included, were hinting that McD had not spent all the money given to him in the prem transfer windows. I think we now have a better idea what not spending all your money in the transfer window can mean now.

SJM was perceived as having not put enough money into the club meaning we would never really be a prem club, again AZ was presented as an alternative to that situation, now we find he is unable to sort out a striker for a campaign in the championship, so you can understand why people are a little underwhelmed, absolutely nothing has changed, we will do it on the cheap and fail exactly the same way as before.

I'm disappointed that we haven't recruited a forward and several other hungry lower divsion players as we now look like to have the clasic recipe for a relegated side that will struggle to make a mark in the league this season.

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Re: Adkins: 'I don't think Reading can reach 100 goal target

by The Real Sandhurst Royal » 09 Sep 2013 08:08

Adkins is dead right we won't get 100 goals, we will miss it by miles.... After all it is down to him to sign the players and have a strike force in place that all clubs fear which he has failed to do.

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Re: Adkins: 'I don't think Reading can reach 100 goal target

by Cypry » 09 Sep 2013 09:09

The Quiet Man I would think that the disappointment is related to the fact that Adkins was brought in early to sort out the team and change around a disappointing squad. Plenty of people, yourself included, were hinting that McD had not spent all the money given to him in the prem transfer windows. I think we now have a better idea what not spending all your money in the transfer window can mean now.

SJM was perceived as having not put enough money into the club meaning we would never really be a prem club, again AZ was presented as an alternative to that situation, now we find he is unable to sort out a striker for a campaign in the championship, so you can understand why people are a little underwhelmed, absolutely nothing has changed, we will do it on the cheap and fail exactly the same way as before.

I'm disappointed that we haven't recruited a forward and several other hungry lower divsion players as we now look like to have the clasic recipe for a relegated side that will struggle to make a mark in the league this season.


Granted, but there's a fundamental difference between the situation McD was in then, and the situation Adkins is in now...

Last Summer, Brian had a budget as a newly promoted Premier League side, and whilst we were favourites to go down, the fact remains that players want to play in the PL, and we were in a position to attract them (as evidenced by the signing of Pog). In January, the situation was a little harder, we were pretty much nailed in the bottom 3 and players might have considered that they would be joining a sinking ship....

However, this Summer, we are a Championship club, and need to attract players on that basis - it's a very different situation. You say "we will do it on the cheap", I say that with the Premier League clubs having effectively an extra £20M disposable income this year they can effectively cherry pick whichever players they want, as no Championship club can expect to compete financially with them. It's this opinion that the club are "doing it on the cheap" that I have the biggest problem with. The club are investing heavily in the academy, in the training ground, and in players salaries. They're also prepared to spend the going rate for a Championship club on transfers, but I think that some people have forgotten that we're relegated and if a Premier League club decides they want a player who we're interested in, we don't have a hope of competing....

If other Championship clubs had made significant signings, then those moaning would have a point, but with the exception of Wigan, QPR, Forest and Watford (the former two who sold heavily to invest and the latter who are cheating the system) nobody has made significant signings in the Championship this year, so it's not just us who are suffering.

Perhaps we should have looked to the lower leagues, but then we'd have had a "no ambition" accusation thrown at the club (let's face it, Blackman and Akpan came from exactly that route and those signings have been really well received)...

I'm not suggesting the club hasn't made errors this window - we didn't strengthen as we wanted to so mistakes were made, even if that was just underestimating the aggressive approach of the PL sides this year. What I have a problem with is when people accuse the club of deliberately misleading the fans, as I don't personally believe this to be the case....

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Re: Adkins: 'I don't think Reading can reach 100 goal target

by Royal Rother » 09 Sep 2013 09:24

The Quiet Man SJM was perceived as having not put enough money into the club meaning we would never really be a prem club, again AZ was presented as an alternative to that situation, now we find he is unable to sort out a striker for a campaign in the championship, so you can understand why people are a little underwhelmed, absolutely nothing has changed, we will do it on the cheap and fail exactly the same way as before.


Under SJM the club had to sell its best players to maintain financial stability.

Under AZ that has not been the case, despite not being able to offload the most expensive player we have, who has proved to be a bit of a flop.

What do you think the situation would have been under SJM if we were unable to offload Pog? I can tell you what. McCarthy, Guthrie, Le Fondre, Pearce and some others would have been sold alongside Mariappa and Kebe.

Do you not see that?


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Re: Adkins: 'I don't think Reading can reach 100 goal target

by Sanguine » 09 Sep 2013 09:39

Cypry "Anton promised us more signings." You're taking the word of a man, for whom his first language is not English, quite literally. As someone else said, you're either stupid, or have an axe to grind. If you've ever bothered to listen to Anton, whilst his English is a million times better than my Russian, it's quite clear that he doesn't fully understand all of the semantics of the English language, so to take what he says literally is simply asking for trouble. Personally, I admire how open he's been so far, but I fear that this open approach will disappear pretty quickly if all he gets is abuse....



Seven is seven, whichever way you look at it.

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Re: Adkins: 'I don't think Reading can reach 100 goal target

by Cypry » 09 Sep 2013 09:49

Sanguine
Cypry "Anton promised us more signings." You're taking the word of a man, for whom his first language is not English, quite literally. As someone else said, you're either stupid, or have an axe to grind. If you've ever bothered to listen to Anton, whilst his English is a million times better than my Russian, it's quite clear that he doesn't fully understand all of the semantics of the English language, so to take what he says literally is simply asking for trouble. Personally, I admire how open he's been so far, but I fear that this open approach will disappear pretty quickly if all he gets is abuse....



Seven is seven, whichever way you look at it.


Yes, but 7 promised is very different to wanting to sign 7....

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Re: Adkins: 'I don't think Reading can reach 100 goal target

by Extended-Phenotype » 09 Sep 2013 10:24

I think the truth is somewhere in between the ranting accusations of dishonesty and buttery blinkered defence.

Let’s not get overly dramatic and call them liars or look for conspiracy here but on the other hand lets lose the halo – RFC are a business, they aren’t saints. The noises coming from the club were misleading; while nothing was a concrete promise, nobody can deny that the use of language wasn’t short of confidence and lacked any real caveat. The snags we hit were hardly unusual, so it would be incredible to believe the club did not have these snags in mind when making their statements of intent. It’s not like we tried to sign 7 players but 4 of them exploded. We the fans know how hard the market is, the club must also, and yet the message was filled with conviction.

The fanbase needed to be lifted following relegation. Our better players needed to be satisfied ambition-wise in order to keep hold of them. And we had an image to condition in order to draw new players to the club.

I’m certain they wanted to bring in 7 players but I think the message was more confident than the reality and for that reason I think the club were misleading. I’m not happy about it but as the club is a business which wants to keep its customers, keep its best staff and attract new recruits, I completely understand it.

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Re: Adkins: 'I don't think Reading can reach 100 goal target

by melonhead » 09 Sep 2013 10:25

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"We are looking at bringing in 2 or 3 more players this transfer window."

HNA - Gets collective hard-on.

And then we don't.

HNA - "No ambition - blah blah blah. Anton hasn't got any money, and Hammond is useless."


Inaccurate.
I believe we were looking to bring in 7 players during the transfer window.
This was scaled down to 3 for the last weekend of the window.

And what about this from Zingarevich (after the 3 initial signings):
"It is not the end in terms of signings," Zingarevich told BBC Radio Berkshire. "We have six weeks to go and we need to do a little bit more business."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/23377556

"It is not the end in terms of signings" = a firm categorical statement that there will be more signings not an aim or an objective that the club is looking to make more signings.
Ian Royal -I'd like to hear your thoughts about how this was also not a failed promise form the club.


scaled down to 3, cos we'd already got three you massive clown :|

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Re: Adkins: 'I don't think Reading can reach 100 goal target

by melonhead » 09 Sep 2013 10:27

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Ian Royal Absolutely Cypry. Everything said is about intent. It is not a concrete prediction of the future that sets it in stone.

We intended to sign more players, we didn't intend that our business was done. We failed in our intention. It's that simple.


No.

To show intention he could/should have said "We would like to sign at least one more player" or "We will try to sign one more player"

"It is not the end in terms of signings" is a categorical, not conditional, statement.

If someone at the club is foolish enough to make a categorical statement, then I will hold them to it.
If he's not 100% sure that the club will make another signing, which obviously he wasn't because we didn't, then he shouldn't say "It is not the end in terms of signings".



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Re: Adkins: 'I don't think Reading can reach 100 goal target

by melonhead » 09 Sep 2013 10:29

Ian Royal
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Ian Royal Absolutely Cypry. Everything said is about intent. It is not a concrete prediction of the future that sets it in stone.

We intended to sign more players, we didn't intend that our business was done. We failed in our intention. It's that simple.


No.

To show intention he could/should have said "We would like to sign at least one more player" or "We will try to sign one more player"

"It is not the end in terms of signings" is a categorical, not conditional, statement.

If someone at the club is foolish enough to make a categorical statement, then I will hold them to it.
If he's not 100% sure that the club will make another signing, which obviously he wasn't because we didn't, then he shouldn't say "It is not the end in terms of signings" .

Some people don't decide to caveat absolutely every statement they make with get out clauses and loop holes, just so that if something unexpected goes wrong, they don't have to expect people to realise the blindingly obvious.

.


he4 doesnt need to caveat it to death, since its simply a statement of intent, not a guarantee.


We intended to sign more players, we didn't intend that our business was done. We failed in our intention. It's that simple.


agreed. that^^^
all involved view it as a failure to achieve our aim.
but it is what it is, transfers are hard.
the window is silly.
what can ya do?

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Re: Adkins: 'I don't think Reading can reach 100 goal target

by melonhead » 09 Sep 2013 10:30

Gav Megagree with this ^^

If I said to a superior I would do something without a caveat, woe betide me if I didn't hit the timelines promised


he didnt promise anything though. just said we want to, we aim to, we plan on etc

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