by Ascotexgunner » 24 Nov 2021 13:24
by Millsy » 24 Nov 2021 13:25
windermereROYAL I don`t want to go all the way back but the home form since the play-off season does indeed make grim reading, 4 seasons and 10 games.
P102 W36 D24 L42 . on average we are losing 10 games a season and winning 8, that's just not sustainable and you can see it in the attendance figures.
Fans want to see their team win and bounce out of the ground with a smile on their faces, we see precious little of that now.
by Sutekh » 24 Nov 2021 13:36
MillsywindermereROYAL I don`t want to go all the way back but the home form since the play-off season does indeed make grim reading, 4 seasons and 10 games.
P102 W36 D24 L42 . on average we are losing 10 games a season and winning 8, that's just not sustainable and you can see it in the attendance figures.
Fans want to see their team win and bounce out of the ground with a smile on their faces, we see precious little of that now.
Yep we've been shite for ages.
by Snowflake Royal » 24 Nov 2021 14:14
Millsy It's this sort of cherry-picking small numbers of games that causes understandable anxiety and I do hear the arguments. I'm no Pauno-defender as last season we were debating the other way.
It also works the other way when we win a couple on the bounce and we think we're world beaters and Pauno is God.
A more sensible and sane approach is obviously to look at the wider picture, which is always worth more statistically and common sensically. The undeniable fact is that our form THIS SEASON THUS FAR has been comfortably midtable. Smoothing out all the ups, all the downs, the period without his chosen players, the period with all players fit and hitting form, and the longer period of utter desperation with injuries and playing people out of position and noone on the bench. All in all, warts and all, all that shit has given us a form of comfortable mid-table.
Yes with the deduction things look a bit scary but we are still that "comfortable mid-table" team and nothing has got worse. If anything it can only look better with players returning from injury slowly and with Carroll with us for the time being.
Whatever criticisms we throw at Pauno have been the case for months - I've been shovelling these criticisms at him non-stop since last season and called for him to be sacked until very recently. I don't see anything that has suddenly made him even shitter as a manager. If anything he's given me a fair bit of hope and seems to have learned a couple of things, playing 442 to chase games for example, bringing in a striker etc.
I see absolutely no reason to panic now any more than we should have done mid-last season where I seemed to be I think one of the only three here who were.
Currently not in a relagation spot, but a team playing generally midtable form. That = not ending up in a relegation spot at the end fo the season.
by Elm Park Kid » 24 Nov 2021 14:16
by Millsy » 24 Nov 2021 15:02
Snowflake RoyalMillsy It's this sort of cherry-picking small numbers of games that causes understandable anxiety and I do hear the arguments. I'm no Pauno-defender as last season we were debating the other way.
It also works the other way when we win a couple on the bounce and we think we're world beaters and Pauno is God.
A more sensible and sane approach is obviously to look at the wider picture, which is always worth more statistically and common sensically. The undeniable fact is that our form THIS SEASON THUS FAR has been comfortably midtable. Smoothing out all the ups, all the downs, the period without his chosen players, the period with all players fit and hitting form, and the longer period of utter desperation with injuries and playing people out of position and noone on the bench. All in all, warts and all, all that shit has given us a form of comfortable mid-table.
Yes with the deduction things look a bit scary but we are still that "comfortable mid-table" team and nothing has got worse. If anything it can only look better with players returning from injury slowly and with Carroll with us for the time being.
Whatever criticisms we throw at Pauno have been the case for months - I've been shovelling these criticisms at him non-stop since last season and called for him to be sacked until very recently. I don't see anything that has suddenly made him even shitter as a manager. If anything he's given me a fair bit of hope and seems to have learned a couple of things, playing 442 to chase games for example, bringing in a striker etc.
I see absolutely no reason to panic now any more than we should have done mid-last season where I seemed to be I think one of the only three here who were.
Currently not in a relagation spot, but a team playing generally midtable form. That = not ending up in a relegation spot at the end fo the season.
Take a look at our form since Xmas, almost a year. It's not cherry picking small numbers unless it's claiming performance is ok based on a run of 5 wins in 6 games.
Snowflake Royal What about 4 points from 7 games?
Our form, for two runs of a decent amount, has been sub relegation form.
by windermereROYAL » 24 Nov 2021 15:19
by Hound » 24 Nov 2021 15:26
Sutekh Reading have struggled really since adopting this wholly awful possession based boredom. .
by Snowflake Royal » 24 Nov 2021 17:41
MillsySnowflake RoyalMillsy It's this sort of cherry-picking small numbers of games that causes understandable anxiety and I do hear the arguments. I'm no Pauno-defender as last season we were debating the other way.
It also works the other way when we win a couple on the bounce and we think we're world beaters and Pauno is God.
A more sensible and sane approach is obviously to look at the wider picture, which is always worth more statistically and common sensically. The undeniable fact is that our form THIS SEASON THUS FAR has been comfortably midtable. Smoothing out all the ups, all the downs, the period without his chosen players, the period with all players fit and hitting form, and the longer period of utter desperation with injuries and playing people out of position and noone on the bench. All in all, warts and all, all that shit has given us a form of comfortable mid-table.
Yes with the deduction things look a bit scary but we are still that "comfortable mid-table" team and nothing has got worse. If anything it can only look better with players returning from injury slowly and with Carroll with us for the time being.
Whatever criticisms we throw at Pauno have been the case for months - I've been shovelling these criticisms at him non-stop since last season and called for him to be sacked until very recently. I don't see anything that has suddenly made him even shitter as a manager. If anything he's given me a fair bit of hope and seems to have learned a couple of things, playing 442 to chase games for example, bringing in a striker etc.
I see absolutely no reason to panic now any more than we should have done mid-last season where I seemed to be I think one of the only three here who were.
Currently not in a relagation spot, but a team playing generally midtable form. That = not ending up in a relegation spot at the end fo the season.
Take a look at our form since Xmas, almost a year. It's not cherry picking small numbers unless it's claiming performance is ok based on a run of 5 wins in 6 games.
When we talk about Xmas to Xmas of course we're not and that's fine and wouldn't provoke my response.
But I was responding to this:Snowflake Royal What about 4 points from 7 games?
Our form, for two runs of a decent amount, has been sub relegation form.
This is what I was getting at.
This is a discussion about our chances of relegation this season.
If we want to bring in last season then that's a whole different discussion, where I remind you that our clashes here were repeatedly me saying the form was dreadful since the beginning lucky few so he should go, but you and almost everyone here defended him based on the first 7 games. That's fine, but that's in the past.
Right now, this season, with the current situation, the current players, the current league, the current oppostion i.e. what ACTUALLY matters right now, we have to look at the whole season thus far and currently it shows comfortable midtable form. Cherry picking "4 points from 7 games" is not useful... and arbitrarily choosing to cherry pick the poor end of last season (when last season you were choosing the first few games instead to back your pro-Pauno stance) to append to this season is a bit unfair but yes, acceptable. More games, more data. Fine. It's even more fine then on that basis to extend it to the beginning of last season too so our form is then not just "comfortably midtable" as it is currently but is "outside playoffs/upper mid".
See, we can cherry pick parts of this or last season all day long to back up whatever view we happen to hold but the facts are with current squad, current league competition, current everything, which is by far the most relevant data set our form is fine. Fine form and not even in the relegation zone. So I don't see us having any fears of relegation.
If the concern is we will get WORSE as this season progresses just as we did last season and we're projecting last year's dip onto this year then ok yes I can see that argument. I just think it's a bit of a stretch to think like that. I think he first games were a perfect storm of luck. He's been generally shite since then but has become less shite and this season against all the odds with injuries etc has served up generally fairly consistent comfortable mid-table form that I don't think is going to drop much.
by Millsy » 24 Nov 2021 17:58
Snowflake RoyalMillsySnowflake Royal Take a look at our form since Xmas, almost a year. It's not cherry picking small numbers unless it's claiming performance is ok based on a run of 5 wins in 6 games.
When we talk about Xmas to Xmas of course we're not and that's fine and wouldn't provoke my response.
But I was responding to this:Snowflake Royal What about 4 points from 7 games?
Our form, for two runs of a decent amount, has been sub relegation form.
This is what I was getting at.
This is a discussion about our chances of relegation this season.
If we want to bring in last season then that's a whole different discussion, where I remind you that our clashes here were repeatedly me saying the form was dreadful since the beginning lucky few so he should go, but you and almost everyone here defended him based on the first 7 games. That's fine, but that's in the past.
Right now, this season, with the current situation, the current players, the current league, the current oppostion i.e. what ACTUALLY matters right now, we have to look at the whole season thus far and currently it shows comfortable midtable form. Cherry picking "4 points from 7 games" is not useful... and arbitrarily choosing to cherry pick the poor end of last season (when last season you were choosing the first few games instead to back your pro-Pauno stance) to append to this season is a bit unfair but yes, acceptable. More games, more data. Fine. It's even more fine then on that basis to extend it to the beginning of last season too so our form is then not just "comfortably midtable" as it is currently but is "outside playoffs/upper mid".
See, we can cherry pick parts of this or last season all day long to back up whatever view we happen to hold but the facts are with current squad, current league competition, current everything, which is by far the most relevant data set our form is fine. Fine form and not even in the relegation zone. So I don't see us having any fears of relegation.
If the concern is we will get WORSE as this season progresses just as we did last season and we're projecting last year's dip onto this year then ok yes I can see that argument. I just think it's a bit of a stretch to think like that. I think he first games were a perfect storm of luck. He's been generally shite since then but has become less shite and this season against all the odds with injuries etc has served up generally fairly consistent comfortable mid-table form that I don't think is going to drop much.
Even then the good form is still the cherry picking. 5 wins in 6 vs 2 wins and 2 draws 13. Either side.
Apart from the occasional aberrant purple patch we're a side looking like relegation fodder.
What that tells us is we have potential and quality, but its being consistently misused and misapplied.
Our form doesn’t lie. It dogshite. And everything you try to argue otherwise is massive straw clutching and cherry picking.
by Snowflake Royal » 24 Nov 2021 18:03
by Millsy » 24 Nov 2021 18:32
by SCIAG » 24 Nov 2021 18:33
MillsySnowflake RoyalMillsy
When we talk about Xmas to Xmas of course we're not and that's fine and wouldn't provoke my response.
But I was responding to this:
This is what I was getting at.
This is a discussion about our chances of relegation this season.
If we want to bring in last season then that's a whole different discussion, where I remind you that our clashes here were repeatedly me saying the form was dreadful since the beginning lucky few so he should go, but you and almost everyone here defended him based on the first 7 games. That's fine, but that's in the past.
Right now, this season, with the current situation, the current players, the current league, the current oppostion i.e. what ACTUALLY matters right now, we have to look at the whole season thus far and currently it shows comfortable midtable form. Cherry picking "4 points from 7 games" is not useful... and arbitrarily choosing to cherry pick the poor end of last season (when last season you were choosing the first few games instead to back your pro-Pauno stance) to append to this season is a bit unfair but yes, acceptable. More games, more data. Fine. It's even more fine then on that basis to extend it to the beginning of last season too so our form is then not just "comfortably midtable" as it is currently but is "outside playoffs/upper mid".
See, we can cherry pick parts of this or last season all day long to back up whatever view we happen to hold but the facts are with current squad, current league competition, current everything, which is by far the most relevant data set our form is fine. Fine form and not even in the relegation zone. So I don't see us having any fears of relegation.
If the concern is we will get WORSE as this season progresses just as we did last season and we're projecting last year's dip onto this year then ok yes I can see that argument. I just think it's a bit of a stretch to think like that. I think he first games were a perfect storm of luck. He's been generally shite since then but has become less shite and this season against all the odds with injuries etc has served up generally fairly consistent comfortable mid-table form that I don't think is going to drop much.
Even then the good form is still the cherry picking. 5 wins in 6 vs 2 wins and 2 draws 13. Either side.
Apart from the occasional aberrant purple patch we're a side looking like relegation fodder.
What that tells us is we have potential and quality, but its being consistently misused and misapplied.
Our form doesn’t lie. It dogshite. And everything you try to argue otherwise is massive straw clutching and cherry picking.
To reiterate...
I'm looking at the ENTIRE SEASON SO FAR. How the hell is that cherry picking?
The stats of the ENTIRE SEASON SO FAR are that we are sat comfortably mid-table.
It's the most relevant time patch as it's THIS season, with THESE players, in THIS set of teams in THIS league that we are talking about. The only other thing we could legitimately do (but FAR FAR less relevant) is bring in the WHOLE of last season. Part of this season, or part of last season and all of this, is just... urgh... I won't regurgitate what I wrote above.
Whether we are relegation fodder with the occasional aberrant purple patch, or a playoff-worthy team hit with misfortune/ridiculous injuries of course we don't know which is why I'm looking at the whole season thus far, warts and all. You're right, who knows which bit is aberrant? Is any bit aberrant at all or is it just different phases of what we can/can't will/won't continue to do? Don't know.
Remember whom you're talking to btw and last season's discussions - I'd LOVE to be proven right that Pauno is shit and will take us down, that the form of last season bar the first few games was our true form and that our first few were the "aberrant purple patch", something you and most of HNA didn't agree with. I'd love to gloat. So I have every reason to cherry pick, which is why I'm refusing to and can't say fairer than let's look at what these guys have done over the course of this season so far.
Remember just because I happen to think we won't be relegated doesn't necessarily mean I am pro-Pauno because arguably we shoudl be doing better especially if what you're saying is true about misused and misapplied. I'm definitely open to that. I'm just saying that "warts and all" "misused and misapplied" or not, however good or bad Pauno is.. I don't understand how we can look at the whole of this season which sees us comfortably midtable ON FORM and extrapolate that from a SAFE current position we're going to go on and get relegated.
Will be interested to bring this thread up come the end of the season to see which of us was right. We both hope it's me I'm sure!
by Zip » 24 Nov 2021 18:57
Millsy It's this sort of cherry-picking small numbers of games that causes understandable anxiety and I do hear the arguments. I'm no Pauno-defender as last season we were debating the other way.
It also works the other way when we win a couple on the bounce and we think we're world beaters and Pauno is God.
A more sensible and sane approach is obviously to look at the wider picture, which is always worth more statistically and common sensically. The undeniable fact is that our form THIS SEASON THUS FAR has been comfortably midtable. Smoothing out all the ups, all the downs, the period without his chosen players, the period with all players fit and hitting form, and the longer period of utter desperation with injuries and playing people out of position and noone on the bench. All in all, warts and all, all that shit has given us a form of comfortable mid-table.
Yes with the deduction things look a bit scary but we are still that "comfortable mid-table" team and nothing has got worse. If anything it can only look better with players returning from injury slowly and with Carroll with us for the time being.
Whatever criticisms we throw at Pauno have been the case for months - I've been shovelling these criticisms at him non-stop since last season and called for him to be sacked until very recently. I don't see anything that has suddenly made him even shitter as a manager. If anything he's given me a fair bit of hope and seems to have learned a couple of things, playing 442 to chase games for example, bringing in a striker etc.
I see absolutely no reason to panic now any more than we should have done mid-last season where I seemed to be I think one of the only three here who were.
Currently not in a relagation spot, but a team playing generally midtable form. That = not ending up in a relegation spot at the end fo the season.
by Millsy » 24 Nov 2021 20:40
ZipMillsy It's this sort of cherry-picking small numbers of games that causes understandable anxiety and I do hear the arguments. I'm no Pauno-defender as last season we were debating the other way.
It also works the other way when we win a couple on the bounce and we think we're world beaters and Pauno is God.
A more sensible and sane approach is obviously to look at the wider picture, which is always worth more statistically and common sensically. The undeniable fact is that our form THIS SEASON THUS FAR has been comfortably midtable. Smoothing out all the ups, all the downs, the period without his chosen players, the period with all players fit and hitting form, and the longer period of utter desperation with injuries and playing people out of position and noone on the bench. All in all, warts and all, all that shit has given us a form of comfortable mid-table.
Yes with the deduction things look a bit scary but we are still that "comfortable mid-table" team and nothing has got worse. If anything it can only look better with players returning from injury slowly and with Carroll with us for the time being.
Whatever criticisms we throw at Pauno have been the case for months - I've been shovelling these criticisms at him non-stop since last season and called for him to be sacked until very recently. I don't see anything that has suddenly made him even shitter as a manager. If anything he's given me a fair bit of hope and seems to have learned a couple of things, playing 442 to chase games for example, bringing in a striker etc.
I see absolutely no reason to panic now any more than we should have done mid-last season where I seemed to be I think one of the only three here who were.
Currently not in a relagation spot, but a team playing generally midtable form. That = not ending up in a relegation spot at the end fo the season.
Our form this season thus far has been nothing like comfortable mid table. Add back on the six points we were deducted and we would be 18/19th depending upon results tonight. That is not comfortable mid table. Nothing like.
by Millsy » 24 Nov 2021 20:48
Snowflake Royal Lots of words. Ignoring trends and possible anomalies, direction of travel...
There's a reason form is broken into 5/6 and 10/12 game runs rather than just looked at as the whole season to date. It's because looking at the whole season to date tells you nothing about those things above.
by royalp-we » 24 Nov 2021 20:59
by oldebiscuit » 24 Nov 2021 21:14
royalp-we Down to 21st as it stands. Even with 6pts - we would be 19th.
We looked devoid of anything resembling a team last night. In our anniversary season.
I wish I was angry. But we have a decent squad on paper. I just feel pity.
by Lower West » 24 Nov 2021 22:25
by oldebiscuit » 26 Nov 2021 21:55
Lower West Without the points deduction Derby would themselves have 22 points. Only conceded 18 goals against our 30. Form wise expect them to surpass us by the end of the season.
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