Bowen Out.

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Re: Bowen Out.

by Hound » 22 Feb 2020 08:07

URZZZZ
Stranded
Hound WBA away is actually our best performance of the season imo

Thought we could have been onto something really good at the time


It was up there but IIRC we also got pretty lucky that a penalty wasn't awarded 5 mins in which could have made for a very different game.


Yeah, agreed. Thought it was a stonewall penalty at the time and still think it should have been given

It was a good battling performance but rather ruined by our tendency to hide in our defensive shell, which they inevitably capitalised on


Mind you their penalty they capitalised on was every bit as dodgy a decision as the one they didn’t get

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Re: Bowen Out.

by Vision » 22 Feb 2020 09:04

muirinho
Hound
Its not a case of having sympathy or shedding tears.

Its simply a) making usable players unusable (esp Baldock who we really could have used early doors), and b) upsetting the squad. Obviously b) is more difficult to make judgement on, but it certainly wouldn't have helped having 2 popular players (Swift went on hols with Gunter for example) and one who seems to be rated in the squad, made to train with the u23s


Yes, not just making the players unusable, but making them in effect worth nothing financially either. Why should clubs pay a transfer fee or wages for a Reading player who Reading have made absolutely clear they aren't going to play? If you just want them out of the dressing-room, you pay their salary, so they'll go elsewhere to play. But Reading, under Gomes, wouldn't take the financial hit - why should the players or other clubs pay it instead?


Replying to both of you here

Except ;-

"paying them off" doesn't help you with the FFP restrictions we were under when these decisions were being made. IE prior to the magical new income stream late August. No doubt being paid off was exactly what Gunter and McCleary were hanging out for.

Even then there clearly was a possible pathway back under exceptional circumstances. Baldock went on the pre-season tour and was part of the early matchday squads. Wasn't it widely reported that 1 if not both McCleary & Gunter were asked to go on the tour but refused.

Backroom staff resource is also important. The reason managers often want leaner squads is because they can focus more time with individuals. I've made this point before but it often seems to be the case the bigger the squad the more injuries to key players you seem to get. Again resources being overly stretched perhaps?

Swift played well early season under Gomes so Gunter's treatment didn't seem to effect him unduly however friendly they might be.

Gunter/McCleary?Baldock are all very well known within the game. No-one (Gomes included ) ever mentioned them being rotten apples. Being excluded from the 1st team squad won't have made suitors think again. A transfer fee for any of those 3 was never likely to be a thing. A permanent transfer also unlikely so a Loan deal as always going to be the most likely solution. And offers were made which both Gunter and McCleary turned down.

Ultimately we're never know what would have happened had they been included within the squad and it certainly didn't work out in the end for Gomes but I can totally see why those decisions were made particularly at the time they were taken.

Much as I understand the reasons for Gomes making his choices , equally I understand why Bowen having only been given 6 months (and a side in the relegation zone) made the decisions he did. However by integrating those 3 (whose peak playing years had already gone ) you could argue we lost promising , developing players such as Howe/Barrett and to all intents and purposes Loader.

People still bemoan losing Fosu/Stacey/Dickie as poor long term management yet didn't we finish 3rd and a penalty shoot out away from promotion the season they left?

Just my take on it. Enjoyed the discussion gents.

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Re: Bowen Out.

by Hound » 22 Feb 2020 13:35

Yep, thanks for the responses Vision, likewise

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Old Man Andrews
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Re: Bowen Out.

by Old Man Andrews » 22 Feb 2020 13:42

Love how Vision is treated as some sort of football guru. Never fails to amuse me. :lol:

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leon
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Re: Bowen Out.

by leon » 22 Feb 2020 13:46

Old Man Andrews Love how Vision is treated as some sort of football guru. Never fails to amuse me. :lol:


That’s because he’s courteous and intelligent. Doesn’t resort to accusing other posters of not being a football fan or not knowing anything about football. Or trolling the board with dull shit about other clubs.

That sort of thing.


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Re: Bowen Out.

by Old Man Andrews » 22 Feb 2020 13:47

leon
Old Man Andrews Love how Vision is treated as some sort of football guru. Never fails to amuse me. :lol:


That’s because he’s courteous and intelligent. Doesn’t resort to accusing other posters of not being a football fan or not knowing anything about football. Or trolling the board with dull shit about other clubs.

That sort of thing.

You don't even think Leeds away is a big game. I wouldn't discuss intelligence if I were you.

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Re: Bowen Out.

by leon » 22 Feb 2020 13:51

Old Man Andrews
leon
Old Man Andrews Love how Vision is treated as some sort of football guru. Never fails to amuse me. :lol:


That’s because he’s courteous and intelligent. Doesn’t resort to accusing other posters of not being a football fan or not knowing anything about football. Or trolling the board with dull shit about other clubs.

That sort of thing.

You don't even think Leeds away is a big game. I wouldn't discuss intelligence if I were you.


You’re pretty desperate for attention aren’t you?

It’s pitiful.

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Re: Bowen Out.

by Old Man Andrews » 22 Feb 2020 13:52

leon
Old Man Andrews
leon
That’s because he’s courteous and intelligent. Doesn’t resort to accusing other posters of not being a football fan or not knowing anything about football. Or trolling the board with dull shit about other clubs.

That sort of thing.

You don't even think Leeds away is a big game. I wouldn't discuss intelligence if I were you.


You’re pretty desperate for attention aren’t you?

It’s pitiful.

No I'm discussing Leeds v Reading which is today at 3pm, try and join in with the discussion rather than attacking my opinions.

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leon
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Re: Bowen Out.

by leon » 22 Feb 2020 14:20

Old Man Andrews
leon
Old Man Andrews You don't even think Leeds away is a big game. I wouldn't discuss intelligence if I were you.


You’re pretty desperate for attention aren’t you?

It’s pitiful.

No I'm discussing Leeds v Reading which is today at 3pm, try and join in with the discussion rather than attacking my opinions.


You’re the victim now?

Pathetic.


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Re: Bowen Out.

by Old Man Andrews » 22 Feb 2020 14:23

leon
Old Man Andrews
leon
You’re pretty desperate for attention aren’t you?

It’s pitiful.

No I'm discussing Leeds v Reading which is today at 3pm, try and join in with the discussion rather than attacking my opinions.


You’re the victim now?

Pathetic.

I always am. Nasty, old men like you trying to pick on opinions you don't like. I'm entitled to talk about my team, don't like it then don't reply.

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Re: Bowen Out.

by From Despair To Where? » 22 Feb 2020 14:40

"Miss, Leon's calling me names"

Why is he doing that?

"Because I called him a thick pcunt"

:roll: :roll: :roll:

In tribute to Roy Walker, just saying what I see.

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Re: Bowen Out.

by One Beer is never enough. » 22 Feb 2020 17:19

So what is Bowen's ppg since he got the contract extention...

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Re: Bowen Out.

by windermereROYAL » 22 Feb 2020 18:14

One Beer is never enough. So what is Bowen's ppg since he got the contract extention...


7 points from 9 games W1 D4 L4. but it was always going to be difficult. it will get better now we`ve got some friendlier fixtures coming up.


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Re: Bowen Out.

by Hound » 22 Feb 2020 18:15

Old Man Andrews Love how Vision is treated as some sort of football guru. Never fails to amuse me. :lol:


Not really. Just a courteous disagreement where you accept each other’s opinions

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Re: Bowen Out.

by Snowflake Royal » 22 Feb 2020 18:47

Vision
muirinho
Hound
Its not a case of having sympathy or shedding tears.

Its simply a) making usable players unusable (esp Baldock who we really could have used early doors), and b) upsetting the squad. Obviously b) is more difficult to make judgement on, but it certainly wouldn't have helped having 2 popular players (Swift went on hols with Gunter for example) and one who seems to be rated in the squad, made to train with the u23s


Yes, not just making the players unusable, but making them in effect worth nothing financially either. Why should clubs pay a transfer fee or wages for a Reading player who Reading have made absolutely clear they aren't going to play? If you just want them out of the dressing-room, you pay their salary, so they'll go elsewhere to play. But Reading, under Gomes, wouldn't take the financial hit - why should the players or other clubs pay it instead?


Replying to both of you here

Except ;-

"paying them off" doesn't help you with the FFP restrictions we were under when these decisions were being made. IE prior to the magical new income stream late August. No doubt being paid off was exactly what Gunter and McCleary were hanging out for.

Even then there clearly was a possible pathway back under exceptional circumstances. Baldock went on the pre-season tour and was part of the early matchday squads. Wasn't it widely reported that 1 if not both McCleary & Gunter were asked to go on the tour but refused.

Backroom staff resource is also important. The reason managers often want leaner squads is because they can focus more time with individuals. I've made this point before but it often seems to be the case the bigger the squad the more injuries to key players you seem to get. Again resources being overly stretched perhaps?

Swift played well early season under Gomes so Gunter's treatment didn't seem to effect him unduly however friendly they might be.

Gunter/McCleary?Baldock are all very well known within the game. No-one (Gomes included ) ever mentioned them being rotten apples. Being excluded from the 1st team squad won't have made suitors think again. A transfer fee for any of those 3 was never likely to be a thing. A permanent transfer also unlikely so a Loan deal as always going to be the most likely solution. And offers were made which both Gunter and McCleary turned down.

Ultimately we're never know what would have happened had they been included within the squad and it certainly didn't work out in the end for Gomes but I can totally see why those decisions were made particularly at the time they were taken.

Much as I understand the reasons for Gomes making his choices , equally I understand why Bowen having only been given 6 months (and a side in the relegation zone) made the decisions he did. However by integrating those 3 (whose peak playing years had already gone ) you could argue we lost promising , developing players such as Howe/Barrett and to all intents and purposes Loader.

People still bemoan losing Fosu/Stacey/Dickie as poor long term management yet didn't we finish 3rd and a penalty shoot out away from promotion the season they left?

Just my take on it. Enjoyed the discussion gents.

Rare occasion I don't completely agree with you, but always good to hear your thoughts and see genuinely good mannered intelligent discussion.

I don't think any of us are far from each other.

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Re: Bowen Out.

by Lower West » 22 Feb 2020 19:08

Vision you could argue we lost promising , developing players such as Howe/Barrett and to all intents and purposes Loader.



Barrett's overall game isn't enough.

Howe is far from the finished article,

Loader probably has had his head turned.

To seriously challenge in the top half of the Championship. Only so many passengers you can carry in the squad (Meite, Richards, Olise spring to mind). Championship is becoming a premier league 2, with a real gulf to league one. There's wealthy owners all with the aim of getting PL football in the Championship. Luton were by far the best team in league one last season. Look at them this. Likewise Rotherham may well return for the umpteenth time.

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Re: Bowen Out.

by One Beer is never enough. » 22 Feb 2020 20:09

windermereROYAL
One Beer is never enough. So what is Bowen's ppg since he got the contract extention...


7 points from 9 games W1 D4 L4. but it was always going to be difficult. it will get better now we`ve got some friendlier fixtures coming up.


So not very good then...

But he's still the messiah. No one has said that the points he gained prior to signing the contract were against lesser teams...

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Re: Bowen Out.

by muirinho » 22 Feb 2020 21:35

Vision
muirinho
Hound
Its not a case of having sympathy or shedding tears.

Its simply a) making usable players unusable (esp Baldock who we really could have used early doors), and b) upsetting the squad. Obviously b) is more difficult to make judgement on, but it certainly wouldn't have helped having 2 popular players (Swift went on hols with Gunter for example) and one who seems to be rated in the squad, made to train with the u23s


Yes, not just making the players unusable, but making them in effect worth nothing financially either. Why should clubs pay a transfer fee or wages for a Reading player who Reading have made absolutely clear they aren't going to play? If you just want them out of the dressing-room, you pay their salary, so they'll go elsewhere to play. But Reading, under Gomes, wouldn't take the financial hit - why should the players or other clubs pay it instead?


Replying to both of you here

Except ;-

"paying them off" doesn't help you with the FFP restrictions we were under when these decisions were being made. IE prior to the magical new income stream late August. No doubt being paid off was exactly what Gunter and McCleary were hanging out for.

Even then there clearly was a possible pathway back under exceptional circumstances. Baldock went on the pre-season tour and was part of the early matchday squads. Wasn't it widely reported that 1 if not both McCleary & Gunter were asked to go on the tour but refused.

Backroom staff resource is also important. The reason managers often want leaner squads is because they can focus more time with individuals. I've made this point before but it often seems to be the case the bigger the squad the more injuries to key players you seem to get. Again resources being overly stretched perhaps?

Swift played well early season under Gomes so Gunter's treatment didn't seem to effect him unduly however friendly they might be.

Gunter/McCleary?Baldock are all very well known within the game. No-one (Gomes included ) ever mentioned them being rotten apples. Being excluded from the 1st team squad won't have made suitors think again. A transfer fee for any of those 3 was never likely to be a thing. A permanent transfer also unlikely so a Loan deal as always going to be the most likely solution. And offers were made which both Gunter and McCleary turned down.

Ultimately we're never know what would have happened had they been included within the squad and it certainly didn't work out in the end for Gomes but I can totally see why those decisions were made particularly at the time they were taken.

Much as I understand the reasons for Gomes making his choices , equally I understand why Bowen having only been given 6 months (and a side in the relegation zone) made the decisions he did. However by integrating those 3 (whose peak playing years had already gone ) you could argue we lost promising , developing players such as Howe/Barrett and to all intents and purposes Loader.

People still bemoan losing Fosu/Stacey/Dickie as poor long term management yet didn't we finish 3rd and a penalty shoot out away from promotion the season they left?

Just my take on it. Enjoyed the discussion gents.


Reasonable points - however
* FFP thing - if it hadn't been so widely known that the rejects were excluded from the squad, (a) other teams may well have been more inclined to stump up money, either to purchase or to pay loan salaries, and (b) the players might have been more inclined to go along with whatever was arranged without insisting on full salary, if they didn't thought the club was being fair to them. McCleary, in particular, came across as a bit bitter about the thing, I got the impression he wouldn't have pissed on Gomes to put out a fire by the time he left
* Loader has been given loads of chances, and spurned them all - thirty-something games with just 2 goals to show for it.
Howe didn't even get to play when Gunter was out of favour, he's only played under Bowen, however Bowen didn't rate him that highly after those games or he wouldn't have been sold - so I reckon if Gunter hadn't been around possibly another player would have been loaned in to cover Yiadom's injury. If anything, Howe could really have benefitted from a loan, which would have been feasible if Gunter had been in the squad from the start.
Josh Barrett has been around for ages without breaking through, I think that's down to him, not McCleary.
So I don't think those players are on the verge of leaving because of the three amigos, it's because they haven't shown enough to make them worth persisting with in a situation where the manager must win games.

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Re: Bowen Out.

by Zip » 22 Feb 2020 21:57

Vision
muirinho
Hound
Its not a case of having sympathy or shedding tears.

Its simply a) making usable players unusable (esp Baldock who we really could have used early doors), and b) upsetting the squad. Obviously b) is more difficult to make judgement on, but it certainly wouldn't have helped having 2 popular players (Swift went on hols with Gunter for example) and one who seems to be rated in the squad, made to train with the u23s


Yes, not just making the players unusable, but making them in effect worth nothing financially either. Why should clubs pay a transfer fee or wages for a Reading player who Reading have made absolutely clear they aren't going to play? If you just want them out of the dressing-room, you pay their salary, so they'll go elsewhere to play. But Reading, under Gomes, wouldn't take the financial hit - why should the players or other clubs pay it instead?


Replying to both of you here

Except ;-

"paying them off" doesn't help you with the FFP restrictions we were under when these decisions were being made. IE prior to the magical new income stream late August. No doubt being paid off was exactly what Gunter and McCleary were hanging out for.

Even then there clearly was a possible pathway back under exceptional circumstances. Baldock went on the pre-season tour and was part of the early matchday squads. Wasn't it widely reported that 1 if not both McCleary & Gunter were asked to go on the tour but refused.

Backroom staff resource is also important. The reason managers often want leaner squads is because they can focus more time with individuals. I've made this point before but it often seems to be the case the bigger the squad the more injuries to key players you seem to get. Again resources being overly stretched perhaps?

Swift played well early season under Gomes so Gunter's treatment didn't seem to effect him unduly however friendly they might be.

Gunter/McCleary?Baldock are all very well known within the game. No-one (Gomes included ) ever mentioned them being rotten apples. Being excluded from the 1st team squad won't have made suitors think again. A transfer fee for any of those 3 was never likely to be a thing. A permanent transfer also unlikely so a Loan deal as always going to be the most likely solution. And offers were made which both Gunter and McCleary turned down.

Ultimately we're never know what would have happened had they been included within the squad and it certainly didn't work out in the end for Gomes but I can totally see why those decisions were made particularly at the time they were taken.

Much as I understand the reasons for Gomes making his choices , equally I understand why Bowen having only been given 6 months (and a side in the relegation zone) made the decisions he did. However by integrating those 3 (whose peak playing years had already gone ) you could argue we lost promising , developing players such as Howe/Barrett and to all intents and purposes Loader.

People still bemoan losing Fosu/Stacey/Dickie as poor long term management yet didn't we finish 3rd and a penalty shoot out away from promotion the season they left?

Just my take on it. Enjoyed the discussion gents.


Of the youngsters you mention Loader would be leaving regardless of whether he were in the side imo. He wanted out in August and that doesn’t seem to have changed.
Yes we lost Howe. Bowen chose Gunter ahead of him. Only time will tell whether that was a mistake.
I liked Barrett but was never convinced he would cut it at this level

I disliked what Gomes did with Gunter and McCleary. They were our two most senior pros and longest serving players. They are known for their professionalism. They even had to make their own way for the team photo. Just not necessary.

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Re: Bowen Out.

by Snowflake Royal » 22 Feb 2020 22:17

One Beer is never enough.
windermereROYAL
One Beer is never enough. So what is Bowen's ppg since he got the contract extention...


7 points from 9 games W1 D4 L4. but it was always going to be difficult. it will get better now we`ve got some friendlier fixtures coming up.


So not very good then...

But he's still the messiah. No one has said that the points he gained prior to signing the contract were against lesser teams...

No one is saying he's a messiah.


What he is, is an excellent coach, doing a good managerial job. Which is better than we've had in quite a while.

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