Finance

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Re: Finance

by Hound » 08 Apr 2020 14:28

NewCorkSeth
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NewCorkSeth So, should we be selling and looking to use Holsgrove, Odimayo, Burley, House, Holmes, Smith, East, Watson, Osho, Southwood, CBC et al?

Because its easy to say in hindsight we should have used all those academy players.


We've used the academy lads fairly well this year. But absolutely we should be using Olise, McIntyre, Southwood, Andresson and possibly Osho. Most of the others aren't up to it from what I've seen (CBC and Holsgrove looked decent tbf), but then you keep an eye on Nevers, Dorsett etc

I agree we have done well this season with utlising our academy. Largely helped by Olise being a star. But my point in large was its easy to say a deal is bad 2 years down the line. How will we know who will become the next big regret? I mean, Watson isnt highly rated. If he goes on to succeed how many on here will say "we should have used him instead of buy xyz"


well we don't but you'd hope the coaching staff and scouts would have a fair idea

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Re: Finance

by WestYorksRoyal » 08 Apr 2020 14:34

NewCorkSeth
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NewCorkSeth So, should we be selling and looking to use Holsgrove, Odimayo, Burley, House, Holmes, Smith, East, Watson, Osho, Southwood, CBC et al?

Because its easy to say in hindsight we should have used all those academy players.


We've used the academy lads fairly well this year. But absolutely we should be using Olise, McIntyre, Southwood, Andresson and possibly Osho. Most of the others aren't up to it from what I've seen (CBC and Holsgrove looked decent tbf), but then you keep an eye on Nevers, Dorsett etc

I agree we have done well this season with utlising our academy. Largely helped by Olise being a star. But my point in large was its easy to say a deal is bad 2 years down the line. How will we know who will become the next big regret? I mean, Watson isnt highly rated. If he goes on to succeed how many on here will say "we should have used him instead of buy xyz"

Watson was behind Howe, who was younger than him. With Howe and Barrett, I think there's a good chance that they could develop after leaving us. But that doesn't equate to a bad decision. With Barrett, we were clear with the view that he wasn't ready and needed to improve his fitness and work rate, which Bristol Rovers have incidentally discovered at a lower level. He could fix this and become a good Championship player. Similarly Howe knew he was behind Yiadom and wanted a chance to get first team football. It made sense from our view as Yiadom is one of our best players, and when he was injured Gunter was chosen ahead of Howe.

These sales are akin to Antonio. He has had a very good career, but he was nowhere near our team when we sold him. If we'd held on to him, he wouldn't have developed with the playing time we could offer him.

But it seems like the class of 2014 or so never got the same chance or thought process. Particularly Cooper, who had done alright for us and was shipped out without a chance under Stam. And Fosu, who showed flashes of what he was capable of and then shown the door.

It's a very hard balance knowing when a player is ready, how much time to give them and when to cut losses. But it seems like we got it wrong for several years.

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Re: Finance

by Greatwesternline » 08 Apr 2020 15:34

When we spunked all that money on Ejaria and Puskas i said it was mental and that we couldnt afford it. A number of people said i was being a killjoy and should just learn to enjoy football as a releif.

Some of those same people now have a 6 page thread on how the finances are screwed. Anyone cheering on those signings in the Summer must have known this was coming. Why is there so much surprise now? We went from making a massive loss,and not buying players, to within the same Summer splurging on 2 signings from Liverpool and Inter Milan respectively. Did people think players leave clubs like Liverpool and Inter Milan unless a lot of money is thrown at them?

Many people who cheered on Reading's CRAZY spending last year criticise Pompey fans for their overspending but are completely blinded by their own club doing it.

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Re: Finance

by One87One » 08 Apr 2020 15:44

^^^ this.

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Re: Finance

by Hound » 08 Apr 2020 15:47

Greatwesternline When we spunked all that money on Ejaria and Puskas i said it was mental and that we couldnt afford it. A number of people said i was being a killjoy and should just learn to enjoy football as a releif.

Some of those same people now have a 6 page thread on how the finances are screwed. Anyone cheering on those signings in the Summer must have known this was coming. Why is there so much surprise now? We went from making a massive loss,and not buying players, to within the same Summer splurging on 2 signings from Liverpool and Inter Milan respectively. Did people think players leave clubs like Liverpool and Inter Milan unless a lot of money is thrown at them?

Many people who cheered on Reading's CRAZY spending last year criticise Pompey fans for their overspending but are completely blinded by their own club doing it.


Weirdly I dont remember loads of people saying we should spend a lot of money. I do remember lots of surprise and concern that we'd found the money to do it, and were very confused by it all

Anyway, Puscas and Ejaria prob have decent sell on value. Joao to a lesser extent. They were no Aluko/Mannone's


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Re: Finance

by Hendo » 08 Apr 2020 15:51

Greatwesternline When we spunked all that money on Ejaria and Puskas i said it was mental and that we couldnt afford it. A number of people said i was being a killjoy and should just learn to enjoy football as a releif.

Some of those same people now have a 6 page thread on how the finances are screwed. Anyone cheering on those signings in the Summer must have known this was coming. Why is there so much surprise now? We went from making a massive loss,and not buying players, to within the same Summer splurging on 2 signings from Liverpool and Inter Milan respectively. Did people think players leave clubs like Liverpool and Inter Milan unless a lot of money is thrown at them?

Many people who cheered on Reading's CRAZY spending last year criticise Pompey fans for their overspending but are completely blinded by their own club doing it.


When you say spunked and splurging, it sounds like you are labelling Ejaria and Puscas as failed signings, which is far from the case. These signings are obviously an investment and based on the performances this year (and last for Ovie) I'd say that it is money well spent, I'd certainly rather spend what we did on Puscas than someone like Jordan Rhodes, and Ovie at £3.5m is a snip to what he is actually worth. If Reading wanted to, we could sell him for a decent amount of money.

Also worth remembering that we were under a soft embargo by The FA, which was then released, it must've been released for a reason. We might've even passed those details onto them for review before completion.

Also, also, as Ovie is on loan until the end of the season, I doubt the money will be transferred to Liverpool until the season is finished and he becomes our player so I doubt there is much cost associated with this season, I'd also find it hard to believe that we paid £7m upfront for Puscas, I'd expect it to be £7m over the course of a number of years or heavily performance related.

In terms of player wages? I doubt they are on much more than what we are paying on an average anyway and if you minus Aluko's wages and possibly Barrow's wages (with both of them going out on loan), then there is your gap.

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Re: Finance

by Snowflake Royal » 08 Apr 2020 16:03

Hound
NewCorkSeth
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We've used the academy lads fairly well this year. But absolutely we should be using Olise, McIntyre, Southwood, Andresson and possibly Osho. Most of the others aren't up to it from what I've seen (CBC and Holsgrove looked decent tbf), but then you keep an eye on Nevers, Dorsett etc

I agree we have done well this season with utlising our academy. Largely helped by Olise being a star. But my point in large was its easy to say a deal is bad 2 years down the line. How will we know who will become the next big regret? I mean, Watson isnt highly rated. If he goes on to succeed how many on here will say "we should have used him instead of buy xyz"


well we don't but you'd hope the coaching staff and scouts would have a fair idea

Some of us were saying it at the time.

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Re: Finance

by Snowflake Royal » 08 Apr 2020 16:05

Hendo
Greatwesternline When we spunked all that money on Ejaria and Puskas i said it was mental and that we couldnt afford it. A number of people said i was being a killjoy and should just learn to enjoy football as a releif.

Some of those same people now have a 6 page thread on how the finances are screwed. Anyone cheering on those signings in the Summer must have known this was coming. Why is there so much surprise now? We went from making a massive loss,and not buying players, to within the same Summer splurging on 2 signings from Liverpool and Inter Milan respectively. Did people think players leave clubs like Liverpool and Inter Milan unless a lot of money is thrown at them?

Many people who cheered on Reading's CRAZY spending last year criticise Pompey fans for their overspending but are completely blinded by their own club doing it.


When you say spunked and splurging, it sounds like you are labelling Ejaria and Puscas as failed signings, which is far from the case. These signings are obviously an investment and based on the performances this year (and last for Ovie) I'd say that it is money well spent, I'd certainly rather spend what we did on Puscas than someone like Jordan Rhodes, and Ovie at £3.5m is a snip to what he is actually worth. If Reading wanted to, we could sell him for a decent amount of money.

Also worth remembering that we were under a soft embargo by The FA, which was then released, it must've been released for a reason. We might've even passed those details onto them for review before completion.

Also, also, as Ovie is on loan until the end of the season, I doubt the money will be transferred to Liverpool until the season is finished and he becomes our player so I doubt there is much cost associated with this season, I'd also find it hard to believe that we paid £7m upfront for Puscas, I'd expect it to be £7m over the course of a number of years or heavily performance related.

In terms of player wages? I doubt they are on much more than what we are paying on an average anyway and if you minus Aluko's wages and possibly Barrow's wages (with both of them going out on loan), then there is your gap.

What gap, the latest accounts show we spent double our income.

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Re: Finance

by Hound » 08 Apr 2020 16:05

Snowflake Royal
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NewCorkSeth I agree we have done well this season with utlising our academy. Largely helped by Olise being a star. But my point in large was its easy to say a deal is bad 2 years down the line. How will we know who will become the next big regret? I mean, Watson isnt highly rated. If he goes on to succeed how many on here will say "we should have used him instead of buy xyz"


well we don't but you'd hope the coaching staff and scouts would have a fair idea

Some of us were saying it at the time.


well yes. But then you also said we should keep Kelly :wink:


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Re: Finance

by Snowflake Royal » 08 Apr 2020 16:06

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well we don't but you'd hope the coaching staff and scouts would have a fair idea

Some of us were saying it at the time.


well yes. But then you also said we should keep Kelly :wink:

He was fine.

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Re: Finance

by Hound » 08 Apr 2020 16:07

Snowflake Royal
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Snowflake Royal Some of us were saying it at the time.


well yes. But then you also said we should keep Kelly :wink:

He was fine.


For a Div2 team, yes

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Re: Finance

by Snowflake Royal » 08 Apr 2020 17:06

Hound
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well yes. But then you also said we should keep Kelly :wink:

He was fine.


For a Div2 team, yes

I agree. In proper old money.

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Re: Finance

by Greatwesternline » 08 Apr 2020 18:25

Hendo
Greatwesternline When we spunked all that money on Ejaria and Puskas i said it was mental and that we couldnt afford it. A number of people said i was being a killjoy and should just learn to enjoy football as a releif.

Some of those same people now have a 6 page thread on how the finances are screwed. Anyone cheering on those signings in the Summer must have known this was coming. Why is there so much surprise now? We went from making a massive loss,and not buying players, to within the same Summer splurging on 2 signings from Liverpool and Inter Milan respectively. Did people think players leave clubs like Liverpool and Inter Milan unless a lot of money is thrown at them?

Many people who cheered on Reading's CRAZY spending last year criticise Pompey fans for their overspending but are completely blinded by their own club doing it.


When you say spunked and splurging, it sounds like you are labelling Ejaria and Puscas as failed signings, which is far from the case. These signings are obviously an investment and based on the performances this year (and last for Ovie) I'd say that it is money well spent, I'd certainly rather spend what we did on Puscas than someone like Jordan Rhodes, and Ovie at £3.5m is a snip to what he is actually worth. If Reading wanted to, we could sell him for a decent amount of money.

Also worth remembering that we were under a soft embargo by The FA, which was then released, it must've been released for a reason. We might've even passed those details onto them for review before completion.

Also, also, as Ovie is on loan until the end of the season, I doubt the money will be transferred to Liverpool until the season is finished and he becomes our player so I doubt there is much cost associated with this season, I'd also find it hard to believe that we paid £7m upfront for Puscas, I'd expect it to be £7m over the course of a number of years or heavily performance related.

In terms of player wages? I doubt they are on much more than what we are paying on an average anyway and if you minus Aluko's wages and possibly Barrow's wages (with both of them going out on loan), then there is your gap.


I'll keep saying it till every one has read it. ACCOUNTS ARE NOT DONE ON A CASH BASIS.

It doesn't matter when you pay another team. If you have loaned their player for 1m and pay that 1m in 10 years. It still hits 1m in the season you loaned him.

Football fair play is not done on a cash basis. It is based on your accounting profit and loss adjusted for allowable expenses.

Reading made a 45 million loss. So we were making an incredible loss before we decided to carry on spending loads and loads of money. It doesn't matter if ejaria and puskas are good. We don't have the money. If someone offers me a ferrari half price, it doesn't mean I can afford it.

We have too many players, and then we decided to buy some more, for more money. There I no reason to think Aluko will be on higher wages than a player signed from inter Milan or Liverpool. Unless you can show me a spreadsheet with each players salary I cannot see any argument that would say ejaria and puskas are not on high salaries. If they're not, they have very bad agents.


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Re: Finance

by Elm Park Kid » 08 Apr 2020 18:59

I would make the following points.

1. The income that most teams can raise from normal Championship football activities is pretty low. Unless you are a 'big club', who can get large attendances and a lot of commercial income, your revenue is going to stay under £20m.

2. It's possible to get promoted on a wage budget around that level (look at sheff utd), but it takes a LOT of things to come together at the right time. Manager, signings, atmosphere at the club. It's not something you can force, no matter how hard you try. There's no magic solution of getting 'good' scouts or buying young or any of these cliches you read on here. If it was that easy then everyone would be doing it.

3. Hence, it's perfectly normal in the league for owners to bankroll their clubs and make large losses. This isn't much of an issue unless the owners are unreliable or you fall fowl of FFP; and even then, no club has really suffered from any FFP decision.

4. Reading's current wage budget is about right for a club that is looking to push for promotion. It's embarrassingly high for a club battling relegation though.

5. So, overall, the amount of money we're losing is about expected for a club with our ambitions, but not our results.

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Re: Finance

by Hound » 08 Apr 2020 19:09

Ejaria was about 25th in line for a game at Liverpool and had just flunked a couple of loan spells. He won’t have been on loads

Aluko joined Fulham from a prem club and likely stayed on a decent wage. Then from the sounds of it he came here as we offered him more on a fat 4 year contract

He’d undoubtedly be on plenty, and I suspect a lot more than Ejaria. Plus he has less than zero sell on potential. In fact we’ll prob pay to get rid of him

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Re: Finance

by Zip » 08 Apr 2020 19:24

I think Fulham were only offering Aluko a one year deal at the time. We chose to offer him four years. Four oxf*rd years.

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Re: Finance

by tmesis » 08 Apr 2020 22:07

Elm Park Kid There's no magic solution of getting 'good' scouts or buying young or any of these cliches you read on here.

It's not easy, but you need to recognise when you are doing it badly, and we are clearly woeful. The suggestions are that we are advised by agents, who will unsurprisingly suggest players on their books, where they'll get a cut.

If it was that easy then everyone would be doing it.

Not necessarily. You need to have a policy of wanting to try to go down that route, rather than going for the "big signings" route that many opt for.

Sure, picking up hungry, undervalued players who want to play, is not easy, but it's something we need to try. Our transfer policy of the last few years has been an utter disaster, and a Bolton style collapse looks on the cards - with nothing to show for it.


I'm still amazed our income is lower than Millwall's though. That really is bad. It hasn't helped that as well as being poor in terms of results, the football has often been terrible in terms of entertainment too. It's little surprise that most of the executive boxes look shut for most games. Who'd want to bring clients to a Reading game?

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Re: Finance

by EverHopeful » 08 Apr 2020 22:44

Greatwesternline
Hendo
Greatwesternline When we spunked all that money on Ejaria and Puskas i said it was mental and that we couldnt afford it. A number of people said i was being a killjoy and should just learn to enjoy football as a releif.

Some of those same people now have a 6 page thread on how the finances are screwed. Anyone cheering on those signings in the Summer must have known this was coming. Why is there so much surprise now? We went from making a massive loss,and not buying players, to within the same Summer splurging on 2 signings from Liverpool and Inter Milan respectively. Did people think players leave clubs like Liverpool and Inter Milan unless a lot of money is thrown at them?

Many people who cheered on Reading's CRAZY spending last year criticise Pompey fans for their overspending but are completely blinded by their own club doing it.


When you say spunked and splurging, it sounds like you are labelling Ejaria and Puscas as failed signings, which is far from the case. These signings are obviously an investment and based on the performances this year (and last for Ovie) I'd say that it is money well spent, I'd certainly rather spend what we did on Puscas than someone like Jordan Rhodes, and Ovie at £3.5m is a snip to what he is actually worth. If Reading wanted to, we could sell him for a decent amount of money.

Also worth remembering that we were under a soft embargo by The FA, which was then released, it must've been released for a reason. We might've even passed those details onto them for review before completion.

Also, also, as Ovie is on loan until the end of the season, I doubt the money will be transferred to Liverpool until the season is finished and he becomes our player so I doubt there is much cost associated with this season, I'd also find it hard to believe that we paid £7m upfront for Puscas, I'd expect it to be £7m over the course of a number of years or heavily performance related.

In terms of player wages? I doubt they are on much more than what we are paying on an average anyway and if you minus Aluko's wages and possibly Barrow's wages (with both of them going out on loan), then there is your gap.


I'll keep saying it till every one has read it. ACCOUNTS ARE NOT DONE ON A CASH BASIS.

It doesn't matter when you pay another team. If you have loaned their player for 1m and pay that 1m in 10 years. It still hits 1m in the season you loaned him.

Football fair play is not done on a cash basis. It is based on your accounting profit and loss adjusted for allowable expenses.

Reading made a 45 million loss. So we were making an incredible loss before we decided to carry on spending loads and loads of money. It doesn't matter if ejaria and puskas are good. We don't have the money. If someone offers me a ferrari half price, it doesn't mean I can afford it.

We have too many players, and then we decided to buy some more, for more money. There I no reason to think Aluko will be on higher wages than a player signed from inter Milan or Liverpool. Unless you can show me a spreadsheet with each players salary I cannot see any argument that would say ejaria and puskas are not on high salaries. If they're not, they have very bad agents.


Accounts are done on a income less expenditure basis but if the contractual spend is deferred over a period of years (Puscas, Ejaria, Jaoa) then they only need to show the commitment within each individual year from a P/L perspective. yes they will need to show the future liability in the balance sheet but this is not what FFP is based on. So Puscas, if it was as much as £7.5M over 5 years is £1.5M pa on an absolutely pure basis which is far more palatable. Was is stupid, who knows? They will have clearly known what 2019 accounts were going to look like before they did it so you probably have to think it was a reasonable investment decision made by them at the price at the time. The problem is now however as whilst the Club would have known what they needed to make (or not lose) in year to 30/6/20 to comply with FFP, with Covid-19, those calculations are completely blown out of the water................but we will not be alone, so these calculations almost have to be relaxed or every club in England will fall foul and be in an embargo and no way of getting out of it by selling players to each other! Europe and the world will be no different...

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Re: Finance

by Greatwesternline » 09 Apr 2020 08:22

EverHopeful
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When you say spunked and splurging, it sounds like you are labelling Ejaria and Puscas as failed signings, which is far from the case. These signings are obviously an investment and based on the performances this year (and last for Ovie) I'd say that it is money well spent, I'd certainly rather spend what we did on Puscas than someone like Jordan Rhodes, and Ovie at £3.5m is a snip to what he is actually worth. If Reading wanted to, we could sell him for a decent amount of money.

Also worth remembering that we were under a soft embargo by The FA, which was then released, it must've been released for a reason. We might've even pass
ed those details onto them for review before completion.

Also, also, as Ovie is on loan until the end of the season, I doubt the money will be transferred to Liverpool until the season is finished and he becomes our player so I doubt there is much cost associated with this season, I'd also find it hard to believe that we paid £7m upfront for Puscas, I'd expect it to be £7m over the course of a number of years or heavily performance related.

In terms of player wages? I doubt they are on much more than what we are paying on an average anyway and if you minus Aluko's wages and possibly Barrow's wages (with both of them going out on loan), then there is your gap.


I'll keep saying it till every one has read it. ACCOUNTS ARE NOT DONE ON A CASH BASIS.

It doesn't matter when you pay another team. If you have loaned their player for 1m and pay that 1m in 10 years. It still hits 1m in the season you loaned him.

Football fair play is not done on a cash basis. It is based on your accounting profit and loss adjusted for allowable expenses.

Reading made a 45 million loss. So we were making an incredible loss before we decided to carry on spending loads and loads of money. It doesn't matter if ejaria and puskas are good. We don't have the money. If someone offers me a ferrari half price, it doesn't mean I can afford it.

We have too many players, and then we decided to buy some more, for more money. There I no reason to think Aluko will be on higher wages than a player signed from inter Milan or Liverpool. Unless you can show me a spreadsheet with each players salary I cannot see any argument that would say ejaria and puskas are not on high salaries. If they're not, they have very bad agents.


Accounts are done on a income less expenditure basis but if the contractual spend is deferred over a period of years (Puscas, Ejaria, Jaoa) then they only need to show the commitment within each individual year from a P/L perspective. yes they will need to show the future liability in the balance sheet but this is not what FFP is based on. So Puscas, if it was as much as £7.5M over 5 years is £1.5M pa on an absolutely pure basis which is far more palatable. Was is stupid, who knows? They will have clearly known what 2019 accounts were going to look like before they did it so you probably have to think it was a reasonable investment decision made by them at the price at the time. The problem is now however as whilst the Club would have known what they needed to make (or not lose) in year to 30/6/20 to comply with FFP, with Covid-19, those calculations are completely blown out of the water................but we will not be alone, so these calculations almost have to be relaxed or every club in England will fall foul and be in an embargo and no way of getting out of it by selling players to each other! Europe and the world will be no different...


No one can use covid as an excuse. We made a 45m loss a year ago.

I'm fully aware you spread the cost of an intangible asset (footballers contract and registration) over the life of the contract. That doesn't stop the big wages.
BTW this 40m loss is for 2018-19.puskas isn't in here. He will show up in 19-20 accounts.

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Re: Finance

by Hound » 09 Apr 2020 08:49

its not an excuse, but the way things are going, it might be a way out of this particular issue

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