by Westwood52 » 23 Feb 2021 10:12
by SCIAG » 23 Feb 2021 10:21
South Coast RoyalSCIAGSouth Coast Royal
It does seem a bit of an age thing over this "tired" business.
Younger posters like Hendo and even Nameless and a few others appear to set great store by modern fixation with performance stats, energy levels, diet, recovery periods etc. having major impact on performance.
Those a bit older tend to think of it as a job where players are expected to be at their peak for 90 minutes or for some weeks 180 minutes in that week , a not unreasonable expectation IMHO, and that maybe they concern themselves too much with whether they are prepared well enough for those battles.
Away from football and taking into account life experience I am convinced that people get tired because they are told that they should feel tired.
I would have thought that the prospect of playing Premier League football would be enough of a carrot to produce optimum levels of performance for a further 18 games over the next 3 months.
If it isn't then some of these may be in the wrong job and lack the desire to succeed, if for nothing else than they become set up for life financially by playing a season or two in the Premier League and have the opportunity to reach the peak of their profession..
BTW just because things are done in a modern way, e.g. rest and recovery, doesn't mean that performance results are automatically going to be better.
Perhaps sometimes there is too much thought and preparation meaning that the sportsmen (not always the brightest) lose sight of what they are there to do, win matches.
Of course with coaching badges etc. the danger is that the coaches are all taught the same things therefore the process of coaching and playing both become stagnant breeding automatons not able to think for themselves when that bit of extra is needed out on the pitch.
Players are definitely fitter than ever before but the product itself hasn't necessarily improved.
Waffle over, as old people do .
Think you’re trying to impose a narrative that isn’t particularly well supported. For one thing people like Nameless and RB are not exactly spring chickens.
You ever watch clips of old games? It’s really quite striking how quickly the quality of play improves. I remember thinking in 2006 how much football had improved as a result of Mourinho coming over, but if you look at matches from 2006 now it’s almost a different sport - no short goal kicks, very little pressing, most teams still playing 4-4-2, possession-based approaches considered a novelty rather than the norm. John Swift is a much more creative and technically gifted player than Steve Sidwell, who was considered the premier midfielder in this league.
I’m very cynical about anyone who claims to understand the motivations of a large group of people. We are much less good at understanding others than we believe ourselves to be. We frequently extrapolate from unrepresentative data points and over-generalise. It’s frankly bizarre to suggest that players forget that they are there to win matches or that they aren’t motivated to play at a higher level. They have competed against thousands to become professional footballers - most of them are driven young men.
Frankly I don’t claim to understand much of sports science, but the impact upon adoption by one club was such that all the others also adopted it to keep up. If sports science didn’t work then clubs wouldn’t waste money on it.
Well, there you go then-football is a different game altogether, sports science is everything and by your own admission YOU haven't got a clue about motivation and according to you nobody outside sport has either.
Fine.
No need to discuss this further as , with your lengthy experience of life you have all the answers-just let me, Norfolk and a few others that have worked and lived a bit longer live in ignorance as you clearly know best, condescension at its best.
BTW so many players are now soft ( the screaching and imploring looks at the ref in a "mum please help me" way when they suffer the mildest of fouls is pathetic, accentuated by no crowds in the stadia and viewers being able to hear everything) but society is soft, life is soft.
My upbringing was harder but my late father would (quite rightly) say that his generational upbringing was harder still.
Oh and , I love the idea that" clubs wouldn't waste money"-really?.
by Norfolk Royal » 23 Feb 2021 10:45
Pepe the HorsemanNorfolk Royal Exactly. Look at a player like Bobby Moore for instance. Apparently a legendary drinker but bested Pele in the heat of Mexico in 1970. Is anyone seriously suggesting he couldn’t play for us if teleported into 2021?
Tbf footballers were pretty shite pre-1992. Reckon I could've bested Pele (probs not after a night out though).
by Norfolk Royal » 23 Feb 2021 10:50
Snowball I don't know if the science has been done for football but in rugby it has.
If you have two rugby players travelling at say, 14-second 100M pace when they collide
they impart a force X which is the two speeds multiplied together
That speed is 11.2 MPH so their COMBINED speed is 125 MPH
If they are running one second faster (13 seconds) their speed is 17.2 MPH each
and their connecting speed is 17.2 x 17.2 = 295 MPH
The point is, even increases in average speed of small amounts have large effects when players collide
Players train harder, drink less, eat better, probably sleep better. They learn how to run faster
and when they collide it is going to hurt more.
Most players play through injuries, carry niggles. if they are getting slightly nastier bangs
and with less days to recover they will be gradually breaking down.
This, for example http://www.andymcgeady.com/the-changing ... -of-rugby/
is not about individual improvements (ie players getting quicker) but it's meaningful
by Pepe the Horseman » 23 Feb 2021 11:00
Norfolk RoyalPepe the HorsemanNorfolk Royal Exactly. Look at a player like Bobby Moore for instance. Apparently a legendary drinker but bested Pele in the heat of Mexico in 1970. Is anyone seriously suggesting he couldn’t play for us if teleported into 2021?
Tbf footballers were pretty shite pre-1992. Reckon I could've bested Pele (probs not after a night out though).
Right. HNA contributor says he's better than Pele, a player most commentators reckon is the best of all time.
by South Coast Royal » 23 Feb 2021 11:19
SCIAGSouth Coast RoyalSCIAG Think you’re trying to impose a narrative that isn’t particularly well supported. For one thing people like Nameless and RB are not exactly spring chickens.
You ever watch clips of old games? It’s really quite striking how quickly the quality of play improves. I remember thinking in 2006 how much football had improved as a result of Mourinho coming over, but if you look at matches from 2006 now it’s almost a different sport - no short goal kicks, very little pressing, most teams still playing 4-4-2, possession-based approaches considered a novelty rather than the norm. John Swift is a much more creative and technically gifted player than Steve Sidwell, who was considered the premier midfielder in this league.
I’m very cynical about anyone who claims to understand the motivations of a large group of people. We are much less good at understanding others than we believe ourselves to be. We frequently extrapolate from unrepresentative data points and over-generalise. It’s frankly bizarre to suggest that players forget that they are there to win matches or that they aren’t motivated to play at a higher level. They have competed against thousands to become professional footballers - most of them are driven young men.
Frankly I don’t claim to understand much of sports science, but the impact upon adoption by one club was such that all the others also adopted it to keep up. If sports science didn’t work then clubs wouldn’t waste money on it.
Well, there you go then-football is a different game altogether, sports science is everything and by your own admission YOU haven't got a clue about motivation and according to you nobody outside sport has either.
Fine.
No need to discuss this further as , with your lengthy experience of life you have all the answers-just let me, Norfolk and a few others that have worked and lived a bit longer live in ignorance as you clearly know best, condescension at its best.
BTW so many players are now soft ( the screaching and imploring looks at the ref in a "mum please help me" way when they suffer the mildest of fouls is pathetic, accentuated by no crowds in the stadia and viewers being able to hear everything) but society is soft, life is soft.
My upbringing was harder but my late father would (quite rightly) say that his generational upbringing was harder still.
Oh and , I love the idea that" clubs wouldn't waste money"-really?.
You’re in no position to lecture people about not being condescending
Lots of people “know things about motivation”, but when you say “the players aren’t motivated” that isn’t the result of any great insight, it’s a thought-terminating cliche.
When you look at our players putting their bodies on the line, running 11km+ per match, playing through serious injuries to the detriment of their health, and claim that “they aren’t motivated” - well, there’s simply no factual basis to it.
Unfortunately, being old doesn’t magically make one’s opinions true. Life doesn’t come with a participation trophy - particularly for your so-far unimpressive age (make it to 80 and we can talk ). If you want to be right then it’s not enough to merely exist - you’ve got to get good at sorting fact from fiction, and that takes effort and application.
by Snowflake Royal » 23 Feb 2021 11:36
SCIAGSouth Coast RoyalSCIAG Think you’re trying to impose a narrative that isn’t particularly well supported. For one thing people like Nameless and RB are not exactly spring chickens.
You ever watch clips of old games? It’s really quite striking how quickly the quality of play improves. I remember thinking in 2006 how much football had improved as a result of Mourinho coming over, but if you look at matches from 2006 now it’s almost a different sport - no short goal kicks, very little pressing, most teams still playing 4-4-2, possession-based approaches considered a novelty rather than the norm. John Swift is a much more creative and technically gifted player than Steve Sidwell, who was considered the premier midfielder in this league.
I’m very cynical about anyone who claims to understand the motivations of a large group of people. We are much less good at understanding others than we believe ourselves to be. We frequently extrapolate from unrepresentative data points and over-generalise. It’s frankly bizarre to suggest that players forget that they are there to win matches or that they aren’t motivated to play at a higher level. They have competed against thousands to become professional footballers - most of them are driven young men.
Frankly I don’t claim to understand much of sports science, but the impact upon adoption by one club was such that all the others also adopted it to keep up. If sports science didn’t work then clubs wouldn’t waste money on it.
Well, there you go then-football is a different game altogether, sports science is everything and by your own admission YOU haven't got a clue about motivation and according to you nobody outside sport has either.
Fine.
No need to discuss this further as , with your lengthy experience of life you have all the answers-just let me, Norfolk and a few others that have worked and lived a bit longer live in ignorance as you clearly know best, condescension at its best.
BTW so many players are now soft ( the screaching and imploring looks at the ref in a "mum please help me" way when they suffer the mildest of fouls is pathetic, accentuated by no crowds in the stadia and viewers being able to hear everything) but society is soft, life is soft.
My upbringing was harder but my late father would (quite rightly) say that his generational upbringing was harder still.
Oh and , I love the idea that" clubs wouldn't waste money"-really?.
You’re in no position to lecture people about not being condescending
Lots of people “know things about motivation”, but when you say “the players aren’t motivated” that isn’t the result of any great insight, it’s a thought-terminating cliche.
When you look at our players putting their bodies on the line, running 11km+ per match, playing through serious injuries to the detriment of their health, and claim that “they aren’t motivated” - well, there’s simply no factual basis to it.
Unfortunately, being old doesn’t magically make one’s opinions true. Life doesn’t come with a participation trophy - particularly for your so-far unimpressive age (make it to 80 and we can talk ). If you want to be right then it’s not enough to merely exist - you’ve got to get good at sorting fact from fiction, and that takes effort and application.
by leon » 23 Feb 2021 11:43
by South Coast Royal » 23 Feb 2021 11:52
Pepe the HorsemanNorfolk RoyalPepe the Horseman Tbf footballers were pretty shite pre-1992. Reckon I could've bested Pele (probs not after a night out though).
Right. HNA contributor says he's better than Pele, a player most commentators reckon is the best of all time.
I didn't say I was better than him. Just that if I played against him he'd be sat in my pocket for 90 mins, because he was shit.
by Franchise FC » 23 Feb 2021 12:16
Snowball I don't know if the science has been done for football but in rugby it has.
If you have two rugby players travelling at say, 14-second 100M pace when they collide
they impart a force X which is the two speeds multiplied together
That speed is 11.2 MPH so their COMBINED speed is 125 MPH
If they are running one second faster (13 seconds) their speed is 17.2 MPH each
and their connecting speed is 17.2 x 17.2 = 295 MPH
The point is, even increases in average speed of small amounts have large effects when players collide
Players train harder, drink less, eat better, probably sleep better. They learn how to run faster
and when they collide it is going to hurt more.
Most players play through injuries, carry niggles. if they are getting slightly nastier bangs
and with less days to recover they will be gradually breaking down.
This, for example http://www.andymcgeady.com/the-changing ... -of-rugby/
is not about individual improvements (ie players getting quicker) but it's meaningful
by SCIAG » 23 Feb 2021 14:48
South Coast RoyalSCIAGSouth Coast Royal
Well, there you go then-football is a different game altogether, sports science is everything and by your own admission YOU haven't got a clue about motivation and according to you nobody outside sport has either.
Fine.
No need to discuss this further as , with your lengthy experience of life you have all the answers-just let me, Norfolk and a few others that have worked and lived a bit longer live in ignorance as you clearly know best, condescension at its best.
BTW so many players are now soft ( the screaching and imploring looks at the ref in a "mum please help me" way when they suffer the mildest of fouls is pathetic, accentuated by no crowds in the stadia and viewers being able to hear everything) but society is soft, life is soft.
My upbringing was harder but my late father would (quite rightly) say that his generational upbringing was harder still.
Oh and , I love the idea that" clubs wouldn't waste money"-really?.
You’re in no position to lecture people about not being condescending
Lots of people “know things about motivation”, but when you say “the players aren’t motivated” that isn’t the result of any great insight, it’s a thought-terminating cliche.
When you look at our players putting their bodies on the line, running 11km+ per match, playing through serious injuries to the detriment of their health, and claim that “they aren’t motivated” - well, there’s simply no factual basis to it.
Unfortunately, being old doesn’t magically make one’s opinions true. Life doesn’t come with a participation trophy - particularly for your so-far unimpressive age (make it to 80 and we can talk ). If you want to be right then it’s not enough to merely exist - you’ve got to get good at sorting fact from fiction, and that takes effort and application.
Well, thanks for the lecture.
If "players aren't motivated" represents a cliche then surely "players need a rest" is also a cliche.
I have no issue with sports science-it is what it is and modern footballers can certainly benefit from it both on and off the pitch.
My main grouse is the fixation with "tired" and "needing a rest" and although you might feel that I am unqualified to have a legitimate view on something I do feel suitably qualified to hold a view and strongly believe that if you tell somebody that they are tired and need a rest they will feel tired.
It then becomes the norm and an excuse that tiredness has affected a performance when it might well be a lack of commitment to the cause rather than tiredness.
Coming back to motivation and mental strength.
Players like Roy Keane, Stevie Gerrard ,Jordan Henderson, Steve Sidwell and co don't need motivating; if anything they need to be reined in.
Out of this current squad at Reading I expect that Morrison and Moore fall into this category-they don't need a rest and don't need geeing up by a coach as you can see on the pitch they are brave, strong and motivated.
You then look at the rest and you wonder about their attitude, especially when we go 1-0 down.
Pauno has a job on his hands with these players whereas Morro and Moore I would guess are no problem and their heads won't go down as they continue to put their bodies on the line whether we are winning or losing.
I stand by my comment that generally players and people at large are physically and mentally softer than those from earlier generations as those earlier ones are weaker than even earlier generations.
There are exceptions of course and I have quoted Morro and Moore who must be a dream for the manager-it's the rest that he has to get into when it comes to facing physical opposition as their softness will not disappear overnight.
In today's paper Pauno has found it necessary to issue such fighting talk of needing" warriors" when we are playing the team at the bottom of the division and I bet he would like a few more Morros and Moores in his side who he knows are reliable week-in, week-out without needing to massage so many other egos.
Lots of generalisations there and I fear that this team will fall short when the going gets tougher towards the end of the season but I would be delighted to be proved wrong-the evidence of the past week is not good.
Anyway, I'm tired but I'm not a 23 year old doing the best job in the world and getting a small fortune for doing so but my mental strength will see me through the day even if the physical strength is waning.
by Snowball » 23 Feb 2021 14:50
by SCIAG » 23 Feb 2021 15:18
Franchise FCSnowball I don't know if the science has been done for football but in rugby it has.
If you have two rugby players travelling at say, 14-second 100M pace when they collide
they impart a force X which is the two speeds multiplied together
That speed is 11.2 MPH so their COMBINED speed is 125 MPH
If they are running one second faster (13 seconds) their speed is 17.2 MPH each
and their connecting speed is 17.2 x 17.2 = 295 MPH
The point is, even increases in average speed of small amounts have large effects when players collide
Players train harder, drink less, eat better, probably sleep better. They learn how to run faster
and when they collide it is going to hurt more.
Most players play through injuries, carry niggles. if they are getting slightly nastier bangs
and with less days to recover they will be gradually breaking down.
This, for example http://www.andymcgeady.com/the-changing ... -of-rugby/
is not about individual improvements (ie players getting quicker) but it's meaningful
Are you sure that's right ?
http://warp.povusers.org/grrr/collisionmath.html
Appreciate there may be different things on the interwebz, but my limited knowledge of physics means I have to rely on someone else for the 'correct' answer.
by Hound » 23 Feb 2021 17:03
Norfolk Royal I never buy that tired thing. OK you're a bit knackered after the game and might have picked up a bit of stretch here or there but you're running around for 90 minutes doing something you enjoy and want to do again, not gouging coal from a coal face on a ten hour shift, working in the burning heat of a steel mill in protective clothing, or on your feet for the whole day treating Covid patients.
by Mid Sussex Royal » 23 Feb 2021 17:24
HoundNorfolk Royal I never buy that tired thing. OK you're a bit knackered after the game and might have picked up a bit of stretch here or there but you're running around for 90 minutes doing something you enjoy and want to do again, not gouging coal from a coal face on a ten hour shift, working in the burning heat of a steel mill in protective clothing, or on your feet for the whole day treating Covid patients.
It’s not about asking for sympathy or comparing with a nurse or doctor it’s the ability to be able to perform at the top of their game
I very much doubt any player turns round to the manager and says ‘don’t play me today because I’m tired’
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