Out of Contract 2022

[Nameless]

Why? And why are they not stepping in with every club who is blowing a fortune every season?

Aren’t we totally free from restriction after this season? We’ll be treated the same as everyone else

They stepped in before we actually breached FFP, we had am embargoin place 18 months before we got the deduction. They will be monitoring our position in the same way they monitor all the clubs. Because we have breached once they’ll want to make sure we don’t breach again - preventative rather than punitive measures.

They placed our initial embargo (in 2019) for breaching profit an sustainability rules, which was also reactive because of how poor our finances were due to ridiculous amounts of overspending, but then allowed us to go and spend over £15m in that summer as well whilst also placing Birmingham under a similar embargo, a registration embargo, but yet they purchased Kristian Pedersen for £2m.

Overall though, the point is they wouldn't step in again next summer unless we were to breach either profit & sustainability rules or FFP again, in which case they'd step in either in January 23 if our finances really were that bad or the following accounting year.

So If we were in danger of breaching for a second time they would step in, you seem to be arguing against yourself here.

From the EFL rules

‘With a priority to ensure future compliance with the P&S rules, Clubs have agreed that where a breach is forecasted in future years then the League should have the ability to impose a business plan or appropriate monitoring requirements.’

You don’t have to have actually breached, you just need to be forecasting that you will in the mandatory reporting every club has to make.

[Nameless]

Why? And why are they not stepping in with every club who is blowing a fortune every season?

Aren’t we totally free from restriction after this season? We’ll be treated the same as everyone else

They stepped in before we actually breached FFP, we had am embargoin place 18 months before we got the deduction. They will be monitoring our position in the same way they monitor all the clubs. Because we have breached once they’ll want to make sure we don’t breach again - preventative rather than punitive measures.

They placed our initial embargo (in 2019) for breaching profit an sustainability rules, which was also reactive because of how poor our finances were due to ridiculous amounts of overspending, but then allowed us to go and spend over £15m in that summer as well whilst also placing Birmingham under a similar embargo, a registration embargo, but yet they purchased Kristian Pedersen for £2m.

Overall though, the point is they wouldn't step in again next summer unless we were to breach either profit & sustainability rules or FFP again, in which case they'd step in either in January 23 if our finances really were that bad or the following accounting year.

The 2019 soft embargo was because we were in danger of breaching, not because we actually had. Of course these things are ‘reactive’, they get triggered because clubs are heading in the wrong direction and have failed to adhere to the rules. The requirement to run the club properly is the first step, soft embargo’s are the next step, points deductions are the next step.

[Stranded]

They stepped in before we actually breached FFP, we had am embargoin place 18 months before we got the deduction. They will be monitoring our position in the same way they monitor all the clubs. Because we have breached once they’ll want to make sure we don’t breach again - preventative rather than punitive measures.

They placed our initial embargo (in 2019) for breaching profit an sustainability rules, which was also reactive because of how poor our finances were due to ridiculous amounts of overspending, but then allowed us to go and spend over £15m in that summer as well whilst also placing Birmingham under a similar embargo, a registration embargo, but yet they purchased Kristian Pedersen for £2m.

Overall though, the point is they wouldn't step in again next summer unless we were to breach either profit & sustainability rules or FFP again, in which case they'd step in either in January 23 if our finances really were that bad or the following accounting year.

So If we were in danger of breaching for a second time they would step in, you seem to be arguing against yourself here.

From the EFL rules

‘With a priority to ensure future compliance with the P&S rules, Clubs have agreed that where a breach is forecasted in future years then the League should have the ability to impose a business plan or appropriate monitoring requirements.’

You don’t have to have actually breached, you just need to be forecasting that you will in the mandatory reporting every club has to make.

This is a change just voted through at the EFL AGM. In short, it replaces soft embargoes with a firm plan i.e. if any club forecasts they will breach by say 4m, then they will be given a budget to try and bring the actual losses under the limit.

Brought in as the soft embargo didn't work as club could return to doing what they wanted as soon as released from it. See our 15m splurge as an example.

So if we do ever forecast a breach or even that we are sailing close to the wind, we'll need to strike a budget deal with the EFL, or get promoted.

[YorkshireRoyal99]

They stepped in before we actually breached FFP, we had am embargoin place 18 months before we got the deduction. They will be monitoring our position in the same way they monitor all the clubs. Because we have breached once they’ll want to make sure we don’t breach again - preventative rather than punitive measures.

They placed our initial embargo (in 2019) for breaching profit an sustainability rules, which was also reactive because of how poor our finances were due to ridiculous amounts of overspending, but then allowed us to go and spend over £15m in that summer as well whilst also placing Birmingham under a similar embargo, a registration embargo, but yet they purchased Kristian Pedersen for £2m.

Overall though, the point is they wouldn't step in again next summer unless we were to breach either profit & sustainability rules or FFP again, in which case they'd step in either in January 23 if our finances really were that bad or the following accounting year.

The 2019 soft embargo was because we were in danger of breaching, not because we actually had. Of course these things are ‘reactive’, they get triggered because clubs are heading in the wrong direction and have failed to adhere to the rules. The requirement to run the club properly is the first step, soft embargo’s are the next step, points deductions are the next step.

Being reactive was my point though. If we comply with our Business Plan from this year and next season, then we will be compliant with P&S regulations. It would then take us to go and spend more money in order for us to not be compliant before they step in again which was my original point.

[Nameless]

They placed our initial embargo (in 2019) for breaching profit an sustainability rules, which was also reactive because of how poor our finances were due to ridiculous amounts of overspending, but then allowed us to go and spend over £15m in that summer as well whilst also placing Birmingham under a similar embargo, a registration embargo, but yet they purchased Kristian Pedersen for £2m.

Overall though, the point is they wouldn't step in again next summer unless we were to breach either profit & sustainability rules or FFP again, in which case they'd step in either in January 23 if our finances really were that bad or the following accounting year.

The 2019 soft embargo was because we were in danger of breaching, not because we actually had. Of course these things are ‘reactive’, they get triggered because clubs are heading in the wrong direction and have failed to adhere to the rules. The requirement to run the club properly is the first step, soft embargo’s are the next step, points deductions are the next step.

Being reactive was my point though. If we comply with our Business Plan from this year and next season, then we will be compliant with P&S regulations. It would then take us to go and spend more money in order for us to not be compliant before they step in again which was my original point.

But as has been pointed out that really is not the case.
Unless we decide to absolutely stupidly do something that will be tantamount to asking to get thrown out of the league. We would have to either file a deliberately incorrect budget or we would have to file a budget and then deliberately break it. Both would be picked up quickly and get us into serious trouble, made more serious by us being previous offenders.
I’m not sure why you think we won’t be on the radar of the league for some time to come and any sign that we are reverting back to old habits won’t be dealt with. The process as in place is intended to stop clubs breaching, not to punish them if they do.....

[Hound]

Must say I’m looking forward to all these business plans tbe EFL will be writing for the likes of Stoke, Bristol, Middlesbrough, Huddersfield etc this coming season

[Coppells Lost Coat]

I wonder if the EFL will use pie charts for the northern clubs and over priced bar charts for the southern club in the proposed business plans.

[Nameless]

Must say I’m looking forward to all these business plans tbe EFL will be writing for the likes of Stoke, Bristol, Middlesbrough, Huddersfield etc this coming season

They didn't write one for us, not sure they will do it for anyone else....
Stoke and Bristol won't need one, haven't they both found nice ways round P&S ?

[Simon's Church]

Boro are about to get £25m for spence which probably eases any issues they would have had

[YorkshireRoyal99]

The 2019 soft embargo was because we were in danger of breaching, not because we actually had. Of course these things are ‘reactive’, they get triggered because clubs are heading in the wrong direction and have failed to adhere to the rules. The requirement to run the club properly is the first step, soft embargo’s are the next step, points deductions are the next step.

Being reactive was my point though. If we comply with our Business Plan from this year and next season, then we will be compliant with P&S regulations. It would then take us to go and spend more money in order for us to not be compliant before they step in again which was my original point.

But as has been pointed out that really is not the case.
Unless we decide to absolutely stupidly do something that will be tantamount to asking to get thrown out of the league. We would have to either file a deliberately incorrect budget or we would have to file a budget and then deliberately break it. Both would be picked up quickly and get us into serious trouble, made more serious by us being previous offenders.
I’m not sure why you think we won’t be on the radar of the league for some time to come and any sign that we are reverting back to old habits won’t be dealt with. The process as in place is intended to stop clubs breaching, not to punish them if they do.....

So what about everyone else then? As mentioned, Bristol City, Stoke, Middlesbrough etc. They are all in danger or have broken FFP and/or P&S regulations. The EFL and ourselves agreed on a Business Plan, so they didn't write it, but they were involved in the process where both parties came to an agreement on what was acceptable.

Are Sheffield Wednesday and Birmingham still under watch by the EFL just out of interest as they previously broke the rules, had points deducted and are now clear. Birmingham are currently losing £600k a week on day-to-day activities and this has been going on for years, so where is the EFL's contingency plan with them?

[Stranded]

Being reactive was my point though. If we comply with our Business Plan from this year and next season, then we will be compliant with P&S regulations. It would then take us to go and spend more money in order for us to not be compliant before they step in again which was my original point.

But as has been pointed out that really is not the case.
Unless we decide to absolutely stupidly do something that will be tantamount to asking to get thrown out of the league. We would have to either file a deliberately incorrect budget or we would have to file a budget and then deliberately break it. Both would be picked up quickly and get us into serious trouble, made more serious by us being previous offenders.
I’m not sure why you think we won’t be on the radar of the league for some time to come and any sign that we are reverting back to old habits won’t be dealt with. The process as in place is intended to stop clubs breaching, not to punish them if they do.....

So what about everyone else then? As mentioned, Bristol City, Stoke, Middlesbrough etc. They are all in danger or have broken FFP and/or P&S regulations. The EFL and ourselves agreed on a Business Plan, so they didn't write it, but they were involved in the process where both parties came to an agreement on what was acceptable.

Are Sheffield Wednesday and Birmingham still under watch by the EFL just out of interest as they previously broke the rules, had points deducted and are now clear. Birmingham are currently losing £600k a week on day-to-day activities and this has been going on for years, so where is the EFL's contingency plan with them?

As has been made clear, the EFL will get involved if they are forecasting to breach. If they are not and they are happy with the accounts, then they won't get involved. We will be "free" next season until and unless we tell them we may breach or go very close to breaching. The change in rules is designed to stop the need for points deductions.

Every club is under watch, that is the point of the annual reporting.

[Hound]

But as has been pointed out that really is not the case.
Unless we decide to absolutely stupidly do something that will be tantamount to asking to get thrown out of the league. We would have to either file a deliberately incorrect budget or we would have to file a budget and then deliberately break it. Both would be picked up quickly and get us into serious trouble, made more serious by us being previous offenders.
I’m not sure why you think we won’t be on the radar of the league for some time to come and any sign that we are reverting back to old habits won’t be dealt with. The process as in place is intended to stop clubs breaching, not to punish them if they do.....

So what about everyone else then? As mentioned, Bristol City, Stoke, Middlesbrough etc. They are all in danger or have broken FFP and/or P&S regulations. The EFL and ourselves agreed on a Business Plan, so they didn't write it, but they were involved in the process where both parties came to an agreement on what was acceptable.

Are Sheffield Wednesday and Birmingham still under watch by the EFL just out of interest as they previously broke the rules, had points deducted and are now clear. Birmingham are currently losing £600k a week on day-to-day activities and this has been going on for years, so where is the EFL's contingency plan with them?

As has been made clear, the EFL will get involved if they are forecasting to breach. If they are not and they are happy with the accounts, then they won't get involved. We will be "free" next season until and unless we tell them we may breach or go very close to breaching. The change in rules is designed to stop the need for points deductions.

Every club is under watch, that is the point of the annual reporting.

Yeah hence we’ll be in the same boat as every other club come next summer

But quite possibly with some extra ffp leeway due to the embargoes weve been under

[Nameless]

So what about everyone else then? As mentioned, Bristol City, Stoke, Middlesbrough etc. They are all in danger or have broken FFP and/or P&S regulations. The EFL and ourselves agreed on a Business Plan, so they didn't write it, but they were involved in the process where both parties came to an agreement on what was acceptable.

Are Sheffield Wednesday and Birmingham still under watch by the EFL just out of interest as they previously broke the rules, had points deducted and are now clear. Birmingham are currently losing £600k a week on day-to-day activities and this has been going on for years, so where is the EFL's contingency plan with them?

As has been made clear, the EFL will get involved if they are forecasting to breach. If they are not and they are happy with the accounts, then they won't get involved. We will be "free" next season until and unless we tell them we may breach or go very close to breaching. The change in rules is designed to stop the need for points deductions.

Every club is under watch, that is the point of the annual reporting.

Yeah hence we’ll be in the same boat as every other club come next summer

But quite possibly with some extra ffp leeway due to the embargoes weve been under

No, we’ll have less leeway, because we’ll have stripped everything to the bone and probably just squeaked into compliance. Other clubs will probably still have a bit of contingency to play with, we won’t.

[Nameless]

Being reactive was my point though. If we comply with our Business Plan from this year and next season, then we will be compliant with P&S regulations. It would then take us to go and spend more money in order for us to not be compliant before they step in again which was my original point.

But as has been pointed out that really is not the case.
Unless we decide to absolutely stupidly do something that will be tantamount to asking to get thrown out of the league. We would have to either file a deliberately incorrect budget or we would have to file a budget and then deliberately break it. Both would be picked up quickly and get us into serious trouble, made more serious by us being previous offenders.
I’m not sure why you think we won’t be on the radar of the league for some time to come and any sign that we are reverting back to old habits won’t be dealt with. The process as in place is intended to stop clubs breaching, not to punish them if they do.....

So what about everyone else then? As mentioned, Bristol City, Stoke, Middlesbrough etc. They are all in danger or have broken FFP and/or P&S regulations. The EFL and ourselves agreed on a Business Plan, so they didn't write it, but they were involved in the process where both parties came to an agreement on what was acceptable.

Are Sheffield Wednesday and Birmingham still under watch by the EFL just out of interest as they previously broke the rules, had points deducted and are now clear. Birmingham are currently losing £600k a week on day-to-day activities and this has been going on for years, so where is the EFL's contingency plan with them?

Ok, you are spot on. It’s just us that is getting picked on. Everyone else has been allowed to do what they want with no repercussions. It’s all horrible and really unfair.....

[Stranded]

So what about everyone else then? As mentioned, Bristol City, Stoke, Middlesbrough etc. They are all in danger or have broken FFP and/or P&S regulations. The EFL and ourselves agreed on a Business Plan, so they didn't write it, but they were involved in the process where both parties came to an agreement on what was acceptable.

Are Sheffield Wednesday and Birmingham still under watch by the EFL just out of interest as they previously broke the rules, had points deducted and are now clear. Birmingham are currently losing £600k a week on day-to-day activities and this has been going on for years, so where is the EFL's contingency plan with them?

As has been made clear, the EFL will get involved if they are forecasting to breach. If they are not and they are happy with the accounts, then they won't get involved. We will be "free" next season until and unless we tell them we may breach or go very close to breaching. The change in rules is designed to stop the need for points deductions.

Every club is under watch, that is the point of the annual reporting.

Yeah hence we’ll be in the same boat as every other club come next summer

But quite possibly with some extra ffp leeway due to the embargoes weve been under

Depends. As part of the agreement every season up to the end of 2020/21 has an adjusted loss of 13m now - so for 21/22 our actual loss must be no more that 13m else we will get the 6 pts deducted plus any additional points penalty. We should be fine as the 8m for Olise will be against the last season, so we would need to have lost more than 21m in FFP terms to breach. This seems unlikely.

I think any real leeway will be down to any sales we make this summer, so if we rake in say 7m or so from Joao/Puscas sales then we are good, else, as I expect income to be down next year due to a) us being pants for a long time and b) cost of living meaning people choose not to spend money going to football - we may still sail close to the wind but that will likely be true of most clubs. Of course if we go down, situation may be worse still.

[Stranded]

As has been made clear, the EFL will get involved if they are forecasting to breach. If they are not and they are happy with the accounts, then they won't get involved. We will be "free" next season until and unless we tell them we may breach or go very close to breaching. The change in rules is designed to stop the need for points deductions.

Every club is under watch, that is the point of the annual reporting.

Yeah hence we’ll be in the same boat as every other club come next summer

But quite possibly with some extra ffp leeway due to the embargoes weve been under

No, we’ll have less leeway, because we’ll have stripped everything to the bone and probably just squeaked into compliance. Other clubs will probably still have a bit of contingency to play with, we won’t.

A lot will depend on last year and this years accounts really. As it stands

19/20 = 13m loss
20/21 = 13m loss
21/22? - 8m in for Olise, so FFP losses may be down to 8-10m

If we make a sale or two with a smaller wage bill, then if we stay up we may be able to loss 20m or so in 23/24 and still be OK, meaning a little more cash could be splashed. Alongside paying too much in wages, the biggest issue has been not selling when players were at their peak i.e. not taking the 10m for Moore, not selling Loader to Wolves - if we have learnt our lesson and sell one top performer a year, we can reinvest the proceeds without getting in too much trouble.

Needs a mindset change at the club but have to get through this season first somehow.

[YorkshireRoyal99]

But as has been pointed out that really is not the case.
Unless we decide to absolutely stupidly do something that will be tantamount to asking to get thrown out of the league. We would have to either file a deliberately incorrect budget or we would have to file a budget and then deliberately break it. Both would be picked up quickly and get us into serious trouble, made more serious by us being previous offenders.
I’m not sure why you think we won’t be on the radar of the league for some time to come and any sign that we are reverting back to old habits won’t be dealt with. The process as in place is intended to stop clubs breaching, not to punish them if they do.....

So what about everyone else then? As mentioned, Bristol City, Stoke, Middlesbrough etc. They are all in danger or have broken FFP and/or P&S regulations. The EFL and ourselves agreed on a Business Plan, so they didn't write it, but they were involved in the process where both parties came to an agreement on what was acceptable.

Are Sheffield Wednesday and Birmingham still under watch by the EFL just out of interest as they previously broke the rules, had points deducted and are now clear. Birmingham are currently losing £600k a week on day-to-day activities and this has been going on for years, so where is the EFL's contingency plan with them?

Ok, you are spot on. It’s just us that is getting picked on. Everyone else has been allowed to do what they want with no repercussions. It’s all horrible and really unfair.....

I'm not suggesting we are being picked on, but Birmingham have not changed anything since their points deduction, hence why they've been losing so much a week on day-to-day activities and have a wage bill to turnover ratio that has increased, not decreased. Where they've "beaten" the system is that they've managed to sell Bellingham and Adams for high value.

My point is, we can start grossly overpaying players again, but if we manage to sell 2/3 players on for big money which steers us clear of FFP regulations, then the EFL wouldn't get involved. I take your point about everyone being under watch, but it's some closer than others, but yet Birmingham's attitude doesn't seem to have shifted much yet they haven't been anywhere near which goes back to what was originally said about we can start offering certain players massive wages again, but if we can make a big sale we will keep clear of FFP, so I don't see why that would be a problem with the EFL.

[Hound]

Yeah hence we’ll be in the same boat as every other club come next summer

But quite possibly with some extra ffp leeway due to the embargoes weve been under

No, we’ll have less leeway, because we’ll have stripped everything to the bone and probably just squeaked into compliance. Other clubs will probably still have a bit of contingency to play with, we won’t.

A lot will depend on last year and this years accounts really. As it stands

19/20 = 13m loss
20/21 = 13m loss
21/22? - 8m in for Olise, so FFP losses may be down to 8-10m

If we make a sale or two with a smaller wage bill, then if we stay up we may be able to loss 20m or so in 23/24 and still be OK, meaning a little more cash could be splashed. Alongside paying too much in wages, the biggest issue has been not selling when players were at their peak i.e. not taking the 10m for Moore, not selling Loader to Wolves - if we have learnt our lesson and sell one top performer a year, we can reinvest the proceeds without getting in too much trouble.

Needs a mindset change at the club but have to get through this season first somehow.

Indeed. We’re all just speculating on the accounts from last and this coming season and that’s what will determine how much attention the EFL pay us. If we end up with a £20m leeway as we’ve suggested then they’ll have more pressing matters no doubts

Any sales made will obviously help those accounts and will the likes of Swift coming off the wage bill. I’d assume the business plan for this and last year were to get us towards break even rather than scraping in at the 13m loss mark

If not then obvs we’ll be sweating on breaking FFP again pretty quickly

[WestYorksRoyal]

I would hope the EFL's business plan should leave us in a healthy position if we follow it. After this season, we should have the opportunity to make sensible decisions again, instead of being forced simply to allow contracts of potential saleable assets to expire. Of course, how we choose to use the freedom is the unknown. Can the owners prove to us all that they've learnt?

Passing up on £10m has the be the prizewinner of poor decisions. Being a good selling club is a sustainable way to punch above your weight.

[Hound]

I would hope the EFL's business plan should leave us in a healthy position if we follow it. After this season, we should have the opportunity to make sensible decisions again, instead of being forced simply to allow contracts of potential saleable assets to expire. Of course, how we choose to use the freedom is the unknown. Can the owners prove to us all that they've learnt?

Passing up on £10m has the be the prizewinner of poor decisions. Being a good selling club is a sustainable way to punch above your weight.

We’d just have blown it on shite anyway