Ince out!

[YorkshireRoyal99]

If we have more of the game, and score more goals, defence becomes less of a problem.

Ince's solution is to cripple every other part of the side to protect the defence and we're still leaking goals galore.

So take the pressure off. Up possession, up time in the oppo half, create more chances.

Opposition have to worry more about the threat we carry and can't just pile on the pressure and push us deeper and deeper with no concern for their own goal.

McIntyre and Holmes have both played fullback. Yiadom can play left back, we also have Abrefa.

There are a plethora of possibilities, none of which are being tried.

Whist I don't necessarily disagree, P.Ince has admitted that we don't have that many good technical footballers in our squad. So yes, whilst we need to find a different way to do things, trying to make pretty drastic changes, like upping possession, is just going to kill us even more.

What we need to do is find other ways to improve how we play. We haven't been able to easily dip into the market to find players and our squad is so limited. It's battle-hardened with a battle-hardened manager. So we do have to take those aspects of our game, our strengths, and then look at where we are weak and find other ways to do things.

As I said earlier, I've no problem with conceding possession to the opposition away from home because that's where we are, but we don't carry a threat often enough, players can often make poor decisions etc. So maybe we can change the shape to have a 4-3-3, we still sit deep, have a compact middle third but having 2 players on each flank means we are less vulnerable to being overloaded in the wider areas, thus conceding less crosses etc. On the flip side, it means we can stretch the game on the break and we can have some players who can swing crosses in towards Carroll, rather than relying on wing backs that can't get up the field because of how deep they usually are.

I don't accept we have players who are incapable of maintaining a reasonable possession level when set up appropriately.

But our manager, who works with these players everyday, says things to the contrary.

I take your point though, we do need to take a little bit more care with the ball and there shouldn't be any reason as to why we can't have an extra 5% possession in a game than what we currently do.

[Jinx]

If we have more of the game, and score more goals, defence becomes less of a problem.

Ince's solution is to cripple every other part of the side to protect the defence and we're still leaking goals galore.

So take the pressure off. Up possession, up time in the oppo half, create more chances.

Opposition have to worry more about the threat we carry and can't just pile on the pressure and push us deeper and deeper with no concern for their own goal.

McIntyre and Holmes have both played fullback. Yiadom can play left back, we also have Abrefa.

There are a plethora of possibilities, none of which are being tried.

Whist I don't necessarily disagree, P.Ince has admitted that we don't have that many good technical footballers in our squad. So yes, whilst we need to find a different way to do things, trying to make pretty drastic changes, like upping possession, is just going to kill us even more.

What we need to do is find other ways to improve how we play. We haven't been able to easily dip into the market to find players and our squad is so limited. It's battle-hardened with a battle-hardened manager. So we do have to take those aspects of our game, our strengths, and then look at where we are weak and find other ways to do things.

As I said earlier, I've no problem with conceding possession to the opposition away from home because that's where we are, but we don't carry a threat often enough, players can often make poor decisions etc. So maybe we can change the shape to have a 4-3-3, we still sit deep, have a compact middle third but having 2 players on each flank means we are less vulnerable to being overloaded in the wider areas, thus conceding less crosses etc. On the flip side, it means we can stretch the game on the break and we can have some players who can swing crosses in towards Carroll, rather than relying on wing backs that can't get up the field because of how deep they usually are.

I don't accept we have players who are incapable of maintaining a reasonable possession level when set up appropriately.

Then you haven't been watching closely

To name a few - Yiadom, Meite, Fornah, Loum are appalling in possession of the ball

[SCIAG]

Meite and Yiadom have both played in successful possession-heavy sides before. It isn’t Meite’s strength but he can still play a role - particularly providing an “out” and stretching play.

Fornah is not the most aesthetic player but he tends to make good decisions on the ball. He’s only behind Hutchinson for pass completion %, his dribbling is good, and he actually creates more than Hendrick.

Loum, I can see where you’re coming from, but I think his major flaw is his tendency to go missing. I don’t think our style of play would hurt that.

[tmesis]

I haven't, I just suggested maybe we should see what other managers are available this summer (live in the moment). If there's a better fit we should go for it. If not, stick but I don't see Ince being here in another year.

You can't really do that without sacking him though, because if that happened he'd probably quit.

The reality is that very few proven managers would want the Reading job, even if FFP restrictions are lifted. By championship standards, we really aren't anything special as a club.

It's pretty much Ince or somebody unproven, who may do better, may do worse.

Where does your perception of reality come from? I just don’t think that’s true. Decent club, great facilities, decent academy and an owner with cash willing to spend it. There will be plenty of interested parties IMO.

We don't exist in isolation. It's not simply a case of what we can offer. It's a matter of what we can offer against what other clubs can offer. All these "managers much better than Paul Ince" are more than likely to wait for a job at a club "much better than Reading" - because by Championship standards we are no longer anything special. We have huge debts, below average support, no scouting network, a squad that is ordinary at best, and we don't know about any future spending restictions. We have a chairman who sacks managers on a regular basis...

We just aren't anywhere the great attraction that you think we are.

[Snowflake Royal]

Meite and Yiadom have both played in successful possession-heavy sides before. It isn’t Meite’s strength but he can still play a role - particularly providing an “out” and stretching play.

Fornah is not the most aesthetic player but he tends to make good decisions on the ball. He’s only behind Hutchinson for pass completion %, his dribbling is good, and he actually creates more than Hendrick.

Loum, I can see where you’re coming from, but I think his major flaw is his tendency to go missing. I don’t think our style of play would hurt that.

This. All of them are more than capable of more than just hoofing to Carroll.

It's not like they have to play like Barcelona. Just look after the ball better. If the team could just be set up to permit it and they got some encouragement.

[Royal Rother]

When nobody is either comfortable on the ball or confident receiving it anywhere on the pitch but you’ve got an Andy Carroll up top, the hoof ball to him is an attractive option.

That’s all well and good (well, it’s not really) but not having runners anywhere near him to take advantage of his prodigious aerial ability is just daft.

[Coppells Lost Coat]

When nobody is either comfortable on the ball or confident receiving it anywhere on the pitch but you’ve got an Andy Carroll up top, the hoof ball to him is an attractive option.

That’s all well and good (well, it’s not really) but not having runners anywhere near him to take advantage of his prodigious aerial ability is just daft.

Yup. Sounds right.
Main issue is - he plays a CB in CM and then says we dont create enough. He tells the team to be tight a compact and work as a unit but then sets us up to run off Carroll flick ons from hoofed clearances....... You cant do that.

He then has the nerve to say our players are not good enough.... i think that was my line. We can play shit etc and lose but dont throw the players that you picked and set up under the bus.

[YorkshireRoyal99]

Meite and Yiadom have both played in successful possession-heavy sides before. It isn’t Meite’s strength but he can still play a role - particularly providing an “out” and stretching play.

Fornah is not the most aesthetic player but he tends to make good decisions on the ball. He’s only behind Hutchinson for pass completion %, his dribbling is good, and he actually creates more than Hendrick.

Loum, I can see where you’re coming from, but I think his major flaw is his tendency to go missing. I don’t think our style of play would hurt that.

This. All of them are more than capable of more than just hoofing to Carroll.

It's not like they have to play like Barcelona. Just look after the ball better. If the team could just be set up to permit it and they got some encouragement.

Yes, at the end of the day they are professional footballers so they are capable of passing a ball, but at what level though.

Look at Stoke's first goal for example, playing out from the back, get caught out concede a goal which Ince was rightly not happy about. I know that's just one moment in isolation but the fact is we'd likely have plenty more of those moments trying to do it that way as well.

Even Friday's game, look at some of the passing from Sarr, Mbengue and Dann, it was poor and gifted the opposition the ball and/or a chance at get at goal. Considering we already struggle to create that many chances in general, gifting the opposition opportunities is probably the last thing we should be doing as well.

I do actually agree though, we need to look after the ball better and there are certain players capable of doing that, but there is also the bigger picture as well. We can't just drastically look to overhaul what we do, but rather how can we get the ball into midfield to keep hold of it.

[Royal Rother]

Whatever anyone thinks of them, and whatever opinions we may have on their attitude / application / relative merits, or the guesswork at what may have gone on behind the scenes,it may be no coincidence that our 2 most skillful players in Ejaria and Joao have found themselves frozen out.

[Hound]

Rightly or wrongly (there’s a fair argument to say rightly considering where we are in the table) ince has always looked to prioritise physical strong players over ‘good footballers’

Sarr, Loum, Mbengue, Hendrick McIntyre in midfield, Dann, AC etc - none are going to be able to keep hold of the ball particularly well

He favours triers like Yiadom and Hoilett over the likes of Ejaria and Azeez. Long/Carroll over Joao

I’ve thought for a while that this would be one ugly season of football and it’s turning out like that. Which is always quite likely when you are jsit prioritising staying up over anything else

Looking forward to the end of the season and at least being able to plan for the future a bit. There are signs that Ince may just be starting to trust Azeez, Mbengue, NGW just a little bit more and hopefully a more interesting future

I think there is talent at the club and hopefully it’s a case of using that a bit more and shedding some of the big lumps at the end of the year

[Snowflake Royal]

Meite and Yiadom have both played in successful possession-heavy sides before. It isn’t Meite’s strength but he can still play a role - particularly providing an “out” and stretching play.

Fornah is not the most aesthetic player but he tends to make good decisions on the ball. He’s only behind Hutchinson for pass completion %, his dribbling is good, and he actually creates more than Hendrick.

Loum, I can see where you’re coming from, but I think his major flaw is his tendency to go missing. I don’t think our style of play would hurt that.

This. All of them are more than capable of more than just hoofing to Carroll.

It's not like they have to play like Barcelona. Just look after the ball better. If the team could just be set up to permit it and they got some encouragement.

Yes, at the end of the day they are professional footballers so they are capable of passing a ball, but at what level though.

Look at Stoke's first goal for example, playing out from the back, get caught out concede a goal which Ince was rightly not happy about. I know that's just one moment in isolation but the fact is we'd likely have plenty more of those moments trying to do it that way as well.

Even Friday's game, look at some of the passing from Sarr, Mbengue and Dann, it was poor and gifted the opposition the ball and/or a chance at get at goal. Considering we already struggle to create that many chances in general, gifting the opposition opportunities is probably the last thing we should be doing as well.

I do actually agree though, we need to look after the ball better and there are certain players capable of doing that, but there is also the bigger picture as well. We can't just drastically look to overhaul what we do, but rather how can we get the ball into midfield to keep hold of it.

You seem to be conflating retaining a reasonable amount of possession and passing competently with a possession based passing out from the back style of football.

These are not the same things.

[YorkshireRoyal99]

Rightly or wrongly (there’s a fair argument to say rightly considering where we are in the table) ince has always looked to prioritise physical strong players over ‘good footballers’

Sarr, Loum, Mbengue, Hendrick McIntyre in midfield, Dann, AC etc - none are going to be able to keep hold of the ball particularly well

He favours triers like Yiadom and Hoilett over the likes of Ejaria and Azeez. Long/Carroll over Joao

I’ve thought for a while that this would be one ugly season of football and it’s turning out like that. Which is always quite likely when you are jsit prioritising staying up over anything else

Looking forward to the end of the season and at least being able to plan for the future a bit. There are signs that Ince may just be starting to trust Azeez, Mbengue, NGW just a little bit more and hopefully a more interesting future

I think there is talent at the club and hopefully it’s a case of using that a bit more and shedding some of the big lumps at the end of the year

Agree - obviously we had our hands tied a bit because of restrictions so we had to pick up what we could get but there has been a clear difference between the physicality in the side this year to last season.

Last season we were easy to play against and lightweight in a lot of areas whereas now we have bigger players in the team and seem more suited to the Championship, rather than trying to play like a Premier League side without the quality of players to do so.

The decision was right to change between the two though as well, but obviously it comes at a cost somewhere and the football has been a bit turgid, but of course it does end up being when you aren't getting results. A win on Saturday and there will be a happier atmosphere for sure.

[Snowflake Royal]

Whatever anyone thinks of them, and whatever opinions we may have on their attitude / application / relative merits, or the guesswork at what may have gone on behind the scenes,it may be no coincidence that our 2 most skillful players in Ejaria and Joao have found themselves frozen out.

It's definitely a coincidence.

One of them has barely played due to a combination of sickness, injury and attitude. Although he probably wouldn't have done very well watching the ball sail of his head and getting an absolute shellacking from both Ince's for slowing things down and losing the ball.

Whilst the other has played, but underperformed as he was left isolated while we played to his weaknesses. Although I'll grant you he probably would have done better and still been playing if we actually had a game plan that tried to work to his strengths.

[YorkshireRoyal99]

This. All of them are more than capable of more than just hoofing to Carroll.

It's not like they have to play like Barcelona. Just look after the ball better. If the team could just be set up to permit it and they got some encouragement.

Yes, at the end of the day they are professional footballers so they are capable of passing a ball, but at what level though.

Look at Stoke's first goal for example, playing out from the back, get caught out concede a goal which Ince was rightly not happy about. I know that's just one moment in isolation but the fact is we'd likely have plenty more of those moments trying to do it that way as well.

Even Friday's game, look at some of the passing from Sarr, Mbengue and Dann, it was poor and gifted the opposition the ball and/or a chance at get at goal. Considering we already struggle to create that many chances in general, gifting the opposition opportunities is probably the last thing we should be doing as well.

I do actually agree though, we need to look after the ball better and there are certain players capable of doing that, but there is also the bigger picture as well. We can't just drastically look to overhaul what we do, but rather how can we get the ball into midfield to keep hold of it.

You seem to be conflating retaining a reasonable amount of possession and passing competently with a possession based passing out from the back style of football.

These are not the same things.

But then what's a "reasonable amount of possession"? And more importantly, how do you implement it with the players that we've got at the moment?

We shouldn't be making some of the basic errors that we did on Friday when we had the ball, but then asking those players to try and do something that they might not be good enough to do will also come at an even greater cost as well.

I'm as frustrated as the next person because we do have some capable ball players in our team, however we also don't as the case is with a fair few players. That's probably to be expected though when we've had to buy based on what's available, rather than what we can try and build. But if we aren't going to use the likes of Fornah and Casadei together/conssistently, then there's no point looking to adapt what we do now as it won't suit our group as well.

[leon]

Well, whatever Ince is asking them to do at the moment really isn’t working so we need to change it’s pretty simple.

[Hound]

I’m just really keen like everyone else to get a couple more wins asap and see where we go from there

Think it’s difficult to judge Ince in terms of his future until we do that. Cardiff was a shocker but I can see the logic in trying to not lose that and back our home form to beat Blackpool. 7 points from those 3 would have near sealed safety

Get 6 or 7 more points and then hopefully can see if we have a bit more ambition and entertainment when there is less to lose

Would love to see Abrefa, Ehibhatiomhan, Abbey, Azeez, NGW, Fornah consistently getting more minutes at the expense of players I don’t want here next year - Meite, Joao, Hoilett, Dann, Loum etc

[Sutekh]

And who should replace Ince if he does get the heave-ho? Noel Hunt?

[YorkshireRoyal99]

And who should replace Ince if he does get the heave-ho? Noel Hunt?

There is also that as I think he's probably the best person to take the team forward at the moment. Not that he's the best manager out there or anything, but he knows the situation and knows where we need to improve and has highlighted this and has put steps in place since he first walked through the door.

He highlighted the need for coaches around him, a structure in place above him, the need for a recruitment team etc. All of those have been, or are in the process of, being put into place. So he has shown he has identified the issues and he (along with the club) are trying to go someway to change that.

Like with many things, it can't/won't happen overnight or just in 12 months. Especially when we are wanting a different style to how we've played virtually all season, but with a limited capacity to do so. I'm hopeful that in the summer we can see a bit more of a transition away from what we've seen in recent times, but trying to develop on what we've got, which is a bit more of a backbone, committed players etc.

[Zip]

Agree with Hound's post
Bowen clearly had a plan and that involved bringing in much greater physicality into midfield. We were so soft in this area last season with teams running straight through us in the middle of the pitch

It has come at a price with minimal creativity in this area. We have been over reliant on Ince and set pieces to scrape wins. It should be enough to see us safe but it's a hard watch

Ince has taken it to extremes though and we often end up with four or five centre backs on the pitch. It's inexcusable to be set up so defensively against the weakest teams in the division.

We have a limited manager and limited squad. If we stay up its job done but next season needs to be better

[Snowflake Royal]

Yes, at the end of the day they are professional footballers so they are capable of passing a ball, but at what level though.

Look at Stoke's first goal for example, playing out from the back, get caught out concede a goal which Ince was rightly not happy about. I know that's just one moment in isolation but the fact is we'd likely have plenty more of those moments trying to do it that way as well.

Even Friday's game, look at some of the passing from Sarr, Mbengue and Dann, it was poor and gifted the opposition the ball and/or a chance at get at goal. Considering we already struggle to create that many chances in general, gifting the opposition opportunities is probably the last thing we should be doing as well.

I do actually agree though, we need to look after the ball better and there are certain players capable of doing that, but there is also the bigger picture as well. We can't just drastically look to overhaul what we do, but rather how can we get the ball into midfield to keep hold of it.

You seem to be conflating retaining a reasonable amount of possession and passing competently with a possession based passing out from the back style of football.

These are not the same things.

But then what's a "reasonable amount of possession"? And more importantly, how do you implement it with the players that we've got at the moment?

We shouldn't be making some of the basic errors that we did on Friday when we had the ball, but then asking those players to try and do something that they might not be good enough to do will also come at an even greater cost as well.

I'm as frustrated as the next person because we do have some capable ball players in our team, however we also don't as the case is with a fair few players. That's probably to be expected though when we've had to buy based on what's available, rather than what we can try and build. But if we aren't going to use the likes of Fornah and Casadei together/conssistently, then there's no point looking to adapt what we do now as it won't suit our group as well.

What do you think is a reasonable amount of possession?

It really shouldn’t be something particularly headache inducing.

The players are doing badly, because they're being set up badly and asked to play a way that doesn’t work. Ask them to play in a credible way, with a decent set up, and you'll see them perform better at the basics.