Embargos, HMRC Payment defaults, non payment of wages, the usual under Dai Wrongge

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Re: I've lost count - Embargos, HMRC Payent defaults, non payment of wages, the usual under Dai Wrongge

by Snowflake Royal » 05 Nov 2023 11:52

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Franchise FC Once an administrator is appointed the club is theirs to fulfil their obligations.
Their principal regard is to maximise the return to the secured creditors and everyone else is secondary.
They would only sell off a piece of any business if that fits within that requirement and wouldn’t do so ‘simply to keep a business afloat’
Sadly, I know this from particularly bitter experience

But presumably if the only way to get the creditors their money was to accept a relatively low offer on the proviso that the new owners pay off secured creditors in full, they would be able to do this? I think a lot of football financial sagas have ended this way?

My point being that, once in administration, Dai would have no control and wouldn’t be consulted
The deal arranged will then be communicated to him as fait accomplis, not ‘do you like it’

Which is why he won’t put us in administration. Especially given any deal the Administrators accept will see them take their cut first.

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Re: I've lost count - Embargos, HMRC Payent defaults, non payment of wages, the usual under Dai Wrongge

by 3points » 06 Nov 2023 13:30

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No. Although HMRC cannot put a business or club into administration, the rules that apply automatically install HMRC as the preferred creditor should a business go into administration. If indeed HMRC are owed anything.


As I understand it creditors go for liquidation to get their money, administration is some attempt by directors to protect the company from that to carry on in some form. So HMRC or any creditor can get us liquidated and the reaction from that should be for Dai pay the creditor or to put us into administration. Liquidation or administration he loses money but less so in administration as there is a club to sell, but should be not choose administration the club is gone and (a phoenix club) would have to start again at the bottom.


Well, sort of. If a club or business goes into administration, the administrator who is independent of the directors or creditors, dishes out what money is left to firstly the HMRC, if they are owed, then to other creditors at usually reduced rates, ten pence in the pound for instance, so people owed at least get something.

This isn't quite correct. The administrator (who is formally an officer of the court) has legal obligations to maximise the realisations for the benefit of all creditors. creditors fall into three main categories
1. Secured
2. Preferential
3. Unsecured
Football is a little different and has "football creditors" which, I believe, have to be paid put as well (e.g. money owed to other clubs for transfer fees).

Per above Dai is a secured creditor as he has loans into the club secured by "charges" over the assets of the club (noting the stadium is outside of this security net). Any sold assets are then either deemed to be fixed or floating assets and that makes a difference as to who gets paid first from the distributions from the administrators (note the administrators and their legal advisors get paid their fees before anyone else gets a penny).

Using the above Dai will get the lion's share of any money realised from the sale of the club and its assets. It s my understanding that HMRC also has to be paid in full too (it ranks alongside the football creditors).

Administrators are usually either appointed by the secured creditor (usually a bank or lender) or the directors. In this case Dai is both the secured lender and also a director (along with Pang, his sister, Narin Niruttinanon and Graham Odell). Therefore it is highly unlikely the directors will act against Dai and he'd have a majority with him, Pang and his sister in any board meeting.

It is technically possible for any creditor to petition the courts and ask for an administration order to be made. It is pretty rare and only used in aggressive circumstances when nothing else works. However, it is in the judge's discretion as to whether they agree with the creditor and put the company into administration. In this instance Dai also has the option to pay off the creditor in full meaning they are no longer owed money.

The big problem we will face if we enter administration is how the club will be funded through the period of administration. The administrators will try to reduce costs and align income with payments as best as possible. Everything bar the bare essentials will be cut, including employees and probably the academy). It may be there is an interested party who will help fund the club while it completes due diligence and can execute a transaction (as I think was the case with Derby).

Happy to answer questions as this is my field of work.
Last edited by 3points on 06 Nov 2023 13:34, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: I've lost count - Embargos, HMRC Payent defaults, non payment of wages, the usual under Dai Wrongge

by 3points » 06 Nov 2023 13:32

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Sutekh Thanks STAR, great decision to engage with the FL over this debacle. Out of interest is there anyone within STAR who has a legal background who could advise if there is anything that business/club shareholders could do to try and compel the owner to put the club into administration rather than just have it carry on limping from one farce to another while the owner seemingly doesn't give a Castlemaine 4X?

I suspect there isn't but just want to know all the obvious options to get things sorted have been/are being explored.


We do have access to expertise thankfully, we are very lucky in that regard.

A decision to go into administration is not one to be taken lightly and is really an option of last resort.

You're likely looking at £3-4m of costs if an administrator would take us on. Debts are predominantly to the owner and HMRC, minority non-footballing creditors would be hugely impacted which has knock on effects into the community.

Subsidiary companies, RFC Bearwood Limited, Reading Women's Football Club and the Reading FC Community Trust would likely default into admin, also.

The only likely route for an administrator to take us on would be through keeping the club afloat via the sale of land at Bearwood (we use approx 10% of the 120 acres).

The owner remains the owner until the administration process is over and it's unlikely to be quick, straightforward and painless, not even considering the points deduction.

Helpful context. Do administrators have the authority to accept offers to buy the club? From what I can see, the biggest barrier to resolving this situation is Dai's asking price. Could administration take the ultimate decision out of his hands?

yes - that is their job. The directors lose their powers to run and control the club.

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Re: I've lost count - Embargos, HMRC Payent defaults, non payment of wages, the usual under Dai Wrongge

by 3points » 06 Nov 2023 13:44

Per the 30 June 2022 (so somewhat out of date) the amount owed by the club to group undertakings (being Renhe Sports Management, the immediate parent company) is £83m as the EFL has forced Dai to convert debt each year into equity. Assuming that number is still broadly correct then the most Dai could get back from an admin is £83m per his secured debt (assuming the charge relates only to that debt) as the equity is worthless. Clearly an administrator won't get £83m, especially as the stadium sits in a totally separate offshore legal entity.

But you have to remember the administrators' obligations are to maximise realisations. Someone interested in buying the club might decide Bearwood is worth paying £30m as a trai9ning ground. But then a property developer might look at it and say it's worth £50m. The administrator will then sell to the property developer to maximise realisations back to the secured creditor (Dai in this case).

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Re: I've lost count - Embargos, HMRC Payent defaults, non payment of wages, the usual under Dai Wrongge

by Sutekh » 06 Nov 2023 14:28

3points Per the 30 June 2022 (so somewhat out of date) the amount owed by the club to group undertakings (being Renhe Sports Management, the immediate parent company) is £83m as the EFL has forced Dai to convert debt each year into equity. Assuming that number is still broadly correct then the most Dai could get back from an admin is £83m per his secured debt (assuming the charge relates only to that debt) as the equity is worthless. Clearly an administrator won't get £83m, especially as the stadium sits in a totally separate offshore legal entity.

But you have to remember the administrators' obligations are to maximise realisations. Someone interested in buying the club might decide Bearwood is worth paying £30m as a trai9ning ground. But then a property developer might look at it and say it's worth £50m. The administrator will then sell to the property developer to maximise realisations back to the secured creditor (Dai in this case).


Hoping, that if it comes to administration, the councils involved will make it quite clear that property development is a definite non starter for either site ( or take brown envelopes so large as to make any deal impossible ).


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Re: I've lost count - Embargos, HMRC Payent defaults, non payment of wages, the usual under Dai Wrongge

by 3points » 06 Nov 2023 15:00

Sutekh
3points Per the 30 June 2022 (so somewhat out of date) the amount owed by the club to group undertakings (being Renhe Sports Management, the immediate parent company) is £83m as the EFL has forced Dai to convert debt each year into equity. Assuming that number is still broadly correct then the most Dai could get back from an admin is £83m per his secured debt (assuming the charge relates only to that debt) as the equity is worthless. Clearly an administrator won't get £83m, especially as the stadium sits in a totally separate offshore legal entity.

But you have to remember the administrators' obligations are to maximise realisations. Someone interested in buying the club might decide Bearwood is worth paying £30m as a trai9ning ground. But then a property developer might look at it and say it's worth £50m. The administrator will then sell to the property developer to maximise realisations back to the secured creditor (Dai in this case).


Hoping, that if it comes to administration, the councils involved will make it quite clear that property development is a definite non starter for either site ( or take brown envelopes so large as to make any deal impossible ).

But that's a risk a property developer takes. Given there are plans for 4,500 houses effectively across the road in the Loddon valley then, with time, I'd expect Wokingham BC to approve at least some level of development on Bearwood at some point. But I'm no planning expert or property agent so may be totally wrong.

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Re: I've lost count - Embargos, HMRC Payent defaults, non payment of wages, the usual under Dai Wrongge

by Dirk Gently » 06 Nov 2023 18:12

As an aside, it's the Football Creditors' rule (which says that football debts are to be paid off in full, ahead of any other non-secured creditors, that HMRC really objects to.

Their attitude is why should other football clubs be paid in full when the public purse may just get a few pence in the pound - which is why they have a policy of going straight for Winding Up orders when football clubs are late with tax payments. They tend to be more lenient with other industries and will often negotiate or agree payment plans - but not football club.

The other side of the coin is that football runs on credit - without it the professional game would cease to function. Quite apart from transfer fees (usually paid in instalments), the sharing of gate money at cup ties and the selling of away tickets would cease if any club wasn't 100% sure they'd get their money in the end.

Without the Football Creditors' rule, it's highly unlikely MK Dons would have agreed to play us on Saturday. They get 45% of the gate money (and the FA get 10% for the prize fund) - and with us in such a parlous financial state they need to be sure they'll get that cash (and all of it, not just a few p in each £) if we go into administration.

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Re: I've lost count - Embargos, HMRC Payent defaults, non payment of wages, the usual under Dai Wrongge

by tmesis » 06 Nov 2023 20:26

I wonder if we have any outstanding debts to other clubs.

It's so long since we've paid a transfer fee that even ones paid over a number of years are probably paid off now.

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Re: I've lost count - Embargos, HMRC Payent defaults, non payment of wages, the usual under Dai Wrongge

by Hound » 06 Nov 2023 20:50

tmesis I wonder if we have any outstanding debts to other clubs.

It's so long since we've paid a transfer fee that even ones paid over a number of years are probably paid off now.


Yeah must be youd think. Maybe some ejaria money? Possible loan fees

I think there might be more the other way, Puscas money is installments. Those young lads who moved on as well possibly


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Re: I've lost count - Embargos, HMRC Payent defaults, non payment of wages, the usual under Dai Wrongge

by 3points » 06 Nov 2023 21:09

[quote="tmesis"]I wonder if we have any outstanding debts to other clubs.

It's so long since we've paid a transfer fee that even ones paid over a number of years are probably paid off now.[/quote
Interesting point. Anyone know how many games Ejaria has played since his transfer? Is he not being played because he is close to triggering another appearance based milestone fee?

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Re: I've lost count - Embargos, HMRC Payent defaults, non payment of wages, the usual under Dai Wrongge

by Snowflake Royal » 06 Nov 2023 21:46

3points Interesting point. Anyone know how many games Ejaria has played since his transfer? Is he not being played because he is close to triggering another appearance based milestone fee?

He's not being played because he's an unfit waster.

But for the record he's on: 63(9) since his transfer to us.

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Re: I've lost count - Embargos, HMRC Payent defaults, non payment of wages, the usual under Dai Wrongge

by Silver Fox » 07 Nov 2023 10:36

Earnshaw has tweeted (X'd?) that Dai has paid the tax bill

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Re: I've lost count - Embargos, HMRC Payent defaults, non payment of wages, the usual under Dai Wrongge

by Mid Sussex Royal » 07 Nov 2023 10:53

Silver Fox Earnshaw has tweeted (X'd?) that Dai has paid the tax bill


Does this mean the latest hearing is cancelled or are we still at risk of points deduction for missing 2 payments?


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Re: I've lost count - Embargos, HMRC Payent defaults, non payment of wages, the usual under Dai Wrongge

by Hound » 07 Nov 2023 10:55

Interesting

Could be a positive sign in terms of a sale? Maybe overthinking that

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Re: I've lost count - Embargos, HMRC Payent defaults, non payment of wages, the usual under Dai Wrongge

by windermereROYAL » 07 Nov 2023 11:00

Some people speculating that Dai`s sibling has or is flying in to oversee the sale.

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Re: I've lost count - Embargos, HMRC Payent defaults, non payment of wages, the usual under Dai Wrongge

by Stranded » 07 Nov 2023 11:01

Apparently Dai's sister is/has flown in to the UK to help with a sale.

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Re: I've lost count - Embargos, HMRC Payent defaults, non payment of wages, the usual under Dai Wrongge

by Hound » 07 Nov 2023 11:11

Vaguely interesting that seemingly every time something happens ‘club sources confirm’ to multiple journalists. Very leaky nowadays

Wonder who that is

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Re: I've lost count - Embargos, HMRC Payent defaults, non payment of wages, the usual under Dai Wrongge

by traff » 07 Nov 2023 11:13

I imagine the bill has been paid to avoid the threat of administration, which would affect his ability to set his own price?

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Re: I've lost count - Embargos, HMRC Payent defaults, non payment of wages, the usual under Dai Wrongge

by windermereROYAL » 07 Nov 2023 11:27

Will the EFL charges against us be dropped now?

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Re: I've lost count - Embargos, HMRC Payent defaults, non payment of wages, the usual under Dai Wrongge

by Royalwaster » 07 Nov 2023 11:28

Snowflake Royal
3points Interesting point. Anyone know how many games Ejaria has played since his transfer? Is he not being played because he is close to triggering another appearance based milestone fee?

He's not being played because he's an unfit waster.

But for the record he's on: 63(9) since his transfer to us.


Maybe he has got significant mental health (or other) issues that we're not aware of?

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