MATCHWATCH : Carlisle United (h)

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YorkshireRoyal99
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Re: MATCHWATCH : Carlisle United (h)

by YorkshireRoyal99 » 29 Nov 2023 14:11

Snowflake Royal With much the same squad next season and all the experience.this one will bring, a stable owner and a good manager, no reason we couldn’t be top 4.

We have to stay up this season and sort out owner and manager though.


With each win though, the manager is then earning the right to stay. Not to say he will, a lot of things still against him including any change in ownership, however stable ownership and survival this year and we could easily push on next season even with Selles. Still has to earn the right to be in that position though initially.

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Re: MATCHWATCH : Carlisle United (h)

by WestYorksRoyal » 29 Nov 2023 14:19

YorkshireRoyal99
Snowflake Royal With much the same squad next season and all the experience.this one will bring, a stable owner and a good manager, no reason we couldn’t be top 4.

We have to stay up this season and sort out owner and manager though.


With each win though, the manager is then earning the right to stay. Not to say he will, a lot of things still against him including any change in ownership, however stable ownership and survival this year and we could easily push on next season even with Selles. Still has to earn the right to be in that position though initially.

He should have been sacked after Fleetwood, and nothing will change that. He's very fortunate to still be in a job, but if he uses his extra life to succeed then fair play. Let's see how the table is after Exeter on New Year's Day - out of the bottom 4 and he's definitely earned another chance.

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Re: MATCHWATCH : Carlisle United (h)

by bcubed » 29 Nov 2023 14:55

stealthpapes
Snowflake Royal
Winston Biscuit I wonder what it's like living in Carlisle. Loads of great countryside nearby so probs gr8 if you've got money and time, but also probs gash if you are young and looking to make your way in life

I thought it was surprisingly ok when I went a few years ago. But yeah probably not that much work.


There's a few big firms on the outskirts - several glue companies, of all things. Whitehaven and Workington along the coast would be worse, although the latter is becoming a hub for a lot of our renewable energy manufacturing.

Historically, Carlisle was the site of a lot of the UK's munitions factories, or at least the workers for them, and pubs there were effectively nationalised in 1916 (a temporary measure that was only lifted in 1971 ... ). This, in turn, ties into the relatively low number and poor quality of city centre boozers.

Its clearly got a huge drug problem if you look beyond the rather pretty city centre.

When the return fixture comes, it's a cracking away day. For those who want to drink, I can recommend the Settle to Carlisle train across the Dales. Perfect train beer scenery.




Had a night out in Whitehaven some years back. Grim

Clyde1998
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Re: MATCHWATCH : Carlisle United (h)

by Clyde1998 » 29 Nov 2023 15:23

Great win last night. Much needed against a side in the relegation zone, especially with the scale of the result. Agree with others that I don't think we're playing much better than we've been this season, but we are taking chances now and not making as many defensive errors - certainly seems to be more mental toughness. I feel like we've been playing as a mid-table side this season and we're starting to get the results of a mid-table side. The players certainly look a lot more confident now.

Shame we've got to wait until Saturday week until our next league game. Our run of games until Boxing Day will give us a good idea of how good we actually are: Barnsley (H; 7th), Oxford (H; 3rd); Lincoln (A; 9th); Wigan (H; 14th); Peterborough (A; 5th). Wigan would be tenth without their points deduction. If we can get a decent points haul from that run, we'll be fine.

Onwards to Eastleigh on Sunday.

Relegation chance: 52% -> 29%

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Re: MATCHWATCH : Carlisle United (h)

by leon » 29 Nov 2023 15:56

Clyde1998 Great win last night. Much needed against a side in the relegation zone, especially with the scale of the result. Agree with others that I don't think we're playing much better than we've been this season, but we are taking chances now and not making as many defensive errors - certainly seems to be more mental toughness. I feel like we've been playing as a mid-table side this season and we're starting to get the results of a mid-table side. The players certainly look a lot more confident now.

Shame we've got to wait until Saturday week until our next league game. Our run of games until Boxing Day will give us a good idea of how good we actually are: Barnsley (H; 7th), Oxford (H; 3rd); Lincoln (A; 9th); Wigan (H; 14th); Peterborough (A; 5th). Wigan would be tenth without their points deduction. If we can get a decent points haul from that run, we'll be fine.

Onwards to Eastleigh on Sunday.

Relegation chance: 52% -> 29%


wow 29% - really? We're 6 points adrift ffs


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Re: MATCHWATCH : Carlisle United (h)

by Snowflake Royal » 29 Nov 2023 17:03

YorkshireRoyal99
Snowflake Royal With much the same squad next season and all the experience.this one will bring, a stable owner and a good manager, no reason we couldn’t be top 4.

We have to stay up this season and sort out owner and manager though.


With each win though, the manager is then earning the right to stay. Not to say he will, a lot of things still against him including any change in ownership, however stable ownership and survival this year and we could easily push on next season even with Selles. Still has to earn the right to be in that position though initially.

We would not finish top 10 with Selles next season, he's dreadful.

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Re: MATCHWATCH : Carlisle United (h)

by Snowflake Royal » 29 Nov 2023 17:05

leon
Clyde1998 Great win last night. Much needed against a side in the relegation zone, especially with the scale of the result. Agree with others that I don't think we're playing much better than we've been this season, but we are taking chances now and not making as many defensive errors - certainly seems to be more mental toughness. I feel like we've been playing as a mid-table side this season and we're starting to get the results of a mid-table side. The players certainly look a lot more confident now.

Shame we've got to wait until Saturday week until our next league game. Our run of games until Boxing Day will give us a good idea of how good we actually are: Barnsley (H; 7th), Oxford (H; 3rd); Lincoln (A; 9th); Wigan (H; 14th); Peterborough (A; 5th). Wigan would be tenth without their points deduction. If we can get a decent points haul from that run, we'll be fine.

Onwards to Eastleigh on Sunday.

Relegation chance: 52% -> 29%


wow 29% - really? We're 6 points adrift ffs

Yeah, that's bonkers. 45% at best

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Re: MATCHWATCH : Carlisle United (h)

by WestYorksRoyal » 29 Nov 2023 17:07

Snowflake Royal
leon
Clyde1998 Great win last night. Much needed against a side in the relegation zone, especially with the scale of the result. Agree with others that I don't think we're playing much better than we've been this season, but we are taking chances now and not making as many defensive errors - certainly seems to be more mental toughness. I feel like we've been playing as a mid-table side this season and we're starting to get the results of a mid-table side. The players certainly look a lot more confident now.

Shame we've got to wait until Saturday week until our next league game. Our run of games until Boxing Day will give us a good idea of how good we actually are: Barnsley (H; 7th), Oxford (H; 3rd); Lincoln (A; 9th); Wigan (H; 14th); Peterborough (A; 5th). Wigan would be tenth without their points deduction. If we can get a decent points haul from that run, we'll be fine.

Onwards to Eastleigh on Sunday.

Relegation chance: 52% -> 29%


wow 29% - really? We're 6 points adrift ffs

Yeah, that's bonkers. 45% at best

Is the Rouge-o-meter back?

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Re: MATCHWATCH : Carlisle United (h)

by Snowflake Royal » 29 Nov 2023 17:14

WestYorksRoyal
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leon
wow 29% - really? We're 6 points adrift ffs

Yeah, that's bonkers. 45% at best

Is the Rouge-o-meter back?

I hope not, every attempted revival has been lame as oxf*rd sadly.


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Re: MATCHWATCH : Carlisle United (h)

by Vision » 29 Nov 2023 17:55

Stranded
WestYorksRoyal I'm getting carried away when I know I shouldn't, but if they do get themselves out of trouble it would be huge for this bunch of players. The likes of Abbey, Bindon and Craig would have played a huge part in turning the club around from its lowest moment. What challenges would phase them in the future?

But we've got a long way to go yet.


You would hope that his is part of the man management messaging getting across to the players. If you can turn this club around on the pitch from its lowest ebb whilst there are troubles off the pitch, then wherever you go in your career that achievement will stay with you.


"Lads if you can turn this around with me as your manager then there's nothing you can't do in the future"

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Snowflake Royal
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Re: MATCHWATCH : Carlisle United (h)

by Snowflake Royal » 29 Nov 2023 18:00

Vision
Stranded
WestYorksRoyal I'm getting carried away when I know I shouldn't, but if they do get themselves out of trouble it would be huge for this bunch of players. The likes of Abbey, Bindon and Craig would have played a huge part in turning the club around from its lowest moment. What challenges would phase them in the future?

But we've got a long way to go yet.


You would hope that his is part of the man management messaging getting across to the players. If you can turn this club around on the pitch from its lowest ebb whilst there are troubles off the pitch, then wherever you go in your career that achievement will stay with you.


"Lads if you can turn this around with me as your manager then there's nothing you can't do in the future"
:lol:

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Re: MATCHWATCH : Carlisle United (h)

by Hound » 29 Nov 2023 18:01

Vision
Stranded
WestYorksRoyal I'm getting carried away when I know I shouldn't, but if they do get themselves out of trouble it would be huge for this bunch of players. The likes of Abbey, Bindon and Craig would have played a huge part in turning the club around from its lowest moment. What challenges would phase them in the future?

But we've got a long way to go yet.


You would hope that his is part of the man management messaging getting across to the players. If you can turn this club around on the pitch from its lowest ebb whilst there are troubles off the pitch, then wherever you go in your career that achievement will stay with you.


"Lads if you can turn this around with me as your manager then there's nothing you can't do in the future"


And he’d have a fair point

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Re: MATCHWATCH : Carlisle United (h)

by Clyde1998 » 29 Nov 2023 18:23

leon
Clyde1998 Great win last night. Much needed against a side in the relegation zone, especially with the scale of the result. Agree with others that I don't think we're playing much better than we've been this season, but we are taking chances now and not making as many defensive errors - certainly seems to be more mental toughness. I feel like we've been playing as a mid-table side this season and we're starting to get the results of a mid-table side. The players certainly look a lot more confident now.

Shame we've got to wait until Saturday week until our next league game. Our run of games until Boxing Day will give us a good idea of how good we actually are: Barnsley (H; 7th), Oxford (H; 3rd); Lincoln (A; 9th); Wigan (H; 14th); Peterborough (A; 5th). Wigan would be tenth without their points deduction. If we can get a decent points haul from that run, we'll be fine.

Onwards to Eastleigh on Sunday.

Relegation chance: 52% -> 29%


wow 29% - really? We're 6 points adrift ffs

There's a number of factors as to why it's dropped so much.

It's first of all worth pointing out that the central forecast is for us to finish 19th - so we've gone from clearly being relegation favourites to relegation isn't an issue. The average points for us is 47.9, compared to 44.8 for (projected) 21st-placed Shrewsbury - so that's only just over a win above the relegation zone by the end of the season.

Net xG is used to project future results:

Net xG per game (sourced from Fotmob) - Team / xGF / xGA / xGD
  1. Peterborough / 1.77 / 0.91 / +0.86
  2. Portsmouth / 1.71 / 1.04 / +0.67
  3. Derby / 1.43 / 0.95 / +0.48 / +0.48
  4. Blackpool / 1.43 / 1.00 / +0.43
  5. Bolton / 1.40 / 1.05 / +0.35
  6. Oxford / 1.23 / 0.88 / +0.34
  7. Charlton / 1.42 / 1.16 / +0.27
  8. Lincoln / 1.11 / 0.99 / +0.11
  9. Stevenage / 1.20 / 1.10 / +0.10
  10. Reading / 1.17 / 1.13 / +0.04
  11. Leyton Orient / 1.11 / 1.10 / +0.01
  12. Bristol Rovers / 1.06 / 1.08 / -0.02
  13. Barnsley / 1.31 / 1.37 / -0.06
  14. Northampton / 0.96 / 1.08 / -0.12
  15. Wycombe / 1.05 / 1.22 / -0.17
  16. Port Vale / 0.97 / 1.15 / -0.18
  17. Carlisle / 0.87 / 1.13 / -0.26
  18. Fleetwood / 1.09 / 1.37 / -0.27
  19. Cambridge / 0.92 / 1.21 / -0.29
  20. Burton / 0.92 / 1.21 / -0.29
  21. Exeter / 1.01 / 1.35 / -0.34
  22. Wigan / 0.98 / 1.40 / -0.42
  23. Shrewsbury / 0.67 / 1.28 / -0.61
  24. Cheltenham / 0.76 / 1.38 / -0.62
Our net xG is noticeably better than most of the sides around us, which means the model I'm using projects us picking up more points over the rest of the season that the sides around us.

The other factor is points on the board. Whilst we've been more likely to pick up points in future matches, based on our xG, actually having points on the board is more important to our chances of survival - actually winning a game is better than having a 2/3rds chances of winning a game. Getting the wins over the past couple of matches means we've converted games we're projected to get points in into actual points (on top of slightly improving our net xG).

Relegation chance
  1. Cheltenham / 78% (42% chance of finishing bottom)
  2. Cambridge / 55%
  3. Shrewsbury / 50%
  4. Fleetwood / 48%
  5. Carlisle / 41%
  6. Exeter / 31%
  7. Reading / 29%
  8. Port Vale / 22%
  9. Burton / 21%
  10. Wigan / 13%
  11. Leyton Orient / 4%
  12. Northampton / 4%
  13. Wycombe / 2%
  14. Bristol Rovers / 2%
Of these, I'd say anyone with a relegation chance of Wigan or worse should still be concerned about getting relegated. What we've done is the past couple of games is move from a side that looks certain to be relegated to a side that will be in the relegation picture, but more likely to stay up than go down.

Shrewsbury are an interesting flip side to us: currently 12th, but expected to be relegated half the time due to their performances this season. Generally sides drift towards their net xG as the season goes on, so Shrewsbury could be a side that falls down the league in the second half of the season.


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Re: MATCHWATCH : Carlisle United (h)

by Brogue » 29 Nov 2023 18:30

Re mola I’m sure he’s a decent footballer it’s just fcuking hard for such young players to come into the shambles we are in. If we had started well playing decent football and been at the higher end of the table I’m sure he would have been fine.

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Re: MATCHWATCH : Carlisle United (h)

by YorkshireRoyal99 » 30 Nov 2023 08:46

Brogue Re mola I’m sure he’s a decent footballer it’s just fcuking hard for such young players to come into the shambles we are in. If we had started well playing decent football and been at the higher end of the table I’m sure he would have been fine.


I'm not sure how much of a pre-season he got with Stuttgart either and he joined us on 1st September, so he may have been several weeks behind when he first joined. We've seen with the likes of Smith and Wing, it's taken them several games/weeks to get up to speed and match fit as well. I think there is a decent footballer there and I think he could establish himself as our starting LB in time, although he needs to show a hell of a lot more than he has so far. That spot in the team is certainly up for grabs.

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Re: MATCHWATCH : Carlisle United (h)

by leon » 30 Nov 2023 23:05

YorkshireRoyal99
Brogue Re mola I’m sure he’s a decent footballer it’s just fcuking hard for such young players to come into the shambles we are in. If we had started well playing decent football and been at the higher end of the table I’m sure he would have been fine.


I'm not sure how much of a pre-season he got with Stuttgart either and he joined us on 1st September, so he may have been several weeks behind when he first joined. We've seen with the likes of Smith and Wing, it's taken them several games/weeks to get up to speed and match fit as well. I think there is a decent footballer there and I think he could establish himself as our starting LB in time, although he needs to show a hell of a lot more than he has so far. That spot in the team is certainly up for grabs.


Dorsett looks the part. If he plays a few more games in the same vein as Tuesday then we are sorted. Good to have competition mind you.

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Re: MATCHWATCH : Carlisle United (h)

by YorkshireRoyal99 » 01 Dec 2023 08:46

leon
YorkshireRoyal99
Brogue Re mola I’m sure he’s a decent footballer it’s just fcuking hard for such young players to come into the shambles we are in. If we had started well playing decent football and been at the higher end of the table I’m sure he would have been fine.


I'm not sure how much of a pre-season he got with Stuttgart either and he joined us on 1st September, so he may have been several weeks behind when he first joined. We've seen with the likes of Smith and Wing, it's taken them several games/weeks to get up to speed and match fit as well. I think there is a decent footballer there and I think he could establish himself as our starting LB in time, although he needs to show a hell of a lot more than he has so far. That spot in the team is certainly up for grabs.


Dorsett looks the part. If he plays a few more games in the same vein as Tuesday then we are sorted. Good to have competition mind you.


Yep I agree, Dorsett has looked solid there so far so I can't see us changing that at the moment, although it's definitely not set at the moment so there is still an opportunity for somebody, but Dorsett has looked the pick of the bunch to be fair. I wouldn't have expected that pre-season either in fairness.

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Re: MATCHWATCH : Carlisle United (h)

by Mr Angry » 01 Dec 2023 17:29

Clyde1998
leon
Clyde1998 Great win last night. Much needed against a side in the relegation zone, especially with the scale of the result. Agree with others that I don't think we're playing much better than we've been this season, but we are taking chances now and not making as many defensive errors - certainly seems to be more mental toughness. I feel like we've been playing as a mid-table side this season and we're starting to get the results of a mid-table side. The players certainly look a lot more confident now.

Shame we've got to wait until Saturday week until our next league game. Our run of games until Boxing Day will give us a good idea of how good we actually are: Barnsley (H; 7th), Oxford (H; 3rd); Lincoln (A; 9th); Wigan (H; 14th); Peterborough (A; 5th). Wigan would be tenth without their points deduction. If we can get a decent points haul from that run, we'll be fine.

Onwards to Eastleigh on Sunday.

Relegation chance: 52% -> 29%


wow 29% - really? We're 6 points adrift ffs

There's a number of factors as to why it's dropped so much.

It's first of all worth pointing out that the central forecast is for us to finish 19th - so we've gone from clearly being relegation favourites to relegation isn't an issue. The average points for us is 47.9, compared to 44.8 for (projected) 21st-placed Shrewsbury - so that's only just over a win above the relegation zone by the end of the season.

Net xG is used to project future results:

Net xG per game (sourced from Fotmob) - Team / xGF / xGA / xGD
  1. Peterborough / 1.77 / 0.91 / +0.86
  2. Portsmouth / 1.71 / 1.04 / +0.67
  3. Derby / 1.43 / 0.95 / +0.48 / +0.48
  4. Blackpool / 1.43 / 1.00 / +0.43
  5. Bolton / 1.40 / 1.05 / +0.35
  6. Oxford / 1.23 / 0.88 / +0.34
  7. Charlton / 1.42 / 1.16 / +0.27
  8. Lincoln / 1.11 / 0.99 / +0.11
  9. Stevenage / 1.20 / 1.10 / +0.10
  10. Reading / 1.17 / 1.13 / +0.04
  11. Leyton Orient / 1.11 / 1.10 / +0.01
  12. Bristol Rovers / 1.06 / 1.08 / -0.02
  13. Barnsley / 1.31 / 1.37 / -0.06
  14. Northampton / 0.96 / 1.08 / -0.12
  15. Wycombe / 1.05 / 1.22 / -0.17
  16. Port Vale / 0.97 / 1.15 / -0.18
  17. Carlisle / 0.87 / 1.13 / -0.26
  18. Fleetwood / 1.09 / 1.37 / -0.27
  19. Cambridge / 0.92 / 1.21 / -0.29
  20. Burton / 0.92 / 1.21 / -0.29
  21. Exeter / 1.01 / 1.35 / -0.34
  22. Wigan / 0.98 / 1.40 / -0.42
  23. Shrewsbury / 0.67 / 1.28 / -0.61
  24. Cheltenham / 0.76 / 1.38 / -0.62
Our net xG is noticeably better than most of the sides around us, which means the model I'm using projects us picking up more points over the rest of the season that the sides around us.

The other factor is points on the board. Whilst we've been more likely to pick up points in future matches, based on our xG, actually having points on the board is more important to our chances of survival - actually winning a game is better than having a 2/3rds chances of winning a game. Getting the wins over the past couple of matches means we've converted games we're projected to get points in into actual points (on top of slightly improving our net xG).

Relegation chance
  1. Cheltenham / 78% (42% chance of finishing bottom)
  2. Cambridge / 55%
  3. Shrewsbury / 50%
  4. Fleetwood / 48%
  5. Carlisle / 41%
  6. Exeter / 31%
  7. Reading / 29%
  8. Port Vale / 22%
  9. Burton / 21%
  10. Wigan / 13%
  11. Leyton Orient / 4%
  12. Northampton / 4%
  13. Wycombe / 2%
  14. Bristol Rovers / 2%
Of these, I'd say anyone with a relegation chance of Wigan or worse should still be concerned about getting relegated. What we've done is the past couple of games is move from a side that looks certain to be relegated to a side that will be in the relegation picture, but more likely to stay up than go down.

Shrewsbury are an interesting flip side to us: currently 12th, but expected to be relegated half the time due to their performances this season. Generally sides drift towards their net xG as the season goes on, so Shrewsbury could be a side that falls down the league in the second half of the season.


Is there any empirical evidence for this model? For example, can you retrospectively view last season in League One (and the previous 2 or 3 seasons) at a similar stage and and see a similar pattern as to the eventual relegation outcomes? If not, then (and i am not knocking it) the model is - at best - an interesting exercise but not one to base too much expectation of accuracy on.

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Re: MATCHWATCH : Carlisle United (h)

by tmesis » 01 Dec 2023 21:31

Mr Angry
Is there any empirical evidence for this model? For example, can you retrospectively view last season in League One (and the previous 2 or 3 seasons) at a similar stage and and see a similar pattern as to the eventual relegation outcomes? If not, then (and i am not knocking it) the model is - at best - an interesting exercise but not one to base too much expectation of accuracy on.

Indeed. I think people put far too much weight into these stats.

I mean, if your xG suggests you have 30 goals by now, but you've only got 15, it might just show that your strikers are a bit crap, and that's not going to change.

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Re: MATCHWATCH : Carlisle United (h)

by WestYorksRoyal » 01 Dec 2023 22:02

tmesis
Mr Angry
Is there any empirical evidence for this model? For example, can you retrospectively view last season in League One (and the previous 2 or 3 seasons) at a similar stage and and see a similar pattern as to the eventual relegation outcomes? If not, then (and i am not knocking it) the model is - at best - an interesting exercise but not one to base too much expectation of accuracy on.

Indeed. I think people put far too much weight into these stats.

I mean, if your xG suggests you have 30 goals by now, but you've only got 15, it might just show that your strikers are a bit crap, and that's not going to change.

Generally, the teams who create more chances will do better long term. You get streaks in either direction caused by confidence or a bit of luck, but it's rarely sustained. Looking at the opposite scenario, in 20/21 we were massively outperforming xG up until Christmas because Joao was on fire and scored a lot of goals out of nothing, but we couldn't sustain it when he dropped off.

Now it feels like the opposite. We've been underperforming it because of what is mostly confidence and a mental block. But now we have a couple of wins, Smith, Wing, Knibbs and Azeez seem to be coming into form. I would expect a corrective run of form.

Sorry, I don't have data. But teams who create more chances winning more games is logical enough.

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