The phoenix club thread

[Hendo]

Looking at AFC Wimbledon's rise, they had an insane multi season run of 78 games unbeaten as they won back to back titles. Not sure how fun that sounds; you need jeopardy and a sense of achievement. You'd just want to get through the 7th, 8th and 9th tiers as quickly as possible.

After the last few years, it sounds fucking great.

[WestYorksRoyal]

I'm not even sure how professional it is at the lower tiers. Most NL teams are fully professional now, but are a few still part time? Even at full time clubs, it's a precarious career. Shorter term contracts on modest pay, but the flip side is it's easy to leave if a bigger club wants you. And not loads of transfer revenue for clubs to make.

Then NL north and south I'd expect a few full time clubs where they have enough backing, but mostly semi pro. And then it just gets less and less professional the lower you go.

Presumably it's a mix of older players who almost see it as a hobby which brings in a bit of income in their match fee, young ones hoping to get scouted and climb up and loanees from nearby professional clubs.

Scouting and recruitment would be a different ball game, nobody is going to up sticks for a part time job. The club would need to be run by people who know the environment. Can't imagine Kia Joorabchians ruining the game at that level.

[Snowflake Royal]

I do have money set aside for this, but when we finally get dissolved I honestly won’t have any appetite left for football whatsoever.

I will have over 50 years of memories some great and some not so good and that’ll be enough for me. If I watch any sport it’ll probably be the Royal Wootton Bassett rugby team and a couple of family members who are boxers. Plus, I am partial to American football.

If we could work out the details in a unified way and someone 'reliable' like STAR led and could maybe get the likes of Howe involved.

Then I'd probably chuck in £2/3k.

If its a disorganised shambles led by SBWD, I'm not trusting them with my money.

Agree in that I'd need to have confidence in the new outfit before investing, but for me the bar is somewhat higher than STAR and Nigel f*cking Howe. That lot couldn't organise a piss up in brewery.

My main concern is my money being used for the purpose it was given. Not how well it is used.

If you want a lot better than that, you might as well just say you flat out won't contribute.

[Green]

If we could work out the details in a unified way and someone 'reliable' like STAR led and could maybe get the likes of Howe involved.

Then I'd probably chuck in £2/3k.

If its a disorganised shambles led by SBWD, I'm not trusting them with my money.

Agree in that I'd need to have confidence in the new outfit before investing, but for me the bar is somewhat higher than STAR and Nigel f*cking Howe. That lot couldn't organise a piss up in brewery.

My main concern is my money being used for the purpose it was given. Not how well it is used.

If you want a lot better than that, you might as well just say you flat out won't contribute.

I think you're jumping ahead somewhat. When there is something to contribute to I'll make a decision.

(The current "buy more tickets so we can prop up corrupt millionaire Dai" is a no, fwiw)

[Uke]

I reckon Peter Kay will have the answer to most of your questions.

The Phoenix Club will rise up like a snake...

[Snowflake Royal]

Agree in that I'd need to have confidence in the new outfit before investing, but for me the bar is somewhat higher than STAR and Nigel f*cking Howe. That lot couldn't organise a piss up in brewery.

My main concern is my money being used for the purpose it was given. Not how well it is used.

If you want a lot better than that, you might as well just say you flat out won't contribute.

I think you're jumping ahead somewhat. When there is something to contribute to I'll make a decision.

(The current "buy more tickets so we can prop up corrupt millionaire Dai" is a no, fwiw)

Agree

[tmesis]

Depends where a space can be conveniently found with least "disruption" so it would likely be tier 9/10. Bury and Macclesfield both started at Tier 9 (NWCLPremier)

Bury started at 10, because they were playing outside their town, and had a few more question marks against them than Macclesfield.

Reading starting at 8 couldn't be ruled out, but it's all still very premature. We obviously aren't quite dead yet, and we have no idea what from any reformed club would take.

[Dirk Gently]

Depends where a space can be conveniently found with least "disruption" so it would likely be tier 9/10. Bury and Macclesfield both started at Tier 9 (NWCLPremier) which, down here, would equate to the Hellenic Premier or, more likely, the CCL Premier North with progression being most likely up through the Isthmian South & Central followed by the Southern League Premier South (same route as Bracknell have taken).

Not necessarily. The FA's Fixtures Committee decides the most appropriate place for a club to start, and also takes into account whether the clubs is a wholly new one or a "continuation of a previous club". The new Chester FC started at Step 8, NPL, for instance.

Community-ownership is a subject very close to my heart.

[Sutekh]

Looking at AFC Wimbledon's rise, they had an insane multi season run of 78 games unbeaten as they won back to back titles. Not sure how fun that sounds; you need jeopardy and a sense of achievement. You'd just want to get through the 7th, 8th and 9th tiers as quickly as possible.

After the last few years, it sounds fucking great.

Funny, don't recall them winning the FA Cup and FA Vase/Trophy in that time.

[tmesis]

Looking at AFC Wimbledon's rise, they had an insane multi season run of 78 games unbeaten as they won back to back titles. Not sure how fun that sounds; you need jeopardy and a sense of achievement. You'd just want to get through the 7th, 8th and 9th tiers as quickly as possible.

After the last few years, it sounds fucking great.

Funny, don't recall them winning the FA Cup and FA Vase/Trophy in that time.

I think you can't enter for your first year or two

[Winston Biscuit]

Can we at least have some fun with knocking up a badge for the new phoenix club?

I would be bang up for it and would happily get involved early doors. Would probs have a modest amount to put in too, though as others have said, I would want to see who was in charge of spending it first.

[SCIAG]

I do have money set aside for this, but when we finally get dissolved I honestly won’t have any appetite left for football whatsoever.

I will have over 50 years of memories some great and some not so good and that’ll be enough for me. If I watch any sport it’ll probably be the Royal Wootton Bassett rugby team and a couple of family members who are boxers. Plus, I am partial to American football.

If we could work out the details in a unified way and someone 'reliable' like STAR led and could maybe get the likes of Howe involved.

Then I'd probably chuck in £2/3k.

If its a disorganised shambles led by SBWD, I'm not trusting them with my money.

The "reliable" STAR lot you're referring to are in their 60s and in varying stages of stepping back, ranging from "I'll stay on for a few years to show the new people the ropes" to "I've retired to the countryside and switched to supporting my local non-league side". No disrespect to that generation, many of whom have been around since the foundation in 2002, but there's a big jump between something like STAR and a non-league football club and I'm not sure they'd want the hassle.

The young blood coming through at STAR is basically the same people as SBWD, which isn't surprising really.

A phoenix club might pull some people back into the fold I suppose (at least one of whom has posted in this thread!).

[morganb]

Can we at least have some fun with knocking up a badge for the new phoenix club?

So long as you don't take it too literally - The Aldershot Town badge is actually a phoenix. It was designed by the comedy actor Arthur English (from Are You Being Served?)

[Snowflake Royal]

I do have money set aside for this, but when we finally get dissolved I honestly won’t have any appetite left for football whatsoever.

I will have over 50 years of memories some great and some not so good and that’ll be enough for me. If I watch any sport it’ll probably be the Royal Wootton Bassett rugby team and a couple of family members who are boxers. Plus, I am partial to American football.

If we could work out the details in a unified way and someone 'reliable' like STAR led and could maybe get the likes of Howe involved.

Then I'd probably chuck in £2/3k.

If its a disorganised shambles led by SBWD, I'm not trusting them with my money.

The "reliable" STAR lot you're referring to are in their 60s and in varying stages of stepping back, ranging from "I'll stay on for a few years to show the new people the ropes" to "I've retired to the countryside and switched to supporting my local non-league side". No disrespect to that generation, many of whom have been around since the foundation in 2002, but there's a big jump between something like STAR and a non-league football club and I'm not sure they'd want the hassle.

The young blood coming through at STAR is basically the same people as SBWD, which isn't surprising really.

A phoenix club might pull some people back into the fold I suppose (at least one of whom has posted in this thread!).

Again, not saying they should run the club, hence mentioning the likes of Howe, but as a more reliably secure way, organisationally rather than individually, to ensure my money went where it was supposed to, rather than line Captain Tom's Grandaughter's nest egg.

Ie, an existing organisation with a degree of legitimacy, transparency and accountability. Not a bunch of chancers randomly setting up a half arsed go fund me that they'll decide to use for something else.

[SouthDownsRoyal]

Any new club won’t be Reading fc so I’m out

I can't dispute what is your opinion, but my own experience with
Newport County began with me thinking as you do, but, ultimately,
I became MORE of a fan, more involved, and more committed, than
before the crash.

Aren’t you a Reading fan though?

[Snowball]

Any new club won’t be Reading fc so I’m out

I can't dispute what is your opinion, but my own experience with
Newport County began with me thinking as you do, but, ultimately,
I became MORE of a fan, more involved, and more committed, than
before the crash.

Aren’t you a Reading fan though?

Both (but support Reading v Newport)

Born and bred in Newport, followed them in the dark, DARK days
(and that was when we weren't broke!)

If I lived in Newport I'd be there for every home game. If I lived
in Reading, I'd be at the SCL every home game.

But I ent.

[Dirk Gently]

The idea of fans directly running the club is laughable and always ends in disaster, and people suggesting that don't really understand the concept or support/community ownership.

The successful way to do this (for instance AFCW's model, and also the model of a community-owned professional club I'm very involved in right now, is that there are two organisations - the Trust or community-ownership board and the football club board itself.

The legal entity to which members contribute and elect board members (let's call it the Trust, but it needn't legally be a Trust) is the one that holds the shares of the football club, and appoints directors to the legal entity which is the football club.

Those directors get on with the job of running the football club on a day-to-day basis, including appointing managers, setting ticket prices etc, etc. There's then proper segregation of duties and confidentiality and the football club people can get on with their jobs - they have a duty to report back to the Trust board and act within the guidelines given, but this arm's length model is the only realistic one that works - otherwise you get fans trying to intervene in day-to-day stuff, or (as happened at Rushton & Diamonds, for instance) fans posting confidential business and team news onto message boards so they could be first with the news.

tldr: This is only successful if it's "Supporter owned" - not "Supporter run"

[WestYorksRoyal]

Some big European clubs in crisis are fan led. Barcelona have presidents elected by fans and have been hurt by stupid populist promises. Schalke in Germany have a similar story.

You'd hope a phoenix club would vote more sensibly, but it's easy enough to imagine a generation of supporters 25 years down the line without memories of the current mess who are willing to elect someone who promises the earth and it all ending in disaster.

[Dirk Gently]

Some big European clubs in crisis are fan led. Barcelona have presidents elected by fans and have been hurt by stupid populist promises. Schalke in Germany have a similar story.

You'd hope a phoenix club would vote more sensibly, but it's easy enough to imagine a generation of supporters 25 years down the line without memories of the current mess who are willing to elect someone who promises the earth and it all ending in disaster.

Not sure I'd say they are fan "led" - in Spain they are owned by members but the president wields all the power between elections, and for the big two there it's all about promising to spend money and win trophies that gets a president elected.

And while Schalke are fan-owned because of the 50+1 rule in Germany, they made some bad decisions and turned into a yo-yo club with a couple of relegations, but seem to show a mentality that insists they spend like a top tier club, all of which is building up debt. There problem is that if they go down again their level of debt is too big for the third tier, so that'll be their doom.

For both of these clubs, it's the mentality that's the problem - although they're fan-owned in name, they don't seem to be able to recognise that the world has changed from what they once were, and refuse to "cut their cloth" accordingly. A properly constituted fan-owned club with the right attitude and realistic aspirations wouldn't have such problems.

[Snowflake Royal]

The idea of fans directly running the club is laughable and always ends in disaster, and people suggesting that don't really understand the concept or support/community ownership.

The successful way to do this (for instance AFCW's model, and also the model of a community-owned professional club I'm very involved in right now, is that there are two organisations - the Trust or community-ownership board and the football club board itself.

The legal entity to which members contribute and elect board members (let's call it the Trust, but it needn't legally be a Trust) is the one that holds the shares of the football club, and appoints directors to the legal entity which is the football club.

Those directors get on with the job of running the football club on a day-to-day basis, including appointing managers, setting ticket prices etc, etc. There's then proper segregation of duties and confidentiality and the football club people can get on with their jobs - they have a duty to report back to the Trust board and act within the guidelines given, but this arm's length model is the only realistic one that works - otherwise you get fans trying to intervene in day-to-day stuff, or (as happened at Rushton & Diamonds, for instance) fans posting confidential business and team news onto message boards so they could be first with the news.

tldr: This is only successful if it's "Supporter owned" - not "Supporter run"

I didn't think anyone suggested it should be supporter run, that'd be a clustershambles.