Safe-standing areas - TIME FOR ACTION

[T.R.O.L.I.]

I'd say that was fairly conclusive.

[St Pauli]

The new terrace shown in the Dresden ground isn't any different to the old terraces, and it's still safe. When the FSF talk about safe standing do they mean the picture with the red seats on this thread or the Dresden type without seats?

[Ian Royal]

I'd say that was fairly conclusive.

But we should all just ignore what we and most other supporters want because it's never going to happen, according to Paul anyway.

[Red]

Even if the law changes is there really an appitite at RFC to introduce standing?

I remember when the mad stad was being built there was talk of a law change, and the club said even if that happened they'd still go 100% all seater. Ultimately they've been very commercially successful in marketing themselves as a family club - and the number of women and kids you see there must have increased 10 fold from Elm Park.

Not saying women and kids don't want to stand of course...but you can see that for a club that tries to be family friendly, introducing terracing isn't going to sit very easily with that image.

[Svlad Cjelli]

Even if the law changes is there really an appitite at RFC to introduce standing?

I remember when the mad stad was being built there was talk of a law change, and the club said even if that happened they'd still go 100% all seater. Ultimately they've been very commercially successful in marketing themselves as a family club - and the number of women and kids you see there must have increased 10 fold from Elm Park.

Not saying women and kids don't want to stand of course...but you can see that for a club that tries to be family friendly, introducing terracing isn't going to sit very easily with that image.

Who knows, but see the financial justification I posted a few pages back.

But until we get the law changed it's irrelevant whether they want it or not - once we get the law changed we can work with individual clubs.

[Mr Angry]

As someone who likes all seater stadia, I think that there should be designated standing areas for both home and away fans at gorunds; therefore, those who want to stand have a place to do so; those that don't won't have their view obscured by a load of selfish pcunts. Those that want to stand will have - on their ticket - a waiver from taking legal action against the club, or the Police, in the event of injury caused by being in the standing area.

Furthermore, if that set up were to happen, then I would expect the stewarding to be a lot less relaxed in sitting areas for those who choose to persistently stand.

1 final thing; if it does come to pass, then I hope those who are advocating this will realise that if any fan dies on the terrace, it will be on THEIR conscience.

[Red]

Who knows, but see the financial justification I posted a few pages back.

Saw that but didn't see anything about potential lost revenue through parents with young children being put off by an atmosphere they perceive as more family unfriendly.

[Gloria Gooner]

As someone who likes all seater stadia, I think that there should be designated standing areas for both home and away fans at gorunds; therefore, those who want to stand have a place to do so; those that don't won't have their view obscured by a load of selfish pcunts. Those that want to stand will have - on their ticket - a waiver from taking legal action against the club, or the Police, in the event of injury caused by being in the standing area.

Furthermore, if that set up were to happen, then I would expect the stewarding to be a lot less relaxed in sitting areas for those who choose to persistently stand.

1 final thing; if it does come to pass, then I hope those who are advocating this will realise that if any fan dies on the terrace, it will be on THEIR conscience.

Exactly this.

[Red]

That's utterly ridiculous Mr A and Glo. Even if it were inherently dangerous to stand whilst watching football - giving people that choice is not the same thing as killing people, you're still responsible for your own actions.

If I open a pub am I responsible if one of my customers becomes an alcoholic?

[Svlad Cjelli]

As someone who likes all seater stadia, I think that there should be designated standing areas for both home and away fans at gorunds; therefore, those who want to stand have a place to do so; those that don't won't have their view obscured by a load of selfish pcunts. Those that want to stand will have - on their ticket - a waiver from taking legal action against the club, or the Police, in the event of injury caused by being in the standing area.

Furthermore, if that set up were to happen, then I would expect the stewarding to be a lot less relaxed in sitting areas for those who choose to persistently stand.

1 final thing; if it does come to pass, then I hope those who are advocating this will realise that if any fan dies on the terrace, it will be on THEIR conscience.

Exactly this.

Ermmm, but all the statistics show do discernible difference between the rate of accidents in standing and seated areas - the figures that the FLA used for years have been proven to be false and are now completely discredited, although it looks like the false perception that was peddled for years seems to have stuck with some. So I'm not sure how relevant the first paragraph is, as it's based on this totally false perception.

If you look at accident statistics, the most dangerous times at games are before and after the matches, when large numbers of people are moving in and out (no difference in the type of accommodation, BTW), and the most frequent cause of accidents is "scalding by hot drinks" so the idea you seem to have that standing is liable to cause death is utterly preposterous, I'm afraid.

I'd also expect stewarding in seated areas to be zero-tolerance towards persistent standing if safe-standing areas did come in - I'd also expect supporters to do a certain amount of self-policing, too.

[Rev Algenon Stickleback H]

The massive old terraces are dead and gone and no-one wants them back.

~I want them back - and I know many others who feel the same.
Frankly the safe standing group / FSF and the Supporters Trusts are not going far enough. As ver they only ask for what they deem likely to be acceptable to the owners. Let us ask for what we really want.

Many is not the majority, it wont happen. Support Bracknell if you want to stand on the terraces. Football has moved forwards, we are not going backwards.

Why are you against terracing? You do realise bringing back terracing won't mean you have to stand up if you don't want to?

The Grounds in Germany are better and more modern than ours, and have terracing. The idea that terracing is somehow old-fashioned is stupid.

[Gloria Gooner]

1) I don't want to see ticket price increases to pay for the extra insurance premiums which would presumably be requested.
2) I don't want the person in front of me to be able to stand and obscure my view.
3) I've not said standing is 'liable to cause death' and neither has Mr Angry.

[Svlad Cjelli]

1) I don't want to see ticket price increases to pay for the extra insurance premiums which would presumably be requested.
2) I don't want the person in front of me to be able to stand and obscure my view.
3) I've not said standing is 'liable to cause death' and neither has Mr Angry.

1) Not required, the 80% increase in capacity should pay for conversion costs. See the business case on page 3.

2) Exactly - that's why people who want to stand should be provided with custom-designed safe-standing areas so they can stand without obscuring the views of those who don't want to (or can't) stand.

3) The suggestion that people need to sign a disclaimer "from taking legal action against the club, or the Police, in the event of injury caused by being in the standing area" plus the statement "1 final thing; if it does come to pass, then I hope those who are advocating this will realise that if any fan dies on the terrace, it will be on THEIR conscience." seem pretty clear to me.

[T.R.O.L.I.]

2) I don't want the person in front of me to be able to stand and obscure my view.

Do you think you could have missed the whole point of a safe standing area (SSA) by a further distance?

People who want to stand will buy a ticket for the safe standing area.

People who do not want to stand will by a ticket for the seated area.

These are two separate areas so the person in front of you should not be able to stand and obscure your view. As SC states:

I'd also expect stewarding in seated areas to be zero-tolerance towards persistent standing if safe-standing areas did come in - I'd also expect supporters to do a certain amount of self-policing, too.

Currently, the people that persistently stand up at football matches do so either because:

a) They want to stand up at football or

b) Their view is obscured by those covered by part a).

Remove part a) (i.e. with the SSA) and part b) also goes away.

Simple.

[Gloria Gooner]

As someone who likes all seater stadia, I think that there should be designated standing areas for both home and away fans at gorunds; therefore, those who want to stand have a place to do so; those that don't won't have their view obscured by a load of selfish pcunts. Those that want to stand will have - on their ticket - a waiver from taking legal action against the club, or the Police, in the event of injury caused by being in the standing area.

Perfectly understand SSA. which is why I was agreeing with Mr A, including this first paragraph. Re-reading the exchange, I can see why this has happened, but that's what I meant.

[Rev Algenon Stickleback H]

1) I don't want to see ticket price increases to pay for the extra insurance premiums which would presumably be requested.
.

Is there anything at all to suggest clubs with terracing have to pay high insurance premiums? Do clubs who go all seater lower ticket prices?

[weybridgewanderer]

1) I don't want to see ticket price increases to pay for the extra insurance premiums which would presumably be requested.
2) I don't want the person in front of me to be able to stand and obscure my view.
3) I've not said standing is 'liable to cause death' and neither has Mr Angry.

1) Not required, the 80% increase in capacity should pay for conversion costs. See the business case on page 3.

Where are the costs of any conversion work to access areas and stairwells?

What is the current evacuation flow on the exits and could this cope with your 80% increase in capacity for the areas you convert?

What percentage of the fans in the area are new fans and what percentage have just relocated to the standing area from elsewhere in the stadium? (without new fans, unless you charge those in the standing area more you will not generate extra revenue). Increase the area by 80%, drop the price 50% its only 80% occupied and 75% of those are exisiting fans who are now paying less, you lose money

You really did not present a business case, you said you can get more people in an area and make more money from that are. I could put more, smaller, seats in the north stand and say the same thing.

If people want to stand, convert the existing seats in Y26 into safe standing and charge people the same as they pay today (or even a premium) to stand there rather than sit elsewhere in the stadium. Quite a number in there try to stand already so I see no objection in charging at least the same if the seat is removed and they are allowed to stand without being hassled by the stewards.

I do agree with safe standing areas being allowed in stadia (just to make it clear)

[Svlad Cjelli]

I don't know the costs in detail (yet - I'm talking to a civil engineer about getting these), but of course the conversion costs include all required aspects, including escape routes etc, not just the conversion of the stand itself.

You also seem to be missing the point I made that one of the key financial pre-requisites is that a stadium is at or near capacity so that you can sell the extra capacity.

The is scope to change virtually anywhere - the only reason I suggested the North Stand is that those converting Y26 into a safe-standing area plays into the hands of those people who can't get rid of the perception that standing attracts hooligans from their minds. Putting the standing area away from the Y26/away fans flash point dampens down any argument those people may make.

[West Stand Man]

1) I don't want to see ticket price increases to pay for the extra insurance premiums which would presumably be requested.
2) I don't want the person in front of me to be able to stand and obscure my view.
3) I've not said standing is 'liable to cause death' and neither has Mr Angry.

1) Not required, the 80% increase in capacity should pay for conversion costs. See the business case on page 3.

2) Exactly - that's why people who want to stand should be provided with custom-designed safe-standing areas so they can stand without obscuring the views of those who don't want to (or can't) stand.

3) The suggestion that people need to sign a disclaimer "from taking legal action against the club, or the Police, in the event of injury caused by being in the standing area" plus the statement "1 final thing; if it does come to pass, then I hope those who are advocating this will realise that if any fan dies on the terrace, it will be on THEIR conscience." seem pretty clear to me.

Re bullet 1).You aren't really up to the finance stuff are you? The business case only stacks up if the 80% increase in capacity is matched by an increase in demand. Having 80% more spaces is not in itself a revenue generator (as has oft been discussed in the whole stadium expansion piece).
2). Arguable.
As to bullet 3). That is precisely why most politicians will not vote for this change. They are not the risk taking people that you are. They are much more likely to veer away from any change that they perceive as making life more dangerous.

[Svlad Cjelli]

1) See my post from 30 seconds ago - a financial prerequisite, stated at the time, was that the capacity could be sold. I never set that out as a fully formed proposal, it was an illustration for those who said clubs would never adopt it because it would cost too much. The properly costed proposal will take more time.

2) Arguable indeed, but the vast majority of football supporters (aka "customers") do want to see these.

3) This last point only holds water if you accept the assertion that standing areas are more dangerous than seated areas. They are categorically not, so this whole thread to the argument is invalid. If there is no greater risk why should anyone be worries about accepting it? If anything, standing in an area designed for seating is the most dangerous of all possibilities, because there's nothing effective to stop surges, except seats which are only up to knee level.