Safe-Standing petition

[Alexander Litvinenko]

I personally do not agree with the petition, but that is what petitions are for and good luck to those in favour. If it comes off - good for you. Enjoy - I'll sit in my comfy seat (must be getting old!!) Interestingly, where do I get to voice my negative opinion? Hmmmmmm

If you don't mind me saying, you ought to support the petition, then, because safe-standing won't just benefit those who want to stand. It'll benefit those who want to sit in their comfy seats and not have people standing in front of them just as much.

That's why the concept is shown to be supported by a large majority of ALL supporters in all the surveys done on this - that's both supporters who prefer to sit as well as those who prefer to stand. (I do have the stats but I'm not going to post them all again.)

[LoyalRoyalFan]

Saw on skysports news on Friday that a rugby league team (st Helens I think) were moving into a new purpose built stadium. I happen to notice in the report that behind the goals/posts (or whatever they call them) both 'stands' were seatless with standing barriers.

Terracing is commonplace, but apparently only becomes dangerous when the ball isn't egg-shaped.

Good point, but I think terracing becomes dangerous when stupid and drunk people behave stupidly. Same as seated, but it is easier to monitor, get amongst and control a mostly seated group rather than a passionate standing mob. Mob is not used offensively here, just a good word to describe a collective gang who will behave with a collective mentality. We already see that in Y25/6 as many behave as a swarm of bees (less offensive than flock of sheep) and gang up on stewards or individuals or against those in authority.

I personally do not agree with the petition, but that is what petitions are for and good luck to those in favour. If it comes off - good for you. Enjoy - I'll sit in my comfy seat (must be getting old!!) Interestingly, where do I get to voice my negative opinion? Hmmmmmm

What a ridiculous post.

The fans in Y25/6 are standing up for something they believe in (pardon the pun). I don't think you understand the whole campaign here. We are not asking for the whole stadium to be made into terracing, we are asking for a large section of it to be made up so that fans can have a preference.

[Once were Biscuitmen]

The problem with say only a section of east stand being made standing is that it would have to be sectioned off from the rest somehow.

If not nothing would stop those in the 'seated' section moving over and standing as well. This could cause overcrowding in the standing area and be potentially dangerous. While not impossible it would mean diving the concourse and the exterior of the stadium somehow. The easiest way to do this would be to make the whole North stand safe standing but I'm not sure if the demand would fill it?

Realistically safe standing appeals to a minority of younger male fans without families. The sort of fan that will come anyway. Balanced against that you have the club/police/FA who accurately perceives that seated fans are easier to safely manage on match day and that seating creates an 'atmosphere' more appealing to the families and casual fans that clubs want to attract.

Until this dynamic changes it is never going to happen.

[Alexander Litvinenko]

I'll highlight the inaccuracies/misconceptions in red.

The problem with say only a section of east stand being made standing is that it would have to be sectioned off from the rest somehow.

If not nothing would stop those in the 'seated' section moving over and standing as well. This could cause overcrowding in the standing area and be potentially dangerous. While not impossible it would mean diving the concourse and the exterior of the stadium somehow. The easiest way to do this would be to make the whole North stand safe standing but I'm not sure if the demand would fill it? Standing areas can be ticketed just as easily as seated ones - instead of a reserved seat you have a reserved space.

Realistically safe standing appeals to a minority of younger male fans without families. Not true - surveys and a study of crowds at Ninian Park show this isn't the case.
The sort of fan that will come anyway. Not true - that sot of fan is being priced out and the lack of atmosphere makes games less attractive to them.
Balanced against that you have the club/police/FA who accurately perceives that seated fans are easier to safely manage on match day and that seating creates an 'atmosphere' more appealing to the families and casual fans that clubs want to attract. One consistent message agreed by is that seating prevents an "atmosphere". And the Police and rescue services agree that it's easier to get to incidents, treat casualties and use stretchers etc when there aren't seats to content with.

Until this dynamic changes it is never going to happen.

[West Stand Man]

Good point, but I think terracing becomes dangerous when stupid and drunk people behave stupidly. Same as seated, but it is easier to monitor, get amongst and control a mostly seated group rather than a passionate standing mob. Mob is not used offensively here, just a good word to describe a collective gang who will behave with a collective mentality. We already see that in Y25/6 as many behave as a swarm of bees (less offensive than flock of sheep) and gang up on stewards or individuals or against those in authority.

I personally do not agree with the petition, but that is what petitions are for and good luck to those in favour. If it comes off - good for you. Enjoy - I'll sit in my comfy seat (must be getting old!!) Interestingly, where do I get to voice my negative opinion? Hmmmmmm

What a ridiculous post.

The fans in Y25/6 are standing up for something they believe in (pardon the pun). I don't think you understand the whole campaign here. We are not asking for the whole stadium to be made into terracing, we are asking for a large section of it to be made up so that fans can have a preference.

Can you highlight for me where in that post he says any of the things you accuse him of? It is not 'a ridiculous post' just one you don't like or agree with.

[Once were Biscuitmen]

I'll highlight the inaccuracies/misconceptions in red.

The problem with say only a section of east stand being made standing is that it would have to be sectioned off from the rest somehow.

If not nothing would stop those in the 'seated' section moving over and standing as well. This could cause overcrowding in the standing area and be potentially dangerous. While not impossible it would mean diving the concourse and the exterior of the stadium somehow. The easiest way to do this would be to make the whole North stand safe standing but I'm not sure if the demand would fill it? Standing areas can be ticketed just as easily as seated ones - instead of a reserved seat you have a reserved space.

Realistically safe standing appeals to a minority of younger male fans without families. Not true - surveys and a study of crowds at Ninian Park show this isn't the case.
The sort of fan that will come anyway. Not true - that sot of fan is being priced out and the lack of atmosphere makes games less attractive to them.
Balanced against that you have the club/police/FA who accurately perceives that seated fans are easier to safely manage on match day and that seating creates an 'atmosphere' more appealing to the families and casual fans that clubs want to attract. One consistent message agreed by is that seating prevents an "atmosphere". And the Police and rescue services agree that it's easier to get to incidents, treat casualties and use stretchers etc when there aren't seats to content with.

Until this dynamic changes it is never going to happen.

1) And how do you know the person standing has a standing ticket? The danger is people move from the seated section and cause over-crowding once the game starts unless access to standing section is controlled on the concourse and in the stadium throughout the match. So you could not have standing in say Y25/26 in an otherwise interconnected east stand as you would risk losing control of the crowd.

2) Having been there I don't think a fan run survey at Ninian park is a statistically safe representation of the rest of the country.

3) By atmosphere I meant in the sense that seating creates a more passive crowd. For you and me this is a bad thing, for those who have to manage crowds, want to attract families, and are haunted by the specter of hooliganism, it is a good thing.

4) Any analysis of injuries, incidents etc on pre vs. post all-seating stadia shows that we are now far safer. This is not all down to seating but it is I believe a significant factor. Whenever consulted the Police consistently oppose the re-introduction of standing at football for this very reason.

[Alexander Litvinenko]

1) And how do you know the person standing has a standing ticket? The danger is people move from the seated section and cause over-crowding once the game starts unless access to standing section is controlled on the concourse and in the stadium throughout the match. So you could not have standing in say Y25/26 in an otherwise interconnected east stand as you would risk losing control of the crowd.

No different to someone with a ticket in Y25 occupying a seat in Y26. Number places on the ground instead of numbered seats ensure each area is at the correct capacity. And if they're not tied up resolving the conflict that comes from trying to make people sit the stewards are able to resolve any issues.

2) Having been there I don't think a fan run survey at Ninian park is a statistically safe representation of the rest of the country.

That's such a blinkered and bigoted view I'm not going to dignify it with an answer. I have the statistics to hand but you clearly won't listen to them.

3) By atmosphere I meant in the sense that seating creates a more passive crowd. For you and me this is a bad thing, for those who have to manage crowds, want to attract families, and are haunted by the specter of hooliganism, it is a good thing.

Any link between hooliganism and standing is not established - and all attempts to justify it have failed. It's a knee-jerk assumption that I refute entirely.

4) Any analysis of injuries, incidents etc on pre vs. post all-seating stadia shows that we are now far safer. This is not all down to seating but it is I believe a significant factor. Whenever consulted the Police consistently oppose the re-introduction of standing at football for this very reason.

That's just not true. All analyses of injuries and incidents etc for standing vs. seating accommodation show that in both cases the injury rates are so small to be statistically insignificant - there is no effective difference between the two. Statistics show that the most common injury at football grounds is "scalding by hot liquids" and the most common time for injuries to occur is "on entering and leaving" the areas - so on that basis let's ban hot drinks and never let anyone in or out of the stadia, eh?

These are the same old tired arguments that are trotted out again and again. Each one doesn't hold water.

[Once were Biscuitmen]

1. It's far easier to associate an individual with a seat than an 'area of ground'. How could the stewards tell that an 'area of ground' was over used from a distance if people moved from seating areas?

As I say not a show stopper if the standing area is self contained, through this would present other dangers if the area was too mall and exit more difficult.

2. Where are your statistics then, links to an independent you-gov/MORI/etc properly run statistical surveys? I expect you have a fan survey run by people who want standing.

3. Seated crowds are more passive and easier to control. If you read what I said again you will find that I stated 'those in charge with responsibility for crowd safety are haunted by the spectre of hooliganism'. Espcially on a day like today I was trying to explain why the authorities are so risk-adverse to the proposal not stating that standing leads to hoolganism.

4. So you are telling me there have not been fewer incidents of crowd disorder and injuries at football stadiums since the introduction of all-seater stadiums?

If you look at the upside to standing a minority who will go to football anyway will enjoy it more. The potential downside is a harder to control crowd, over-crowding if not managed properly and the need to spend money on altering stadia. Why would any club or authority take the risk? If something goes wrong they will be blamed if it goes well people who would have come anyway will still come.

More generally what is wrong with today? You can stand up after a goal and when the teams come out etc. Do you feel the need to stand up at the theater, a basketball match or cinema to enjoy yourself?

The world has changed, football is far safer and family friendly than it was when standing was the norm. There is less chanting and noise but so freaking what?

A huge reason for the shift in culture was a move to seating and nobody with any power is going to risk endangering the golden goose to recreate a golden age that never really was.

[weybridgewanderer]

1) And how do you know the person standing has a standing ticket? The danger is people move from the seated section and cause over-crowding once the game starts unless access to standing section is controlled on the concourse and in the stadium throughout the match. So you could not have standing in say Y25/26 in an otherwise interconnected east stand as you would risk losing control of the crowd.

Safe Standing does not mean a return to terraces of old

As has been said, you would be allocated a space to stand in. If the area appears overcrowded then stewards can check who has the ticket for the space they are standing in.

[who are ya?]

The safe standing areas I've seen have rows of seats anyway, so you'll basically have a seat number that you'll stand at

[Rev Algenon Stickleback H]

1. It's far easier to associate an individual with a seat than an 'area of ground'. How could the stewards tell that an 'area of ground' was over used from a distance if people moved from seating areas?

As I say not a show stopper if the standing area is self contained, through this would present other dangers if the area was too mall and exit more difficult.

The terrace would have a capacity. How could it be "too small"?

If you look at the upside to standing a minority who will go to football anyway will enjoy it more. The potential downside is a harder to control crowd, over-crowding if not managed properly and the need to spend money on altering stadia. Why would any club or authority take the risk? If something goes wrong they will be blamed if it goes well people who would have come anyway will still come.

If you moved the safe standing/terrace area to the north stand, I'd suggest there'd be far fewer flashpoints than now. Almost all trouble inside football grounds comes from away fans, and there'd be no need to give away fans terracing.

The world has changed, football is far safer and family friendly than it was when standing was the norm. There is less chanting and noise but so freaking what?

A huge reason for the shift in culture was a move to seating and nobody with any power is going to risk endangering the golden goose to recreate a golden age that never really was.

the UK isn't "the world" and there's terracing in other countries, and better atmosphere too.

[Cobi]

The safe standing areas I've seen have rows of seats anyway, so you'll basically have a seat number that you'll stand at

the fsf have brought these to reading as well. the club was keen to consider how viable they are, and although interested, it would take quite a bit of work to amend the stands to accommodate the new style seating and pillars.

it will, one day, come to england though. there's a lot of interest and much of which is from the prem league. it's more when than if now.

[RFCSPACE]

The safe standing areas I've seen have rows of seats anyway, so you'll basically have a seat number that you'll stand at

the fsf have brought these to reading as well. the club was keen to consider how viable they are, and although interested, it would take quite a bit of work to amend the stands to accommodate the new style seating and pillars.

it will, one day, come to england though. there's a lot of interest and much of which is from the prem league. it's more when than if now.

Frankly, adding 3ft of metal poles on top of the current seating can't be too difficult. These standing stands look like seats anyway. Just a few barriers so people can't fall forward.

[Once were Biscuitmen]

If a single stand is a mix of standing and sitting I don't think it's unreasonable to point out it would be harder to stop people moving towards an more amorphous crowd section- even if there is an associated seat. I agree it it is more workable if a whole stand is safe standing (such as the North stand) but I'm not sure there would be the demand to fill it.

The upside is a more noisy atmosphere and the enhanced enjoyment of the game for some fans. The downside is standing crowds are naturally more boisterous and harder to control. Attendances have held up remarkably well over the credit crunch and I just don't see how any club is incentivized to bring it in?

Anyway given all the press coverage and national focus on the failure of crowd control that resulted in the Hillsborough tragedy nobody in government/the FA/any football club/the media is going to touch safe standing with a barge pole for many, many years.

[Ian Royal]

Saw on skysports news on Friday that a rugby league team (st Helens I think) were moving into a new purpose built stadium. I happen to notice in the report that behind the goals/posts (or whatever they call them) both 'stands' were seatless with standing barriers.

Terracing is commonplace, but apparently only becomes dangerous when the ball isn't egg-shaped.

Good point, but I think terracing becomes dangerous when stupid and drunk people behave stupidly. Same as seated, but it is easier to monitor, get amongst and control a mostly seated group rather than a passionate standing mob. Mob is not used offensively here, just a good word to describe a collective gang who will behave with a collective mentality. We already see that in Y25/6 as many behave as a swarm of bees (less offensive than flock of sheep) and gang up on stewards or individuals or against those in authority.

I personally do not agree with the petition, but that is what petitions are for and good luck to those in favour. If it comes off - good for you. Enjoy - I'll sit in my comfy seat (must be getting old!!) Interestingly, where do I get to voice my negative opinion? Hmmmmmm

You can start your own petition against Safe Standing. Although why you would do this when the advocates are not trying to take away your ability to sit, only obtain an ability for them to stand, I have no idea.

[larry1971]

The problem with say only a section of east stand being made standing is that it would have to be sectioned off from the rest somehow.

If not nothing would stop those in the 'seated' section moving over and standing as well. This could cause overcrowding in the standing area and be potentially dangerous. While not impossible it would mean diving the concourse and the exterior of the stadium somehow. The easiest way to do this would be to make the whole North stand safe standing but I'm not sure if the demand would fill it?
Realistically safe standing appeals to a minority of younger male fans without families. The sort of fan that will come anyway. Balanced against that you have the club/police/FA who accurately perceives that seated fans are easier to safely manage on match day and that seating creates an 'atmosphere' more appealing to the families and casual fans that clubs want to attract.

Until this dynamic changes it is never going to happen.

wouldn't the steepness of the stands and the Madejski make it difficult to make one stand standing only.

[Platypuss]

Attendances have held up remarkably well over the credit crunch and I just don't see how any club is incentivized to bring it in?

CMIIW, but I thought the capacity of a safe-standing area was larger than if it was seated?

[Tony Le Mesmer]

For all the will in the world there isnt a chance in hell of Reading introducing safe standing, at least not in this generation. Id like to see it in the North stand, which is they only place the could logistacally do it, but the Madejski was built for seated fans and the club are hell bent on bringing people to the stadium that want to sit.

[paultheroyal]

Apologies if answered but would safe standing increase capacity of stadiums such as ours? Looking at the sample shown here it looks not as you are given an allocated seat.

[Once were Biscuitmen]

Attendances have held up remarkably well over the credit crunch and I just don't see how any club is incentivized to bring it in?

CMIIW, but I thought the capacity of a safe-standing area was larger than if it was seated?

I meant that if clubs needed to attract fans following a decline in attendance- and they felt that safe standing would do so- they might off set the cost and crowd risk against the increased revenue.

However there just isn't a reserve army of fans who would suddenly turn up if safe standing was introduced. It is demanded by a minority of fans who turn up anyway.

Any game theory at all will tell you it's not going to happen- unless a number of the factors shift significantly.