Moving away fans to Upper West Corner

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Snowflake Royal
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Re: Moving away fans to Upper West Corner

by Snowflake Royal » 20 May 2023 09:39

Dirk Gently It's utter hypocrisy. All the "holier-than-thou" stuff from the club about "20s plenty" and suddenly they've changed direction 180 degrees and they're openly talking about exploiting loopholes so they can charge away fans extra.

I rather suspect its in direct response to the lack of reciprocation after they publically contacted every club last season and offered the we'll charge you less if you charge us less.

Of course, a bit unfair given we're no longer in the same division as those clubs.

But bring a large following and they can still access cheaper tickets for some.

I'd prefer it was South with UW overflow, but this is financially better for the club, better for the atmosphere and better for the home fans. And we've been in a financial mess for ages, so it's nice to see the club finally recognising that and trying to squeeze in small increases in revenue where it can. Our prices are generally pretty cheap still anyway.

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Re: Moving away fans to Upper West Corner

by Royal_jimmy » 20 May 2023 12:00

I think it's a great solution. Allows us to charge more for away fans. Does anyone know how much it costs for members to sit in the upper West? Isn't it like £25-26? Also means we can give clubs more tickets as well. 3-3.5k away fans without them always dominating the atmosphere like they did if they had the whole south stand without losing any revenue as we would charge them £22 in the south stand.

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Re: Moving away fans to Upper West Corner

by Dirk Gently » 20 May 2023 14:23

Royal_jimmy I think it's a great solution. Allows us to charge more for away fans. Does anyone know how much it costs for members to sit in the upper West? Isn't it like £25-26? Also means we can give clubs more tickets as well. 3-3.5k away fans without them always dominating the atmosphere like they did if they had the whole south stand without losing any revenue as we would charge them £22 in the south stand.


As long as you're happy for clubs we're visiting to cynically exploit you by only selling the most expensive areas in their ground so you're paying an extra fiver for an away game than the home fans are, then fine...

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Re: Moving away fans to Upper West Corner

by Royal_jimmy » 20 May 2023 15:10

Dirk Gently
Royal_jimmy I think it's a great solution. Allows us to charge more for away fans. Does anyone know how much it costs for members to sit in the upper West? Isn't it like £25-26? Also means we can give clubs more tickets as well. 3-3.5k away fans without them always dominating the atmosphere like they did if they had the whole south stand without losing any revenue as we would charge them £22 in the south stand.


As long as you're happy for clubs we're visiting to cynically exploit you by only selling the most expensive areas in their ground so you're paying an extra fiver for an away game than the home fans are, then fine...


Lucky for us most of the stadiums we're visiting are tinpot and don't have second tiers so they can't charge us more :D

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Re: Moving away fans to Upper West Corner

by Sutekh » 20 May 2023 15:25

Dirk Gently
Royal_jimmy I think it's a great solution. Allows us to charge more for away fans. Does anyone know how much it costs for members to sit in the upper West? Isn't it like £25-26? Also means we can give clubs more tickets as well. 3-3.5k away fans without them always dominating the atmosphere like they did if they had the whole south stand without losing any revenue as we would charge them £22 in the south stand.


As long as you're happy for clubs we're visiting to cynically exploit you by only selling the most expensive areas in their ground so you're paying an extra fiver for an away game than the home fans are, then fine...


They'll be happy, away at Reading in their cup final.


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Re: Moving away fans to Upper West Corner

by Dirk Gently » 20 May 2023 15:26

Royal_jimmy
Dirk Gently
Royal_jimmy I think it's a great solution. Allows us to charge more for away fans. Does anyone know how much it costs for members to sit in the upper West? Isn't it like £25-26? Also means we can give clubs more tickets as well. 3-3.5k away fans without them always dominating the atmosphere like they did if they had the whole south stand without losing any revenue as we would charge them £22 in the south stand.


As long as you're happy for clubs we're visiting to cynically exploit you by only selling the most expensive areas in their ground so you're paying an extra fiver for an away game than the home fans are, then fine...


Lucky for us most of the stadiums we're visiting are tinpot and don't have second tiers so they can't charge us more :D


How little you understand. Swindon used to do this cynical exploitation of away supporters, simply by not opening the away end and making all away supporters buy higher-priced seated tickets in the stand. And they're as tinpot as a club could possibly be (except maybe Oxford)

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Re: Moving away fans to Upper West Corner

by Clyde1998 » 20 May 2023 18:05

tidus_mi2 I think the issue arises that clubs are trying to increase their revenue streams to better compete in an FFP environment, if we charge low prices, other teams just charge higher and get a financial advantage. Really, considering all the costs associated with following your club away, an agreed EFL price cap for each division on solely away tickets would be beneficial I would feel, I would include the Premier League but they already have away tickets capped at £30

Exactly - FFP requires clubs to generate as much revenue as possible and therefore encourages clubs to increase ticket prices to a level that maximises revenue (as owners are limited in how much they can subsidise clubs).

I don't know if anyone's read Soccernomics (the 2022 edition), but there's a chapter about FFP: how it was pointless to begin with and why it doesn't work. The basic overview is that it was brought in to keep clubs solvent following the 2008 economic collapse, but failed to recognise clubs typically didn't spend money they didn't have (or thought they couldn't reasonably pay back).

Clubs who did run into financial issues usually occurred due to relegation, collapse of sponsors or broadcasters or economic mismanagement. FFP does nothing to prevent these things; it can, however, limit the damage extent a club could be damaged through mismanagement by restricting spending. Clubs who do run into economic issues almost always survive in some form, whether simply by playing in a lower division or by reforming under a new company - ie. there's a punishment for economic mismanagement or overspending without FFP existing. Additionally, the book claims it's not certain whether FFP rules would be upheld by a court (in a major developed country) due to most FFP schemes placing restrictions on the investment an owner can put into a company (I'm no legal expert, so don't know what sort of basis in law there is for FFP). The real reason for FFP was to help entrench the elite clubs - it's no coincidence FFP came in within ten years of the takeovers of Chelsea, Man City and PSG; at the point when the established big clubs were most threatened.

The book also mentioned a study done of English and Spanish clubs (between 1993 and 2005) to calculate what the ultimate profit maximising position for each club. It found the position to maximise profits (in economics terms: the point where marginal revenue equals marginal cost) for Barcelona and Real Madrid would be 15th and 17th respectively. Incidentally that study suggests our profit maximising position through that period was to average 42nd in England (22nd in the Championship). The win maximising position (the point where average revenue equals average cost or the breakeven point) for us was an average finish of 29th. These are two very different positions; FFP pushes clubs towards the former.

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Re: Moving away fans to Upper West Corner

by Needle » 21 May 2023 10:34

Dirk Gently As long as you're happy for clubs we're visiting to cynically exploit you by only selling the most expensive areas in their ground so you're paying an extra fiver for an away game than the home fans are, then fine...


Is "twenty's plenty" and reciprocal pricing no longer an RFC policy?

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Re: Moving away fans to Upper West Corner

by MR.CYNICAL » 21 May 2023 11:03

At the end of the day, we've never got any credit for the twenties plenty policy. The comments I've seen on our relegation from rival fans have all been derogative. Same old stuff, crap stadium, tin pot club etc. No one ever mentions the pricing so why offer it if it's not appreciated?


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Re: Moving away fans to Upper West Corner

by tidus_mi2 » 21 May 2023 11:50

Needle
Dirk Gently As long as you're happy for clubs we're visiting to cynically exploit you by only selling the most expensive areas in their ground so you're paying an extra fiver for an away game than the home fans are, then fine...


Is "twenty's plenty" and reciprocal pricing no longer an RFC policy?

I hope it gets a rerun this season but I feel they would have mentioned it when they talked about moving away fans to Upper West would allow the raising prices

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Re: Moving away fans to Upper West Corner

by TiagoIlori » 21 May 2023 13:06

There’s being cheesed off at clubs not offering back the £20 offer, then there’s deliberately trying to give the away fans the most expensive seats in the stadium and openly admitting to trying to do that.

If the club are annoyed at the take up, then it needs to be addressed directly and publicly, to put pressure on the EFL and individual clubs. This is totally the wrong way to go about it.

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Re: Moving away fans to Upper West Corner

by Dirk Gently » 21 May 2023 13:38

Clyde1998
tidus_mi2 I think the issue arises that clubs are trying to increase their revenue streams to better compete in an FFP environment, if we charge low prices, other teams just charge higher and get a financial advantage. Really, considering all the costs associated with following your club away, an agreed EFL price cap for each division on solely away tickets would be beneficial I would feel, I would include the Premier League but they already have away tickets capped at £30

Exactly - FFP requires clubs to generate as much revenue as possible and therefore encourages clubs to increase ticket prices to a level that maximises revenue (as owners are limited in how much they can subsidise clubs).
...
...
.../quote]

There are various long-established methods of "pricing for revenue" as opposed to "pricing for attendance" - Karen Brady at West Ham pioneered a lot of them, and they’ve been enthusiastically adopted by Leeds.

But whether you can do this is not the point here. It's whether you should.

Cynically trying to exploit the most money out of fewer visiting supporters - and even openly admitting that on the club website?

We're better than that - or at least we used to be.

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Re: Moving away fans to Upper West Corner

by YorkshireRoyal99 » 21 May 2023 18:07

MR.CYNICAL At the end of the day, we've never got any credit for the twenties plenty policy. The comments I've seen on our relegation from rival fans have all been derogative. Same old stuff, crap stadium, tin pot club etc. No one ever mentions the pricing so why offer it if it's not appreciated?


I'm not sure how many clubs actually accepted our offer to hold ticket prices at £20 for travelling fans this season? Cardiff and Blackburn?

At the end of the day, the football club is now a business. For a club that has been overspending as much as we have and reliant on our owner without being sustainable ourselves, we need to attempt to maximise our revenue as best as we can. Potentially a win-win for the club if we can be successful on the field next season, prompting more fans through the gate at higher ticket prices.


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Re: Moving away fans to Upper West Corner

by tidus_mi2 » 21 May 2023 18:26

YorkshireRoyal99
MR.CYNICAL At the end of the day, we've never got any credit for the twenties plenty policy. The comments I've seen on our relegation from rival fans have all been derogative. Same old stuff, crap stadium, tin pot club etc. No one ever mentions the pricing so why offer it if it's not appreciated?


I'm not sure how many clubs actually accepted our offer to hold ticket prices at £20 for travelling fans this season? Cardiff and Blackburn?

At the end of the day, the football club is now a business. For a club that has been overspending as much as we have and reliant on our owner without being sustainable ourselves, we need to attempt to maximise our revenue as best as we can. Potentially a win-win for the club if we can be successful on the field next season, prompting more fans through the gate at higher ticket prices.

It was 7/23 teams.

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Re: Moving away fans to Upper West Corner

by Green » 21 May 2023 19:46

TiagoIlori There’s being cheesed off at clubs not offering back the £20 offer, then there’s deliberately trying to give the away fans the most expensive seats in the stadium and openly admitting to trying to do that.

If the club are annoyed at the take up, then it needs to be addressed directly and publicly, to put pressure on the EFL and individual clubs. This is totally the wrong way to go about it.

+1. It's admitting defeat.

Letting the bastards win.

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Re: Moving away fans to Upper West Corner

by Royal_jimmy » 22 May 2023 10:57

To be fair I don't really know why any of us are that bothered about what away fans have to pay. It'll only work out to be like £3-4 more than what away fans paid last season. Hardly bank breaking.

Expect adult away fans will be charged £25/26 (steep but not outrageous). We can always offer the Twenty's Plenty again and anyone who reciprocates gets discounted tickets. Charge the clubs who rip us off back.

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Re: Moving away fans to Upper West Corner

by Dirk Gently » 22 May 2023 11:05

Royal_jimmy To be fair I don't really know why any of us are that bothered about what away fans have to pay. It'll only work out to be like £3-4 more than what away fans paid last season. Hardly bank breaking.

Expect adult away fans will be charged £25/26 (steep but not outrageous). We can always offer the Twenty's Plenty again and anyone who reciprocates gets discounted tickets. Charge the clubs who rip us off back.


Because we don't exist in isolation. If we're Ok with clubs putting prices up for away fans then - guess what? - when we go to away matches we'll find that we're being charged higher prices.

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Re: Moving away fans to Upper West Corner

by Snowflake Royal » 22 May 2023 11:09

Whether they will or not, who knows, but it's perfectly possible for the club to still have a reciprocal £20s plenty deal with L1 clubs and charge the fans of any clubs who don't reciprocate more, to apply pressure to those clubs via their supporters.

Something I'd see as completely reasonable.

7/23 Championship clubs buying in is pretty piss poor to be honest, so wouldn't be surprised if the club back away from it.

The whole decision comes from a pretty solid non-revenue point of view as well, to increase room for C1871 to improve their atmosphere whilst decreasing the effect of the away atmosphere. And the revenue increase is pretty small. Our pricing over the last decade shows no sign of cyncial pricing for revenue over attendance, so I'm not very worried.

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Re: Moving away fans to Upper West Corner

by Stranded » 22 May 2023 11:33

Moving visiting supporters to the Upper West also enables the club to charge a proportion of away fans a higher ticket price than we are currently able to. Regulations mean we are obligated to offer visiting supporters the same price as home fans when they are located within the same stand - but this change will mean we can charge a section of away supporters the Upper West matchday ticket price and increase revenue from visiting fans whilst keeping our Club 1871 prices as affordable as possible.


Isn't the bit in bold key here.

If we are planning on selling the UW first, then if the move only enables us to charge a "proportion of away fans" more, means that the plan is likely to offer a pricing policy similar to or continiung 20s Plenty - where the opposition agrees to do the same?

If not, then the tickets will be sold at UW prices and the cheaper seats will only become available if we are obligied to give them or feel we are going to get more money from away sales than C1871 sales.

If so this could actually push the onus on other clubs to accept the 20s Plenty deal to save their fans a bit of cash and make it cheaper for our fans to go away.

Proof will be in the pudding but that's how I read it.

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Re: Moving away fans to Upper West Corner

by Snowflake Royal » 22 May 2023 11:45

It's not clear, but this is an area the club still has credit in the bank so happy to give benefit of doubt.

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