England - the future....

[Sanguine]

That chart for Greaves is ridiculous, I had no idea on that one. In fact I've looked up his goals and found 19 of his 44 England goals came in the 'Home Championship' friendlies, and he scored three hat-tricks against Northern Ireland. The Greaves legend exploded!

[From Despair To Where?]

I presume that they are classing the Home Internationals as friendlies so in defence of Greaves, for the duration of his International career,
England:

did not enter the 1960 European Championships
Played 4 qualifying games for the 1962 World Cup
Played 4 games in the 1962 World Cup Finals
Played 2 qualifying games for Euro 64
Qualified fo the 1966 World Cup as hosts
Played 6 games in the 1966 World Cup
The Home Internationals were the qualifying tournament for the 1968 Euros

So for the duration of Greaves' international career, 1959-1967, England played 16 competitive fixtures, 6 qualifiers and 10 finals games.

[Sanguine]

I presume that they are classing the Home Internationals as friendlies so in defence of Greaves, for the duration of his International career,
England:

did not enter the 1960 European Championships
Played 4 qualifying games for the 1962 World Cup
Played 4 games in the 1962 World Cup Finals
Played 2 qualifying games for Euro 64
Qualified fo the 1966 World Cup as hosts
Played 6 games in the 1966 World Cup
The Home Internationals were the qualifying tournament for the 1968 Euros

So for the duration of Greaves' international career, 1959-1967, England played 16 competitive fixtures, 6 qualifiers and 10 finals games.

Ta, that does put his record in a bit more context - although I posted that kind of in reference to the suggestion that Rooney has scored a lot of 'easy' goals. But then I don't know how 'good', or not, the Home countries were in the 60s.

[From Despair To Where?]

England just didn't play that many competitive fixtures in Greaves' day and before the 1960's the FA actively avoided playing stronger teams to maintain the myth of supremacy. I think, also that the early 60's the real power lay in South America and with the logistics of the time, England were never going to play them that often. The stronger teams in Europe were England, Germany, Spain, Italy and USSR. Spain were pretty insular under Franco, and USSR were never going to countenance many games outside countries under their control for fear of defection.

I do think Rooney is over-rated but he's on a a hiding to nothing. If you are going to seed the draws then the stronger nations are always going to avoid each other in qualifying and tournament group stages. Add to that the fact that UEFA has almost doubled it's membership in the last 25 years, the teams you play is always going to be weighted towards the weaker nations. The same can be said of Messi or Neymar who spend most of their time in qualifying banging goals past the likes of Peru and Venezuela. What's Christiano Ronaldo's Internatinal goalscoring record like? Of the top nations, he's scored 4 against Holland (1 in a friendly) and 1 against Argentina. That's it. Messi has never scored against Germany, Spain, France, Netherlands, Portugal or Brazil in a compatitive fixture.

In that respect, he can only score against whoever is put in front of him and Rooney's failings serve only to reflect England's failings as a team.

[Hoop Blah]

It just goes to show the folly of comparing across era's.

Not only was the political, economical and transport environment quite different so was the game. These days it's a lot more tactical, defensive and athletic and there's probably a case that the weaker teams aren't as weak as they once were. Conversely, and this was a point I think Jimmy Greaves made as they were talking about it on Talksport over the weekend, the pitches and balls make it easier and so do some of the rule changes have favoured attacking play (offside and the backpass rule being two).

Rooney gets a bit of stick for being a flat track bully, but I don't hear the same levelled at Messi who has yet to really do that much (certainly relative to his Barca form) for Argentina in a World Cup. Same kind of comments on Rondaldo to an extent I think, although they both probably stack up better than Rooney on the big club games.

[TBM]

Anyone watch the U21s beat Germany 3-2?

Any decent looking prospects?

[Esteban]

Anyone watch the U21s beat Germany 3-2?

Any decent looking prospects?

Most of the Germans! Redmond was probably our best player.

I thought Forster-Caskey looked decent, given the level he was playing at is higher than he usually faces. The Beeb seem to think he's a Royal, too:

England U21 3-2 Germany U21
Posted at 86 mins
Arsenal's Calum Chambers comes on for Reading's James Forster-Caskey. Chambers will sit just in front of the backline. There are four minutes remaining.

[Vision]

Anyone watch the U21s beat Germany 3-2?

Any decent looking prospects?

Most of the Germans! Redmond was probably our best player.

I thought Forster-Caskey looked decent, given the level he was playing at is higher than he usually faces. The Beeb seem to think he's a Royal, too:

England U21 3-2 Germany U21
Posted at 86 mins
Arsenal's Calum Chambers comes on for Reading's James Forster-Caskey. Chambers will sit just in front of the backline. There are four minutes remaining.

Thought the Brentford lad Alex Pritchard coming on for Will Hughes changed the game for England. Danny Ings is a right menace if not always the most composed, Carl Jenkinsson was probably our best player and Ward Prowse had a steady game. Although the Germans probably had the better players technically England did play some good stuff and got stronger as the game wore on. I hate the phrase but in the end I think we just "wanted it more" than them.

[Handsome Man]

I think the German players had played many more games in their top flight than ours, which meant they should have had the edge on experience. It's a slightly unfair comparison, because German football is different to ours, but our lads did well to just about match them technically, and then beat them because we had a bit more killer instinct.

Jenkinson attacked well, Ward-Prowse looked good and I was surprised by the Norwich forward, but in general, ours was a team without superstars and if this generation can learn to play as a team together without being over-hyped then it can only be a good thing for the next England manager.

[Hoop Blah]

Thought the Brentford lad Alex Pritchard coming on for Will Hughes changed the game for England. Danny Ings is a right menace if not always the most composed, Carl Jenkinsson was probably our best player and Ward Prowse had a steady game. Although the Germans probably had the better players technically England did play some good stuff and got stronger as the game wore on. I hate the phrase but in the end I think we just "wanted it more" than them.

I'd agree with that, I thought Pritchard did really when he came on. Hughes is a player I really like but he was pretty quiet last night.

Overall it wasn't the best performance by the U21s, as Southgate pointed out afterwards, but they did really well to stay in game and limit the Germans when they were on top. There was quite a bit of comment about the spirit of the squad and that's something that needs to be kept in mind when they start talking about bringing in the likes of Barkley, Chambers and even Sterling and Wilshire back into the mix for the Euro's. Having some of the more established players coming in, maybe playing at 90%, disrupting that squad and the team that's been developed over the last 12/18 months might not actually make us better.

[Hoop Blah]

I think the German players had played many more games in their top flight than ours, which meant they should have had the edge on experience. It's a slightly unfair comparison, because German football is different to ours...

Agreed on this point. There is a lot made about other countries and the relative proportion of players playing in the top flight but it often overlooks the quality, the pressure and competitive nature of the Championship. It's not the same as playing in La Liga or Seria A of course but the number of internationals in most teams and the crowds the league attracts means it's a very good breeding ground for our youngsters and the reason why the loan system is better than having 19/20/21 year olds rotting in Premier League squads not getting a competitive game.

[Hoop Blah]

Well I thought last night was pretty useful and the second half we looked quite good, despite it not being that good an Italy side.

Some of the press have laid into the team a bit but the whole point was for Hodgson to be able to try a few things and keep building for next summer. From that point of view it was a great night. He's learnt that although he can defend Jones can't play as the base of the diamond because we just don't use the ball enough. He's learnt that Carrick, despite being 33 and not one of my favourite players, is probably the man to build the midfield on and will play that role better than anyone else with a bit of experience that we have available right now.

He's learnt that Kane and Rooney could play together, but that Walcott, at least for now, doesn't quite make that system work especially if the midfield are struggling. He's also learnt that sticking by his players pays off and that players like Townsend and Barkley absolutely have a role to play in his squad.

Yep. Barkley looks like another world class youngster who's actually not world class after all.

He might not be world class as yet but I thought he was excellent last night. Apart from not playing in Rooney on the counter attack I'm not sure he made a wasteful pass or lost possession and gave us the drive and creativity to worry the Italians in a way we didn't before he and Townsend came on.

[Sanguine]

Exactly, there's 'just something about' Barkley in his direct running and crisp passing, he fits our new stronger and pacier model perfectly.

[Vision]

Not quite as enamoured by Barkley last night as others seem to be. Not that he had a bad game but I think he held onto the ball far too long and did get caught in possession in dangerous areas a couple of times. There's clearly talent there but time will tell whether he's as good as some seem to think.

Not sure why the media are giving Hodgson so much stick over the starting formation/Team. He tried something in a friendly, it didn't quite work so he changed it and we got a decent result and 2nd half performance. Seems fair enough really.

I hope it's just a blip (because I think he's the best we've got) but thought Cline had a very poor game and we noticeably improved when he was replaced by Walker.

[Royalclapper]

Yep, agree with that. Clyne is miles out of his depth at international level and Walker looks like first choice in that position for me.

Thought Darmian the full back for Italy showed some particularly classy moments fitting of what playing higher level opposition involves. Some of the close ball skills from Immobile also caught the eye and there was some frantic clearing of the ball from our back line.

More than held our own 2nd half though, and it's hard to ignore Andros Townsend and his absolutely fearless approach - England need more of that.

[Hoop Blah]

I agree on Clyne Vision. I have thought he gets done in behind a bit too easily (he did it on his debut a couple of times but pulled of some good recovering tackles) and last night was worse than normal but I'd give him the benefit of doubt and put it down to the formation not giving him enough protection or options on the ball.

Walker is pretty similar to Clyne but I'd probably say that bit better going forward and slightly more prone to being out of position at the back. With Chambers, Flanagn and Jenkinson all coming through hopefully we've seen the last of Glenn Johnson!

[Winston Smith]

lolwut!

[No Fixed Abode]

We are going to win the European championships.

[Maguire]

Also agree Clyne had an off day. Chiellini is a total beast, great player.

I've no issue with Roy using these games to try a few things out, surely that's what they're there for at least in part. Didn't work, fixed it, deserved "a point".

I actually think Rooney is a cracking little footballer fwiw. So typically English of people to pull him apart for not being Pele.

[ZacNaloen]

Immobile has a great name for someone so quick