England - the future....

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URZZZZ
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Re: England - the future....

by URZZZZ » 11 Oct 2019 21:31

Not watched it but from the BBC report “England lacking in ideas”. It’s like saying water is wet when we play against any sort of decent team (and that’s a stretch for Czech Republic)

It’s an absolute disgrace that the top scorer in the Premier League cannot play. It’s exactly why I do not watch England games, the whole set up is a farce

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Re: England - the future....

by bcubed » 11 Oct 2019 21:33

bcubed
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The Enfield Royal71 Our defence is a serious problem.

Picking our best options may help. TAA and Chilwell. I know Gomez is out of form, but surely we can do better than Keane?


Keane has looked awful


And TAA should be the first name on the team sheet

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Re: England - the future....

by bcubed » 11 Oct 2019 21:36

URZZZZ Not watched it but from the BBC report “England lacking in ideas”. It’s like saying water is wet when we play against any sort of decent team (and that’s a stretch for Czech Republic)

It’s an absolute disgrace that the top scorer in the Premier League cannot play. It’s exactly why I do not watch England games, the whole set up is a farce


Tbf Czech Republic were pretty decent

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Re: England - the future....

by Franchise FC » 11 Oct 2019 21:42

The Enfield Royal71 Our defence is a serious problem.

This has been the worst England performance for some time.

Never looked like scoring and can’t defend for toffee (talking of which the worst of the lot is the vastly overrated Michael Keane)

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Re: England - the future....

by Zip » 11 Oct 2019 21:42

bcubed
URZZZZ Not watched it but from the BBC report “England lacking in ideas”. It’s like saying water is wet when we play against any sort of decent team (and that’s a stretch for Czech Republic)

It’s an absolute disgrace that the top scorer in the Premier League cannot play. It’s exactly why I do not watch England games, the whole set up is a farce


Tbf Czech Republic were pretty decent


They played some excellent football at times. They were good value for the win.


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Re: England - the future....

by URZZZZ » 11 Oct 2019 21:46

Zip
bcubed
URZZZZ Not watched it but from the BBC report “England lacking in ideas”. It’s like saying water is wet when we play against any sort of decent team (and that’s a stretch for Czech Republic)

It’s an absolute disgrace that the top scorer in the Premier League cannot play. It’s exactly why I do not watch England games, the whole set up is a farce


Tbf Czech Republic were pretty decent


They played some excellent football at times. They were good value for the win.


Still

Should Trippier be there
Should Rose be there
Should Keane be there
Should Barkley be there
Should Rashford be there

Where is Alexander Arnold, Chilwell, Abraham. Just weird

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Re: England - the future....

by WestYorksRoyal » 11 Oct 2019 21:50

URZZZZ Not watched it but from the BBC report “England lacking in ideas”. It’s like saying water is wet when we play against any sort of decent team (and that’s a stretch for Czech Republic)

It’s an absolute disgrace that the top scorer in the Premier League cannot play. It’s exactly why I do not watch England games, the whole set up is a farce

Southgate was a breath of fresh air at first, but old habits creeping back into the England set up. Players picked based upon past performance and reputation. But it's over a year since 2018; we must continue being ruthless. Trippier, Rose, Rice and Keane should not be in the team. Shame Maddison was unwell; he must be next in the team. Barkley way behind him and Mount right now

It also seems our irrational hatred of technical midfielders won't disappear. We wasted players like Carrick and Scholes; now we continue to persist with 2 from Henderson, Dier and Rice. How about, instead of 2 DMs, we actually try and keep the ball better and protect our backline through possession?

I think winning Euro 2020 or WC 2022 would be hard in any circumstances given there are better teams. But right we're simply not giving ourselves the best chance. Tonight's result doesn't matter, but I'm still pissed because it's the issues we all know about repeating themselves and we never learn.

Bonus rant: only the English would waste Scholes on the left wing and push him into early retirement to accommodate a hopelessly unbalanced midfield of Gerrard and Lampard. One of the greatest midfielders of his generation; the great Spanish team would have fitted him in. Have we learned? Winks not in the same class, but at least his game is built around giving his team mates options and trying to dictate the game. Why would we not include a player of that ilk when the problem is so oxf*rd obvious?

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Re: England - the future....

by URZZZZ » 11 Oct 2019 22:03

WestYorksRoyal
URZZZZ Not watched it but from the BBC report “England lacking in ideas”. It’s like saying water is wet when we play against any sort of decent team (and that’s a stretch for Czech Republic)

It’s an absolute disgrace that the top scorer in the Premier League cannot play. It’s exactly why I do not watch England games, the whole set up is a farce

Southgate was a breath of fresh air at first, but old habits creeping back into the England set up. Players picked based upon past performance and reputation. But it's over a year since 2018; we must continue being ruthless. Trippier, Rose, Rice and Keane should not be in the team. Shame Maddison was unwell; he must be next in the team. Barkley way behind him and Mount right now

It also seems our irrational hatred of technical midfielders won't disappear. We wasted players like Carrick and Scholes; now we continue to persist with 2 from Henderson, Dier and Rice. How about, instead of 2 DMs, we actually try and keep the ball better and protect our backline through possession?

I think winning Euro 2020 or WC 2022 would be hard in any circumstances given there are better teams. But right we're simply not giving ourselves the best chance. Tonight's result doesn't matter, but I'm still pissed because it's the issues we all know about repeating themselves and we never learn.

Bonus rant: only the English would waste Scholes on the left wing and push him into early retirement to accommodate a hopelessly unbalanced midfield of Gerrard and Lampard. One of the greatest midfielders of his generation; the great Spanish team would have fitted him in. Have we learned? Winks not in the same class, but at least his game is built around giving his team mates options and trying to dictate the game. Why would we not include a player of that ilk when the problem is so oxf*rd obvious?


I’m always alone in this but I like Lallana as an England player. Him and Henderson holding. Sterling out wide. Mount floating around. Kane and Abraham up top. AA and Chilwell providing additional width on the flanks

Of course there’s me saying it should be based on merit so Lallana hasn’t really earnt it. Winks is a bit too average for me though. Rice it is

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Re: England - the future....

by WestYorksRoyal » 11 Oct 2019 22:07

URZZZZ
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URZZZZ Not watched it but from the BBC report “England lacking in ideas”. It’s like saying water is wet when we play against any sort of decent team (and that’s a stretch for Czech Republic)

It’s an absolute disgrace that the top scorer in the Premier League cannot play. It’s exactly why I do not watch England games, the whole set up is a farce

Southgate was a breath of fresh air at first, but old habits creeping back into the England set up. Players picked based upon past performance and reputation. But it's over a year since 2018; we must continue being ruthless. Trippier, Rose, Rice and Keane should not be in the team. Shame Maddison was unwell; he must be next in the team. Barkley way behind him and Mount right now

It also seems our irrational hatred of technical midfielders won't disappear. We wasted players like Carrick and Scholes; now we continue to persist with 2 from Henderson, Dier and Rice. How about, instead of 2 DMs, we actually try and keep the ball better and protect our backline through possession?

I think winning Euro 2020 or WC 2022 would be hard in any circumstances given there are better teams. But right we're simply not giving ourselves the best chance. Tonight's result doesn't matter, but I'm still pissed because it's the issues we all know about repeating themselves and we never learn.

Bonus rant: only the English would waste Scholes on the left wing and push him into early retirement to accommodate a hopelessly unbalanced midfield of Gerrard and Lampard. One of the greatest midfielders of his generation; the great Spanish team would have fitted him in. Have we learned? Winks not in the same class, but at least his game is built around giving his team mates options and trying to dictate the game. Why would we not include a player of that ilk when the problem is so oxf*rd obvious?


I’m always alone in this but I like Lallana as an England player. Him and Henderson holding. Sterling out wide. Mount floating around. Kane and Abraham up top. AA and Chilwell providing additional width on the flanks

Of course there’s me saying it should be based on merit so Lallana hasn’t really earnt it. Winks is a bit too average for me though. Rice it is

The last few England games I haven't even noticed Rice was playing. Some pundits think TAA has the attributes to play in midfield, which could be an option.
Last edited by WestYorksRoyal on 11 Oct 2019 22:09, edited 1 time in total.


Zip
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Re: England - the future....

by Zip » 11 Oct 2019 22:08

URZZZZ
Zip
bcubed
Tbf Czech Republic were pretty decent


They played some excellent football at times. They were good value for the win.


Still

Should Trippier be there
Should Rose be there
Should Keane be there
Should Barkley be there
Should Rashford be there

Where is Alexander Arnold, Chilwell, Abraham. Just weird


Yes question marks over the selection although I would say that Trippier has been part of an Atletico defence that has barely conceded this season.
There was a real lack of intensity tonight and some really sloppy play.

Southgate is very much in credit though but he does need to stop tinkering and settle on his favoured line-up

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Re: England - the future....

by URZZZZ » 11 Oct 2019 22:14

WestYorksRoyal
URZZZZ
WestYorksRoyal Southgate was a breath of fresh air at first, but old habits creeping back into the England set up. Players picked based upon past performance and reputation. But it's over a year since 2018; we must continue being ruthless. Trippier, Rose, Rice and Keane should not be in the team. Shame Maddison was unwell; he must be next in the team. Barkley way behind him and Mount right now

It also seems our irrational hatred of technical midfielders won't disappear. We wasted players like Carrick and Scholes; now we continue to persist with 2 from Henderson, Dier and Rice. How about, instead of 2 DMs, we actually try and keep the ball better and protect our backline through possession?

I think winning Euro 2020 or WC 2022 would be hard in any circumstances given there are better teams. But right we're simply not giving ourselves the best chance. Tonight's result doesn't matter, but I'm still pissed because it's the issues we all know about repeating themselves and we never learn.

Bonus rant: only the English would waste Scholes on the left wing and push him into early retirement to accommodate a hopelessly unbalanced midfield of Gerrard and Lampard. One of the greatest midfielders of his generation; the great Spanish team would have fitted him in. Have we learned? Winks not in the same class, but at least his game is built around giving his team mates options and trying to dictate the game. Why would we not include a player of that ilk when the problem is so oxf*rd obvious?


I’m always alone in this but I like Lallana as an England player. Him and Henderson holding. Sterling out wide. Mount floating around. Kane and Abraham up top. AA and Chilwell providing additional width on the flanks

Of course there’s me saying it should be based on merit so Lallana hasn’t really earnt it. Winks is a bit too average for me though. Rice it is

The last few England games I haven't even noticed Rice was playing. Some pundits think TAA has the attributes to play in midfield, which could be an option.


I do rate Declan Rice but England may be a step up too high for him. He’s better at regaining possession and doing a simple pass. Not really needed in an England team to be fair

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Re: England - the future....

by Hoop Blah » 12 Oct 2019 08:35

England were very poor last night. The new formation clearly didn't work and the midfield didn't get in the game for the first 45 minutes, and that left the 3 forwards far too isolated and starved of the ball. It was better in the second half, but it's very hard to regain the momentum after that first half.

In terms of some of the selections...

Tammy Abraham isn't going to dislodge Harry Kane for quite some time, and rightly so. Kane's link up play is far superior to Abraham's and he set up the penalty and at least one other good chance from it. Although he's not been at his best for England I thought he had a decent second half last night and won lots of headers that almost put Sterling and Sancho in.

Barkley probably did more in the time he was on the pitch than Mason Mount did but he seems to be the target for derision amongst England fans at the moment. He hasn't quite fulfilled his potential, and I'd love to have seem Maddison get his chance last night, but he's done a good job for England during these qualifiers.

I just don't get the Mason Mount hype right now. He's a clever enough player, but he looked out of his depth when he's played for Engand so far. A good prospect, but I'm certainly not on his hype-train. He's clearly a Southgate favourite though.

The full backs...I'm pretty sure TAA and Chillwell are Southgates preferred options but we've got two games in 4 days and he presumably asks them to do quite a shift in either the 4-2-3-1 we started with last night or the 4-3-3 we've favoured since the WC. He must be wary of their workload and so, like the last set of games, is playing 2 in on game and 2 in the other. I don't think I agree with that, but when we've got the options we have I can see why he feels the need to.

I'd have gone with Gomez over Keane every day of the week, but he hasn't played enough games. If I were Southgate I'd have picked him anyway and given him a chance to play his way into form and fitness a little bit as he's a potential long term solution, Keane clearly isn't. Southgate probably feels a little bit of loyalty to Keane because he's played throughout the campaign though.

Rice vs Winks is possibly something similar. Rice is seem as a long term potential solution to that midfield screen that it's often said we need against the better sides to offer a bit of defensive solidity. If we think that we need that against the better sides, and in the latter stages of a tournament, then Rice needs to play as many games as possible really. He can't just be thrown in on the rare occasions we play a better team. Winks is a tidy little player, and I quite like him, but he certainly seems to be one of those players that gets better with every game he doesn't play (for both club and country).

Henderson has probably been England's best midfielder for a couple of years now, and has been excellent for Liverpool too. If England play the 4-3-3 we have done most of the time he should be one of the first names on the teamsheet, either as the holding player, or the more advanced player on the right of the 3.

Southgate is building a side, and a squad. You have to show some loyalty to players to do that but get the balance of rewarding good club form at the same time. I think Southgate has that balance pretty much spot on. He's dropped Walker from the squad completely, and did likewise with Trippier and Lingard. Rashford, a shining light for Southgate for a short time, has been dropped in favour of Sancho. Criticism that he's not picking on club form is a little lacking in grounding for me.

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Re: England - the future....

by Zip » 12 Oct 2019 09:21

Hoop Blah England were very poor last night. The new formation clearly didn't work and the midfield didn't get in the game for the first 45 minutes, and that left the 3 forwards far too isolated and starved of the ball. It was better in the second half, but it's very hard to regain the momentum after that first half.

In terms of some of the selections...

Tammy Abraham isn't going to dislodge Harry Kane for quite some time, and rightly so. Kane's link up play is far superior to Abraham's and he set up the penalty and at least one other good chance from it. Although he's not been at his best for England I thought he had a decent second half last night and won lots of headers that almost put Sterling and Sancho in.

Barkley probably did more in the time he was on the pitch than Mason Mount did but he seems to be the target for derision amongst England fans at the moment. He hasn't quite fulfilled his potential, and I'd love to have seem Maddison get his chance last night, but he's done a good job for England during these qualifiers.

I just don't get the Mason Mount hype right now. He's a clever enough player, but he looked out of his depth when he's played for Engand so far. A good prospect, but I'm certainly not on his hype-train. He's clearly a Southgate favourite though.

The full backs...I'm pretty sure TAA and Chillwell are Southgates preferred options but we've got two games in 4 days and he presumably asks them to do quite a shift in either the 4-2-3-1 we started with last night or the 4-3-3 we've favoured since the WC. He must be wary of their workload and so, like the last set of games, is playing 2 in on game and 2 in the other. I don't think I agree with that, but when we've got the options we have I can see why he feels the need to.

I'd have gone with Gomez over Keane every day of the week, but he hasn't played enough games. If I were Southgate I'd have picked him anyway and given him a chance to play his way into form and fitness a little bit as he's a potential long term solution, Keane clearly isn't. Southgate probably feels a little bit of loyalty to Keane because he's played throughout the campaign though.

Rice vs Winks is possibly something similar. Rice is seem as a long term potential solution to that midfield screen that it's often said we need against the better sides to offer a bit of defensive solidity. If we think that we need that against the better sides, and in the latter stages of a tournament, then Rice needs to play as many games as possible really. He can't just be thrown in on the rare occasions we play a better team. Winks is a tidy little player, and I quite like him, but he certainly seems to be one of those players that gets better with every game he doesn't play (for both club and country).

Henderson has probably been England's best midfielder for a couple of years now, and has been excellent for Liverpool too. If England play the 4-3-3 we have done most of the time he should be one of the first names on the teamsheet, either as the holding player, or the more advanced player on the right of the 3.

Southgate is building a side, and a squad. You have to show some loyalty to players to do that but get the balance of rewarding good club form at the same time. I think Southgate has that balance pretty much spot on. He's dropped Walker from the squad completely, and did likewise with Trippier and Lingard. Rashford, a shining light for Southgate for a short time, has been dropped in favour of Sancho. Criticism that he's not picking on club form is a little lacking in grounding for me.


Fair comment and the point about two games in such a short turnaround is justified. However do you think Southgate knows his best starting line up?


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Re: England - the future....

by WestYorksRoyal » 12 Oct 2019 09:24

You maybe right about Rice. I don't watch West Ham much and a player in his role doesn't grab the highlights reel on MOTD. But whenever I see him for England, I simply don't understand the fuss. I haven't seen him use his supposed intelligence and positioning to break up attacks. I don't see him making simple options for defenders playing out from the back. I don't see simple passes to more creative players. If he's not doing these things, what is the point of him?

Now clearly he is highly regarded and England's midfield is probably not an easy one to settle in to as we still don't have a clear system. But it seems to me he's there to solve a problem England don't have. Dier and Henderson can do the DM role and, though Rice may be a better long term option, a bigger priority is trying to find somebody who can help our defenders play out and control the game. Would even his biggest advocates at West Ham say that's the role for him?

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Re: England - the future....

by WestYorksRoyal » 12 Oct 2019 09:30

I should also add, when we won in Spain our midfield was Dier, Winks, Barkley. Doesn't that just sound more naturally balanced to everybody? I know we withstood a lot of pressure in the 2nd half, but the first half was as accomplished an England performance as I can remember.

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Re: England - the future....

by stealthpapes » 12 Oct 2019 11:17

URZZZZ
I do rate Declan Rice but England may be a step up too high for him. He’s better at regaining possession and doing a simple pass. Not really needed in an England team to be fair


Sorry but what? It really is needed.

WestYorksRoyal I think winning Euro 2020 or WC 2022 would be hard in any circumstances given there are better teams. But right we're simply not giving ourselves the best chance. Tonight's result doesn't matter, but I'm still pissed because it's the issues we all know about repeating themselves and we never learn.

Bonus rant: only the English would waste Scholes on the left wing and push him into early retirement to accommodate a hopelessly unbalanced midfield of Gerrard and Lampard. One of the greatest midfielders of his generation; the great Spanish team would have fitted him in. Have we learned? Winks not in the same class, but at least his game is built around giving his team mates options and trying to dictate the game. Why would we not include a player of that ilk when the problem is so oxf*rd obvious?


Well, the bit in bold, quite. And it links to the bonus rant. We could see it wasn't working and from ca. 2003 to 2008, nothing was done to fix it. They're the best two midfielders, throw them in, they'll work it out. Seemingly no attempt to work out how to develop a gameplan around them.

I don't really know what the solution is, apart from reform of both youth coaching systems and coaching training and hoping it filters through, but after 20 odd years of watching England and the associated media/fan industry make the same mistakes concerning how to approach the squad, matches and tournaments, one has to say there's something fundamentally broken up there.

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Re: England - the future....

by stealthpapes » 12 Oct 2019 11:21

I do think last night's result was partly Southgate's tinkering and partly Czechs having to win to put some air between them and Kosovo. England are all but qualified - Bulgaria on Monday then Montenego in the penultimate game and Kosovo can't catch them whatever happens.

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Re: England - the future....

by Hoop Blah » 12 Oct 2019 11:34

Zip Fair comment and the point about two games in such a short turnaround is justified. However do you think Southgate knows his best starting line up?


I think he's probably pretty close it yeah. The balance in midfield will be the main area for contention, and perhaps the best pairing at centre half.

Do you really expect the England manager to have a clear cut starting eleven though? Despite the doom and gloom about depth of talent (at times) he's got a decent amount of players all competing for a place in the side. There should always be enough competition for a number of places that the team could be open for debate depending on form and fitness.

If, and it's a very big IF, all players were fit and in close to their best form, who would you pick?

TAA vs Walker vs Trippier
Stones vs Gomez vs Maguire
Henderson vs Oxlade-Chamberlain vs Alli vs Barkley vs Mount vs Maddison vs Loftus-Cheek vs Winks
Sterling vs Rashford vs Sancho vs Hudson-Odoi

I think he wants to play 4-3-3 but he'd also quite like to play 4-2-3-1 to get someone like Alli playing in behind Kane. Imagine a forward line or Sterling and Sancho with Kane and Alli from 18 months ago when they were linking up so well.

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Re: England - the future....

by Hoop Blah » 12 Oct 2019 11:35

stealthpapes I do think last night's result was partly Southgate's tinkering and partly Czechs having to win to put some air between them and Kosovo. England are all but qualified - Bulgaria on Monday then Montenego in the penultimate game and Kosovo can't catch them whatever happens.


Absolutely, it was an experiment to see how we went under the 4-2-3-1 that he hasn't played for some time. It didn't really work.

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Re: England - the future....

by Hoop Blah » 12 Oct 2019 11:39

WestYorksRoyal I should also add, when we won in Spain our midfield was Dier, Winks, Barkley. Doesn't that just sound more naturally balanced to everybody? I know we withstood a lot of pressure in the 2nd half, but the first half was as accomplished an England performance as I can remember.


Rice is seen as the longer term upgrade on Dier.

For my money Dier has always been a bit too ponderous to be the answer in that role. I'm not quite convinced that Rice is much better at the moment though. I'd be looking to play Henderson there myself, but he's been very effective in the more advanced role that I can understand the appeal of Rice making that spot his own. It also gives a bit of tactical flexibility because Rice, like Dier, could drop into a back 3 if needed.

I'd like to see Winks have a go at that role too. He's a clever little player but doesn't seem to be able to stay fit or play enough games. He's also not the answer IF we need someone to give that defensive cover to the back four. He offers a different type of player in that role though.

WestYorksRoyal Now clearly he is highly regarded and England's midfield is probably not an easy one to settle in to as we still don't have a clear system. But it seems to me he's there to solve a problem England don't have. Dier and Henderson can do the DM role and, though Rice may be a better long term option, a bigger priority is trying to find somebody who can help our defenders play out and control the game. Would even his biggest advocates at West Ham say that's the role for him?


When he was being praised a lot last year he was being built up as more of a mix of Dier and Winks, ie a defensive midfielder capable of getting on the ball and dictating play a bit, ie an English Busquets. I've not quite seen it yet, but I've not seen that much of him either.

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