England - the future....

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Westwood52
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Re: England - the future....

by Westwood52 » 14 Jul 2021 10:41

Sure Southgate got a lot wrong;but if he wants it,I believe we should stick with him and he will learn from his mistakes.We have tried a “World Class “manager before-Capello ,but it just didn’t work;as he was neither in tune with the players or the clubs.
The invasion of Wembley was a PR disaster ,and head of stadium security needs to take a long hard review of what they got wrong.This must never happen again;or have we learnt nothing since Hillsborough.

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Re: England - the future....

by NathStPaul » 14 Jul 2021 10:45

Westwood52 Sure Southgate got a lot wrong;but if he wants it,I believe we should stick with him and he will learn from his mistakes.We have tried a “World Class “manager before-Capello ,but it just didn’t work;as he was neither in tune with the players or the clubs.
The invasion of Wembley was a PR disaster ,and head of stadium security needs to take a long hard review of what they got wrong.This must never happen again;or have we learnt nothing since Hillsborough.

It has nothing to do with the security, they have no/very little power. They act as a deterrent, the policing is to blame.

Your posts are completely unreadable btw, painful.

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Re: England - the future....

by URZZZZ » 14 Jul 2021 11:11

WestYorksRoyal
Royal Rother Decent analysis from Sky.

https://www.skysports.com/football/news ... obal-en-GB

Comparisons with 2018 against Croatia are valid, but there's a difference. In 2018 nobody could see how we'd ever be close to competing with midfields of Croatia's quality; it looked like a weakness we'd never fix and in 2019 we were trying the likes of Harry Winks as a solution.

That's not the case any more. We have top class midfield option, and I'm hopeful Bellingham will be the best yet by 2022.



You may be right

But weren’t we saying that exact thing in 2018 too? I.e the likes of Winks, Loftus Cheek (who was in the WC squad) could be the next generation of midfielders to compete at the highest level

Both have curtailed into mediocrity since. Important not to place too much pressure on the shoulders of our young players

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Scutterbucketz
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Re: England - the future....

by Scutterbucketz » 14 Jul 2021 11:17

URZZZZ Wonder if there’ll be any legal opportunities for Savills if he turns out to be innocent

I see a couple of companies have dropped links with them since the allegation


LOLz at even talk of this guy being innocent.

A hacker hacked into the account of a estate agent with 30 followers just to post racist abuse. Good one. :lol:

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Re: England - the future....

by URZZZZ » 14 Jul 2021 11:23

Scutterbucketz
URZZZZ Wonder if there’ll be any legal opportunities for Savills if he turns out to be innocent

I see a couple of companies have dropped links with them since the allegation


LOLz at even talk of this guy being innocent.

A hacker hacked into the account of a estate agent with 30 followers just to post racist abuse. Good one. :lol:


You may be right

Just made the point that it’s rather pointless claiming you’ve been hacked given the depths investigations can go into (i.e knowing when and where the exact tweet was posted) as he would easily be outed


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Re: England - the future....

by Scutterbucketz » 14 Jul 2021 11:51

genome Generally club football seems to be pretty good, on the whole, with a few isolated incidents. I don't know what it is about England that brings out the utter morons on such a regular basis.


England brings together all the arseholes from club level who think supporting football means smashing things up, fighting the opposition and generally acting a massive pcunt because they’re too thick to know better.

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Re: England - the future....

by Hendo » 14 Jul 2021 11:51

URZZZZ
WestYorksRoyal
Royal Rother Decent analysis from Sky.

https://www.skysports.com/football/news ... obal-en-GB

Comparisons with 2018 against Croatia are valid, but there's a difference. In 2018 nobody could see how we'd ever be close to competing with midfields of Croatia's quality; it looked like a weakness we'd never fix and in 2019 we were trying the likes of Harry Winks as a solution.

That's not the case any more. We have top class midfield option, and I'm hopeful Bellingham will be the best yet by 2022.



You may be right

But weren’t we saying that exact thing in 2018 too? I.e the likes of Winks, Loftus Cheek (who was in the WC squad) could be the next generation of midfielders to compete at the highest level

Both have curtailed into mediocrity since. Important not to place too much pressure on the shoulders of our young players


I think the difference with those you have mentioned is that they're currently playing at clubs where they're first choice, Rice at West Ham and Phillips at Leeds, where as Winks and Loftus Cheek were never really first choice/good enough to nail down a starting role with Spurs or Chelsea.

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Re: England - the future....

by Scutterbucketz » 14 Jul 2021 11:54

URZZZZ
Scutterbucketz
URZZZZ Wonder if there’ll be any legal opportunities for Savills if he turns out to be innocent

I see a couple of companies have dropped links with them since the allegation


LOLz at even talk of this guy being innocent.

A hacker hacked into the account of a estate agent with 30 followers just to post racist abuse. Good one. :lol:


You may be right

Just made the point that it’s rather pointless claiming you’ve been hacked given the depths investigations can go into (i.e knowing when and where the exact tweet was posted) as he would easily be outed


He’s probably hoping people will lose interest or that twitter won’t be arsed to do the work to confirm it’s him. Hopefully just delaying things and nothing more.

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Re: England - the future....

by WestYorksRoyal » 14 Jul 2021 12:03

Hendo
URZZZZ
WestYorksRoyal Comparisons with 2018 against Croatia are valid, but there's a difference. In 2018 nobody could see how we'd ever be close to competing with midfields of Croatia's quality; it looked like a weakness we'd never fix and in 2019 we were trying the likes of Harry Winks as a solution.

That's not the case any more. We have top class midfield option, and I'm hopeful Bellingham will be the best yet by 2022.



You may be right

But weren’t we saying that exact thing in 2018 too? I.e the likes of Winks, Loftus Cheek (who was in the WC squad) could be the next generation of midfielders to compete at the highest level

Both have curtailed into mediocrity since. Important not to place too much pressure on the shoulders of our young players


I think the difference with those you have mentioned is that they're currently playing at clubs where they're first choice, Rice at West Ham and Phillips at Leeds, where as Winks and Loftus Cheek were never really first choice/good enough to nail down a starting role with Spurs or Chelsea.

Bellingham is already a massive player for Dortmund who has played in CL knockout games for them. Mount and Foden have been key players for very good sides. This bunch are light years ahead.


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Re: England - the future....

by Hendo » 14 Jul 2021 12:05

WestYorksRoyal
Hendo
URZZZZ
You may be right

But weren’t we saying that exact thing in 2018 too? I.e the likes of Winks, Loftus Cheek (who was in the WC squad) could be the next generation of midfielders to compete at the highest level

Both have curtailed into mediocrity since. Important not to place too much pressure on the shoulders of our young players


I think the difference with those you have mentioned is that they're currently playing at clubs where they're first choice, Rice at West Ham and Phillips at Leeds, where as Winks and Loftus Cheek were never really first choice/good enough to nail down a starting role with Spurs or Chelsea.

Bellingham is already a massive player for Dortmund who has played in CL knockout games for them. Mount and Foden have been key players for very good sides. This bunch are light years ahead.


Yep, couldn't agree more.

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Re: England - the future....

by TiagoIlori » 14 Jul 2021 12:07

Sanguine
TiagoIlori We never had such a good shot at winning both the World Cup and Euros as we did over the last three years. Even the most extreme of Southgate’s backers would be annoyed at his game management there, especially after he made the exact same mistake against Croatia. Those games were when that midfield battle was lost and it seems to be a three man midfield that does it, if he can’t build the next few blocks and get us adaptable to games like this then he may as well hand in his resignation notice tomorrow morning. If he has ideas then great, I look forward to seeing them in action.

He’s got absolutely everything else to show he’s a top manager, the lack of good English managers shows we’re not going to get much better, I hope he doesn’t throw it all away.


He has ideas. That's why he's become the first England manager ever to make both a tournament semi-final and final, and he's done it consecutively. Immediacy can be for the playground. We're on to a good thing with Southgate as England manager. Personally I'd give him the job for as long as he wants it. Sadly the second we next lose a game, or if, say, we 'only' make the QFs in Qatar, his critics will cite it as 'proof' that he isn't up to it.

He’s done it consecutively but failed on the same hurdle, tried sitting back against Italy for 88 minutes which was suicidal, he needs to be more brave and not wait to make tactical adjustments until a goal has been scored- he needed to go 433 after how we started the second half. That was obvious for everyone to see.

If he beats the big dogs next year in Qatar then that alone should be enough to warrant him staying (Germany were no better than Denmark this tournament). Beat one of Argentina, Brazil, Italy and possibly Spain, France or Germany if they can get their act together. We can beat the near top teams where we are favourites (Germany, Denmark) so I just want to see progress.

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Re: England - the future....

by NathStPaul » 14 Jul 2021 12:08

Hendo
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Hendo
I think the difference with those you have mentioned is that they're currently playing at clubs where they're first choice, Rice at West Ham and Phillips at Leeds, where as Winks and Loftus Cheek were never really first choice/good enough to nail down a starting role with Spurs or Chelsea.

Bellingham is already a massive player for Dortmund who has played in CL knockout games for them. Mount and Foden have been key players for very good sides. This bunch are light years ahead.


Yep, couldn't agree more.

Can't remember us being stronger in terms of the amount of high quality young players available. You could even argue we have the strongest crop of youngsters in world football.

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Re: England - the future....

by URZZZZ » 14 Jul 2021 12:12

Hendo
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Hendo
I think the difference with those you have mentioned is that they're currently playing at clubs where they're first choice, Rice at West Ham and Phillips at Leeds, where as Winks and Loftus Cheek were never really first choice/good enough to nail down a starting role with Spurs or Chelsea.

Bellingham is already a massive player for Dortmund who has played in CL knockout games for them. Mount and Foden have been key players for very good sides. This bunch are light years ahead.


Yep, couldn't agree more.


Sure - the signs are promising - the overriding point really was that we shouldn’t be putting too much pressure on our young players

Didn’t Loftus Cheek come off a really successful loan spell at Palace before the WC (yeah I know, comparing Palace to Dortmund/Chelsea/City :lol: ) Was more emphasising how quickly players’ fortunes can change

Dier is also another classic example as he was excellent for the first few years for Spurs - playing regularly - the new “star” of the England midfield, and he’s now the laughing stock of the country
Not suggesting that Rice and Bellingham and co will fall the same way but just making the point


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Re: England - the future....

by Whore Jackie » 14 Jul 2021 12:36

Think Dele Alli and Loftus-Cheek are the biggest disappointments since the WC. You may also have hoped Butland would have pushed on, but he seemed on a downward trajectory even then.

Interesting that of those that started in the SF against Croatia, 7 started against Italy. Of the other 4, Henderson came on, Young's now past it, Lingard a little unlucky not to make the squad this time and Alli, totally out of favour and nowhere near.

Mount, Rice, Shaw and Phillips were arguably minor improvements to the team and the squad as a whole was much stronger. Only Rashford (and Trent and Pope, but both withdrew pre-Euros) from that WC squad, made this one, which goes to show how quickly things can change. If I were Southgate, I'd be genuinely excited about the next WC, but there'll need to be some fundamental replacements to the team spine for the next Euros.

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Re: England - the future....

by Sanguine » 14 Jul 2021 12:51

TiagoIlori
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TiagoIlori We never had such a good shot at winning both the World Cup and Euros as we did over the last three years. Even the most extreme of Southgate’s backers would be annoyed at his game management there, especially after he made the exact same mistake against Croatia. Those games were when that midfield battle was lost and it seems to be a three man midfield that does it, if he can’t build the next few blocks and get us adaptable to games like this then he may as well hand in his resignation notice tomorrow morning. If he has ideas then great, I look forward to seeing them in action.

He’s got absolutely everything else to show he’s a top manager, the lack of good English managers shows we’re not going to get much better, I hope he doesn’t throw it all away.


He has ideas. That's why he's become the first England manager ever to make both a tournament semi-final and final, and he's done it consecutively. Immediacy can be for the playground. We're on to a good thing with Southgate as England manager. Personally I'd give him the job for as long as he wants it. Sadly the second we next lose a game, or if, say, we 'only' make the QFs in Qatar, his critics will cite it as 'proof' that he isn't up to it.

He’s done it consecutively but failed on the same hurdle, tried sitting back against Italy for 88 minutes which was suicidal, he needs to be more brave and not wait to make tactical adjustments until a goal has been scored- he needed to go 433 after how we started the second half. That was obvious for everyone to see.

If he beats the big dogs next year in Qatar then that alone should be enough to warrant him staying (Germany were no better than Denmark this tournament). Beat one of Argentina, Brazil, Italy and possibly Spain, France or Germany if they can get their act together. We can beat the near top teams where we are favourites (Germany, Denmark) so I just want to see progress.


Germany are a top team. They don't become shite just because we beat them. Remember at one point during the final group games we were playing each and every team in Germany's group. They weren't as 'poor' as people want to remember them.

Spain is an interesting one. The reason they weren't in our side of the knockout rounds is because they came second in their group to Sweden. Who lost to Ukraine. Who we hammered.

If you're waiting for an England manager who will 'progress' to regularly beating the best sides in the world (Southgate can boast away wins over Spain and Netherlands, of course), then you'll be waiting forever. People speak as if the other sides don't get a say in our results, too. We did get draws with Germany, Brazil and Italy ahead of the 2018 World Cup, and our 3-2 defeat in France was considered an excellent performance (I wonder if we'd take an expansive losing performance like that over a tighter draw or win?).

If the bar for Southgate's success is raised as high as many want it to be, it gets a bit silly.

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Re: England - the future....

by WestYorksRoyal » 14 Jul 2021 12:57

URZZZZ
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WestYorksRoyal Bellingham is already a massive player for Dortmund who has played in CL knockout games for them. Mount and Foden have been key players for very good sides. This bunch are light years ahead.


Yep, couldn't agree more.


Sure - the signs are promising - the overriding point really was that we shouldn’t be putting too much pressure on our young players

Didn’t Loftus Cheek come off a really successful loan spell at Palace before the WC (yeah I know, comparing Palace to Dortmund/Chelsea/City :lol: ) Was more emphasising how quickly players’ fortunes can change

Dier is also another classic example as he was excellent for the first few years for Spurs - playing regularly - the new “star” of the England midfield, and he’s now the laughing stock of the country
Not suggesting that Rice and Bellingham and co will fall the same way but just making the point

Of course it can go wrong. It's easy to forget how good Wilshere was when he started out for Arsenal until he lost out to injuries. And Alli has basically fallen off a cliff in football terms; he peaked in his teens.

But I'm hoping that these guys are grounded and well managed to keep their development going. Can't imagine them showing the attitude of Alli.

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Re: England - the future....

by Scutterbucketz » 14 Jul 2021 14:17

England team refuse to meet Johnson.

With the reach they have I wish it was more than Tyrone Mings speaking out.

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Re: England - the future....

by TiagoIlori » 14 Jul 2021 15:25

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He has ideas. That's why he's become the first England manager ever to make both a tournament semi-final and final, and he's done it consecutively. Immediacy can be for the playground. We're on to a good thing with Southgate as England manager. Personally I'd give him the job for as long as he wants it. Sadly the second we next lose a game, or if, say, we 'only' make the QFs in Qatar, his critics will cite it as 'proof' that he isn't up to it.

He’s done it consecutively but failed on the same hurdle, tried sitting back against Italy for 88 minutes which was suicidal, he needs to be more brave and not wait to make tactical adjustments until a goal has been scored- he needed to go 433 after how we started the second half. That was obvious for everyone to see.

If he beats the big dogs next year in Qatar then that alone should be enough to warrant him staying (Germany were no better than Denmark this tournament). Beat one of Argentina, Brazil, Italy and possibly Spain, France or Germany if they can get their act together. We can beat the near top teams where we are favourites (Germany, Denmark) so I just want to see progress.


Germany are a top team. They don't become shite just because we beat them. Remember at one point during the final group games we were playing each and every team in Germany's group. They weren't as 'poor' as people want to remember them.

Spain is an interesting one. The reason they weren't in our side of the knockout rounds is because they came second in their group to Sweden. Who lost to Ukraine. Who we hammered.

If you're waiting for an England manager who will 'progress' to regularly beating the best sides in the world (Southgate can boast away wins over Spain and Netherlands, of course), then you'll be waiting forever. People speak as if the other sides don't get a say in our results, too. We did get draws with Germany, Brazil and Italy ahead of the 2018 World Cup, and our 3-2 defeat in France was considered an excellent performance (I wonder if we'd take an expansive losing performance like that over a tighter draw or win?).

If the bar for Southgate's success is raised as high as many want it to be, it gets a bit silly.

Germany have been a shadow of themselves since the 2016 Euros, it’s not a matter of we beat them they must be awful it’s simply they did not look like a side capable of winning the tournament this Euros or the last World Cup. Ask any German how they felt coming up to this tournament.

Spain 100% got better as time went on, they looked awful until that Slovakia game where it seemed like it was starting to click, otherwise it was a load of sideways passing with players that did not understand the system Enrique wanted. Maybe it was a tournament too soon for them, I don’t know.

I’m waiting for a manager that can beat a genuine contender in a major tournament as long has been England’s stumbling block, we’ve always been able to beat these teams outside them yet not when it mattered. It doesn’t mean winning everything to show that.

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Re: England - the future....

by Sanguine » 14 Jul 2021 15:42

Lol. So find a way to sneak past a decent Spain team in a major tournament, and winning the thing doesn't matter, we can say we've taken a big scalp. #henmanfistbump

I'm thoroughly fed up with people 'qualifying' our success with the view that we only got there because the opposition were sub-standard. I repeat my earlier point, if the only satisfactory manager makes us (effectively) the best team in Europe/the world, then you'll be waiting forever.

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Re: England - the future....

by Orion1871 » 14 Jul 2021 19:48

A Germany team outside of the world top 10 is a bad Germany team. They came into the tournament as a team in transition who had a lame duck manager.

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