England - the future....

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Royal Rother
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Re: England - the future....

by Royal Rother » 14 Oct 2020 21:51

Bit knee-jerk but I’m done with Southgate now.

Pathetic management from start to finish. Leaving Grealish on the bench in a situation where we needed someone to create something / anything by taking players on was brainless. Mount did nothing. Rashford did nothing. He needed to completely change the dynamic at HT and should have brought on Grealish and Sancho but did nothing. Playing an obviously out of sorts Maguire was daft. Bringing on Henderson as a last roll of the dice was hopeless.

Where is the expansive, exciting football we played when he 1st came in? Now he’s made his mark he’s going down the same path they all do - too scared to lose, so plays it “safe”.

From here on in, it is going to get worse under Southgate. I’ve seen it so many times - he won’t change so we will continue to go backwards.

Such a shame.

Mind you, the ref was even worse.

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Re: England - the future....

by Ascotexgunner » 14 Oct 2020 21:54

Old Man Andrews That was utterly shite. Southgate clearly has no authority, the players do whatever they like, behave like morons on and off the pitch and he makes really odd substitutions. Out of his depth.


It does baffle me that with the talent England have, they never seem to set the world on fire. The depth of talent available to Southgate seems endless.

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Re: England - the future....

by Zip » 14 Oct 2020 21:55

Some ridiculous comments re Southgate on here. Judge him on the major tournaments where to date he has done very well.

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Re: England - the future....

by Royal Rother » 14 Oct 2020 22:01

Zip Some ridiculous comments re Southgate on here. Judge him on the major tournaments where to date he has done very well.


That’s history. Judge on what is happening now.

The job has changed him and his approach. There’s no going back.

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Re: England - the future....

by Old Man Andrews » 14 Oct 2020 22:01

Zip Some ridiculous comments re Southgate on here. Judge him on the major tournaments where to date he has done very well.

How well did we actually do? Easy group, lucky against Colombia, failed when it mattered against a very beatable Croatia. We weren't great at the World Cup if you look at all the games individually.

Southgate doesn't need sacking just yet but he has really shown a lot of chinks in the armour recently. Really poor squad selection and terrible in game substitutions.


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Re: England - the future....

by Zip » 14 Oct 2020 22:07

Royal Rother
Zip Some ridiculous comments re Southgate on here. Judge him on the major tournaments where to date he has done very well.


That’s history. Judge on what is happening now.

The job has changed him and his approach. There’s no going back.


Nope. When it comes to the Euro Finals he will know what his preferred selection is and I fully expect England to be there or thereabouts. These Nations League games are of little consequence. Besides who are you going to replace him with? His overall record is impressive. This is kneejerk stuff.

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Re: England - the future....

by Ascotexgunner » 14 Oct 2020 22:09

Zip Some ridiculous comments re Southgate on here. Judge him on the major tournaments where to date he has done very well.


TBF that WC England had a pretty easy run to the semi but as the above said, they seemed to be playing safe and within themselves. Come the semi v Croatia, the first really tough game, they had Croatia on the ropes, scored the goal, then went out with a wimper and back to the "safe" game and didn't even look like scoring again.
Good managers lead from the bench. Same will happen at the next tournament as well when they play a quality side. I don't think Southgate has the expertise to cope with all the talent they have at their disposal.

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Re: England - the future....

by Zip » 14 Oct 2020 22:13

Ascotexgunner
Zip Some ridiculous comments re Southgate on here. Judge him on the major tournaments where to date he has done very well.


TBF that WC England had a pretty easy run to the semi but as the above said, they seemed to be playing safe and within themselves. Come the semi v Croatia, the first really tough game, they had Croatia on the ropes, scored the goal, then went out with a wimper and back to the "safe" game and didn't even look like scoring again.
Good managers lead from the bench. Same will happen at the next tournament as well when they play a quality side. I don't think Southgate has the expertise to cope with all the talent they have at their disposal.


Don’t agree with the not scoring again bit v Croatia. Harry Kane missed a sitter just before half time. It should have been 2-0 and game over. Just look at Southgate’s overall record. Denmark are one of the most streetwise teams in world football. They always go under the radar.
Let’s judge Southgate at the Euros when it will really count.

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Re: England - the future....

by Ascotexgunner » 14 Oct 2020 22:18

Zip
Ascotexgunner
Zip Some ridiculous comments re Southgate on here. Judge him on the major tournaments where to date he has done very well.


TBF that WC England had a pretty easy run to the semi but as the above said, they seemed to be playing safe and within themselves. Come the semi v Croatia, the first really tough game, they had Croatia on the ropes, scored the goal, then went out with a wimper and back to the "safe" game and didn't even look like scoring again.
Good managers lead from the bench. Same will happen at the next tournament as well when they play a quality side. I don't think Southgate has the expertise to cope with all the talent they have at their disposal.


Don’t agree with the not scoring again bit v Croatia. Harry Kane missed a sitter just before half time. It should have been 2-0 and game over. Just look at Southgate’s overall record. Denmark are one of the most streetwise teams in world football. They always go under the radar.
Let’s judge Southgate at the Euros when it will really count.


I'm not saying get rid of him, but next year's Euros I think maybe the true test of which way this team are heading under him. I prefer the Euros to the WC, as I think it's a lot harder. There are no Panama's and the quality that didn't qualify for the WC like Italy and Holland will be there.


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Re: England - the future....

by Zip » 14 Oct 2020 22:25

Ascotexgunner
Zip
Ascotexgunner
TBF that WC England had a pretty easy run to the semi but as the above said, they seemed to be playing safe and within themselves. Come the semi v Croatia, the first really tough game, they had Croatia on the ropes, scored the goal, then went out with a wimper and back to the "safe" game and didn't even look like scoring again.
Good managers lead from the bench. Same will happen at the next tournament as well when they play a quality side. I don't think Southgate has the expertise to cope with all the talent they have at their disposal.


Don’t agree with the not scoring again bit v Croatia. Harry Kane missed a sitter just before half time. It should have been 2-0 and game over. Just look at Southgate’s overall record. Denmark are one of the most streetwise teams in world football. They always go under the radar.
Let’s judge Southgate at the Euros when it will really count.


I'm not saying get rid of him, but next year's Euros I think maybe the true test of which way this team are heading under him. I prefer the Euros to the WC, as I think it's a lot harder. There are no Panama's and the quality that didn't qualify for the WC like Italy and Holland will be there.


Sure. To sack him now given his record would be mad. I think England will do very well and make the semi finals and possibly beyond.

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Re: England - the future....

by URZZZZ » 15 Oct 2020 01:08

Royal Rother Bit knee-jerk but I’m done with Southgate now.

Pathetic management from start to finish. Leaving Grealish on the bench in a situation where we needed someone to create something / anything by taking players on was brainless. Mount did nothing. Rashford did nothing. He needed to completely change the dynamic at HT and should have brought on Grealish and Sancho but did nothing. Playing an obviously out of sorts Maguire was daft. Bringing on Henderson as a last roll of the dice was hopeless.

Where is the expansive, exciting football we played when he 1st came in? Now he’s made his mark he’s going down the same path they all do - too scared to lose, so plays it “safe”.

From here on in, it is going to get worse under Southgate. I’ve seen it so many times - he won’t change so we will continue to go backwards.

Such a shame.

Mind you, the ref was even worse.


Not sure we ever saw this expansive football from him, even when he first came in

Like I said earlier in the week, we don’t create nearly enough chances, and if we don’t score from a set piece, we don’t look threatening at all

There’s just so many things wrong with the team selections I don’t even know where to start. No LB on the pitch, even with Saka in fine form sitting on the bench. Rice and Phillips as a duo, I mean really? Mount. Even Rashford. Don’t get it

That being said, I’m not a fan of 5 at the back anyway, miles too restrictive and really needs a specific calibre of players to work efficiently
I hope we revert back to a flat back four come the major tournaments

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Re: England - the future....

by URZZZZ » 15 Oct 2020 01:11

Old Man Andrews
Zip Some ridiculous comments re Southgate on here. Judge him on the major tournaments where to date he has done very well.

How well did we actually do? Easy group, lucky against Colombia, failed when it mattered against a very beatable Croatia. We weren't great at the World Cup if you look at all the games individually.

Southgate doesn't need sacking just yet but he has really shown a lot of chinks in the armour recently. Really poor squad selection and terrible in game substitutions.


I think he’s someone that got the team spirit going. Euro 2016 was a disjointed mess and we needed someone to boost confidence, something Southgate did perfectly

But at some stage, you need to convert this unity into actual quality. Given that performances are regressing rather than improving in recent times, I’m not Southgate has the nous to deliver that quality

Reminiscent of a certain Mark Bowen I guess :?

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Re: England - the future....

by Sanguine » 15 Oct 2020 09:12

Lots of revisionism in respect of how we were playing under Southgate, which was expansive and exciting football. But it has disappeared, for reasons I don't really understand. Mount over Grealish, not least given current form, I will never understand. And at a time where we have been missing Raheem Sterling to injury, Sancho played just 18 minutes across the two games for which he was available. I also fail to understand the obsession with Rice - if we're going to go with a functional but unexciting engine in midfield then we already have the best exponent of that in Jordan Henderson.

Maguire clearly needs a rest - his problems are two-fold, 1) he isn't an £80m defender, he is an over-priced £30m defender who is now out of form, and 2) his head is fcuked following the Mykonos stuff. Give the guy a break. Southgate needs to switch to 4 at the back - two centre-backs out of Gomez, Mings, Coady, and James Tarkowski who has arguably been the most consistent English centre-back of the last two seasons.

Henderson

A-A
Gomez/Tarkowski
Mings
Chilwell

Henderson
Phillips (quietly very effective in my view)
Grealish

Sterling
Kane
Rashford/Sancho

appears to be our best available side. So let's pick it. And we're spoilt to have the likes of James, Saka, Rice, Mount, Coady, Maitland-Niles, Greenwood, Ox, Maddison etc in reserve.


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Re: England - the future....

by Old Man Andrews » 15 Oct 2020 10:34

Henderson

James
Tarkowski
Coady
Chilwell

Henderson
Trent Alexander-Arnold
Foden

Rashford
Kane
Greenwood

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Re: England - the future....

by bcubed » 15 Oct 2020 12:05

Sanguine Lots of revisionism in respect of how we were playing under Southgate, which was expansive and exciting football. But it has disappeared, for reasons I don't really understand. Mount over Grealish, not least given current form, I will never understand. And at a time where we have been missing Raheem Sterling to injury, Sancho played just 18 minutes across the two games for which he was available. I also fail to understand the obsession with Rice - if we're going to go with a functional but unexciting engine in midfield then we already have the best exponent of that in Jordan Henderson.

Maguire clearly needs a rest - his problems are two-fold, 1) he isn't an £80m defender, he is an over-priced £30m defender who is now out of form, and 2) his head is fcuked following the Mykonos stuff. Give the guy a break. Southgate needs to switch to 4 at the back - two centre-backs out of Gomez, Mings, Coady, and James Tarkowski who has arguably been the most consistent English centre-back of the last two seasons.

Henderson

A-A
Gomez/Tarkowski
Mings
Chilwell

Henderson
Phillips (quietly very effective in my view)
Grealish

Sterling
Kane
Rashford/Sancho

appears to be our best available side. So let's pick it. And we're spoilt to have the likes of James, Saka, Rice, Mount, Coady, Maitland-Niles, Greenwood, Ox, Maddison etc in reserve.


Yep
About right

I also think Phillips has been pretty good, apart from the first half of his first game. Very solid. Good positioning, tackles well and not bad passing

I'd be happy starting with James too, although I was shocked TAA wasn't playing.

And I'm not sure about Kane right now. He gets free kicks awarded in our favour and takes penalties well but frankly I think we looked better with Dominic CL up front.

And bottom line is most of our attacking play recently has centred around Sterling. He doesn't play, we look toothless

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Re: England - the future....

by South Coast Royal » 15 Oct 2020 13:47

Not always in agreement with HNA posters but today, yes.

I thought I must have missed a different game when I heard Redknapp, Scott, Rice, Kane and Southgate all suggesting that England played well.
As I saw it, Denmark were on top and making most of the running before the sending-off and as the game went on started getting a bit nervous and , reasonably comfortably, protecting a lead.

The paper talk after the Belgium game was all about how we can now conquer the world but last night it was back to reality for us watching but not so for the manager and the players.
Southgate saying that in a home game at Wembley against a supposedly much lesser side he was happy for us to try and get free-kicks and play long balls into the box unfortunately showed how he sees the game.
Also, as others have said, playing 2 holding midfielders in a home game was negative from the start.

A manager who picks Dier as a centre-back and plays Walker there as well even when we have some reasonable centre-backs available strikes me as one who wants to squeeze certain favoured players into the line-up.
Surprisingly despite the 2 red cards and all the other recent nonsense off the pitch he still thinks there is no problem with discipline .

Agreed re-Grealish,a player right on top of his game and with greater imagination than most.
The game was crying out for him to come on and the idea that he doesn't have pace is farcical-as Redknapp pointed out, if you wanted free-kicks he is your man, being the most fouled player in the Premier League.

Southgate is a bright, level-headed bloke who has done well but it does look as though he has now fallen into the trap of being over-cautious and by being over-cautious you don't win tournaments.,

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Re: England - the future....

by Sanguine » 15 Oct 2020 14:00

That last bit is what is most surprising Vic - that last year we were playing decent, attacking football and Southgate genuinely looked like the right man to take this exciting group of players forward. I don't really understand where his change in approach has come from.

It's a cliche about players getting better when they aren't involved, but in this case I think Raheem Sterling, if he wasn't already, has become the first name on the England team sheet over the last two weeks.

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Re: England - the future....

by South Coast Royal » 15 Oct 2020 16:29

Also I think he may have been persuaded not to start with Gomez, Trent, Henderson or Calvert-Lewin because of the Merseyside derby at Saturday lunchtime.
I wish he had done the same with Pickford but I suppose that Pope will just have to bide his time.

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Re: England - the future....

by bcubed » 15 Oct 2020 17:53

Sanguine That last bit is what is most surprising Vic - that last year we were playing decent, attacking football and Southgate genuinely looked like the right man to take this exciting group of players forward. I don't really understand where his change in approach has come from.

It's a cliche about players getting better when they aren't involved, but in this case I think Raheem Sterling, if he wasn't already, has become the first name on the England team sheet over the last two weeks.


But he already was the first name imo and the fast attacking football you mentioned revolved around Sterling. We look devoid of ideas without him

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Re: England - the future....

by Sutekh » 15 Oct 2020 18:08

bcubed
Sanguine That last bit is what is most surprising Vic - that last year we were playing decent, attacking football and Southgate genuinely looked like the right man to take this exciting group of players forward. I don't really understand where his change in approach has come from.

It's a cliche about players getting better when they aren't involved, but in this case I think Raheem Sterling, if he wasn't already, has become the first name on the England team sheet over the last two weeks.


But he already was the first name imo and the fast attacking football you mentioned revolved around Sterling. We look devoid of ideas without him


Is being in that position a problem with the manager or just down to England’s lack of talent?

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