England - the future....

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stealthpapes
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Re: England - the future....

by stealthpapes » 25 Jun 2013 12:31

I've said it pretty much every year for the last decade and a bit, but English footballers are, broadly, fucking dim.

I'm not talking book smarts, I'm talking about reading a game and doing intelligent things on the pitch. It's all instinctive and powerful and, while its enough for the qualification part of the tournament, where you're playing 3 or 4 countries that have a tenth of the wealth and half the population, the moment you're up against anyone decent, you fail.

England can continue doing it wrong, or it can change.

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Re: England - the future....

by stealthpapes » 25 Jun 2013 12:36

There's also only so far you can improve players and only so good you can get the majority of players. We're almost at that point and getting that last bit is tough. Iraq have seemingly got their players up to a similar standard pretty quickly because that's easier than turning already good players into world beaters (which is where we're at).


Iraq have been quite good for most of the last decade - Asian Cup winners and Olympic SemiFinals in the middle of the 2000s. Not brilliant but not as far back as you'd think.

But on the first point, I think there's aspects of the sport, the training and the attitude that the UK don't consider as relevant which other countries have squared away. It might sound ridiculous but 15-20 years ago, Premier League clubs were resisting the first wave of sports science and nutrition (Jo Venglos, 1990, would be the first manager I can think of that tried but it took Wenger's approach at Arsenal 6 odd years later to see it done). That its such a no-brainer now shows how ridiculous the previous approach had been.

Look at the level and tone of punditry - its very much pitched against the idea that you can do anything intelligent or appraise the game in anything more complex than "he's a top, top player".

It's wrong.

It will change. Not until the players from the mid90s/early00s start really getting into senior management positions though, I think.

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Re: England - the future....

by ZacNaloen » 25 Jun 2013 12:39

stealthpapes I've said it pretty much every year for the last decade and a bit, but English footballers are, broadly, fucking dim.

I'm not talking book smarts, I'm talking about reading a game and doing intelligent things on the pitch. It's all instinctive and powerful and, while its enough for the qualification part of the tournament, where you're playing 3 or 4 countries that have a tenth of the wealth and half the population, the moment you're up against anyone decent, you fail.

England can continue doing it wrong, or it can change.


It's the game our 5-10 year olds play that is the reason this doesn't work.

I don't know what they are doing with the kids right now, but it's clear when we get to tournaments that the players coming through now still haven't go that "instinctual" awareness of what is going on the football pitch that will allows us to compete with the top countries where most of their players do have this.

It's like we are the best of the shit countries.

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Re: England - the future....

by ZacNaloen » 25 Jun 2013 12:39

stealthpapes
There's also only so far you can improve players and only so good you can get the majority of players. We're almost at that point and getting that last bit is tough. Iraq have seemingly got their players up to a similar standard pretty quickly because that's easier than turning already good players into world beaters (which is where we're at).


Iraq have been quite good for most of the last decade - Asian Cup winners and Olympic SemiFinals in the middle of the 2000s. Not brilliant but not as far back as you'd think.

But on the first point, I think there's aspects of the sport, the training and the attitude that the UK don't consider as relevant which other countries have squared away. It might sound ridiculous but 15-20 years ago, Premier League clubs were resisting the first wave of sports science and nutrition (Jo Venglos, 1990, would be the first manager I can think of that tried but it took Wenger's approach at Arsenal 6 odd years later to see it done). That its such a no-brainer now shows how ridiculous the previous approach had been.

Look at the level and tone of punditry - its very much pitched against the idea that you can do anything intelligent or appraise the game in anything more complex than "he's a top, top player".

It's wrong.

It will change. Not until the players from the mid90s/early00s start really getting into senior management positions though, I think.



"It's a simple game"

hate that one.

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Re: England - the future....

by stealthpapes » 25 Jun 2013 12:43

ZacNaloen
stealthpapes I've said it pretty much every year for the last decade and a bit, but English footballers are, broadly, fucking dim.

I'm not talking book smarts, I'm talking about reading a game and doing intelligent things on the pitch. It's all instinctive and powerful and, while its enough for the qualification part of the tournament, where you're playing 3 or 4 countries that have a tenth of the wealth and half the population, the moment you're up against anyone decent, you fail.

England can continue doing it wrong, or it can change.


It's the game our 5-10 year olds play that is the reason this doesn't work.

I don't know what they are doing with the kids right now, but it's clear when we get to tournaments that the players coming through now still haven't go that "instinctual" awareness of what is going on the football pitch that will allows us to compete with the top countries where most of their players do have this.

It's like we are the best of the shit countries.


I don't think its instinctive. I think its learned/taught. But from such a young age, it becomes like my mathematics skills (for example) seem instinctive. They're just practiced and trained.

FWIW, the coaching courses I did were trying to produce a change in the way younger people play football. Smaller pitches, smaller goals, less emphasis on physical strengths and weaknesses. But then again, Germany and France have something like ten times as many people with coaching badges of any level than the UK does.


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Re: England - the future....

by Royal Rother » 25 Jun 2013 12:44

I think it's a shame that Gary Neville has decided (for the moment) to follow a career in media rather than coaching and management.

I feel he could have been the one to really lead the way for young English coaches to take on their European counterparts.

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Re: England - the future....

by ZacNaloen » 25 Jun 2013 12:46

stealthpapes
ZacNaloen
stealthpapes I've said it pretty much every year for the last decade and a bit, but English footballers are, broadly, fucking dim.

I'm not talking book smarts, I'm talking about reading a game and doing intelligent things on the pitch. It's all instinctive and powerful and, while its enough for the qualification part of the tournament, where you're playing 3 or 4 countries that have a tenth of the wealth and half the population, the moment you're up against anyone decent, you fail.

England can continue doing it wrong, or it can change.


It's the game our 5-10 year olds play that is the reason this doesn't work.

I don't know what they are doing with the kids right now, but it's clear when we get to tournaments that the players coming through now still haven't go that "instinctual" awareness of what is going on the football pitch that will allows us to compete with the top countries where most of their players do have this.

It's like we are the best of the shit countries.


I don't think its instinctive. I think its learned/taught. But from such a young age, it becomes like my mathematics skills (for example) seem instinctive. They're just practiced and trained.


That's why I put instinctual in quotes. Everyone misuses the term in that manner so I thought I'd better lampshade that I know it's wrong :)

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Re: England - the future....

by ZacNaloen » 25 Jun 2013 12:47

Royal Rother I think it's a shame that Gary Neville has decided (for the moment) to follow a career in media rather than coaching and management.

I feel he could have been the one to really lead the way for young English coaches to take on their European counterparts.



he certainly seems a massive step above all current pundits in understanding the game.

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Re: England - the future....

by Royal Rother » 25 Jun 2013 12:52

ZacNaloen It's like we are the best of the shit countries.


Unfortunately, during the next 10 years (before the positive impact of Burton are seen which I'm (perhaps naively) confident they ultimately will) I suspect a fair number of those countries we currently might consider "shit" will become better than us.


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Re: England - the future....

by LoyalRoyalFan » 25 Jun 2013 17:08

Once the indifference towards foreign managers goes, England might improve.

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Re: England - the future....

by Royal Rother » 25 Jun 2013 17:11

Hoop Blah That's not what I said. It was sounding like people were saying we were tactically inferior to them, when in reality we weren't.

Why should we expect to be technically better than a country that apparently have been making lots of effort with their football?


You feel it is unreasonable to expect a country with a long established massive professional and amateur league structure, a grass roots game played by tens of thousands of children every week on decent surfaces, some of the best coaches in the world working within its ranks on a full time basis year after year, and billions of pounds pumped into its clubs' coffers over the years, might expect to have a group of technically better players than a regularly war-torn, poverty-stricken, nation such as Iraq where 1/3rd of the land is desert?

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Re: England - the future....

by Terminal Boardom » 26 Jun 2013 11:07

One of the problems lies with the way people in this country expect the game to be played. There is way too much emphasis on effort and strength with way too little on the technical aspects of the game. When I see some of the professional players, I am aghast at the basic inability to control the ball when passed to them. The inability to look to move into space and play a simple pass. There was a Portuguese youth team coach who explained to the youngsters in his care that the ball never gets tired. Johan Cruyff said that he loved playing against British teams because he knew he would always get the ball back sooner or later. Plenty has been said already about the number of UEFA qualified coaches in this country compared with many others in Europe. The so called smaller nations are constantly improving their technique whereas we are still stuck in the Dark Ages.

When it comes to the next World Cup in 2014, if England qualify that will be my level of expectation achieved. If they manage to get out of the group, my expectations will have been exceeded. While watching the Confederations Cup, only Tahiti would lose to England.

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Re: England - the future....

by Barry the bird boggler » 26 Jun 2013 16:00

Terminal Boardom One of the problems lies with the way people in this country expect the game to be played. There is way too much emphasis on effort and strength with way too little on the technical aspects of the game. When I see some of the professional players, I am aghast at the basic inability to control the ball when passed to them. The inability to look to move into space and play a simple pass. There was a Portuguese youth team coach who explained to the youngsters in his care that the ball never gets tired. Johan Cruyff said that he loved playing against British teams because he knew he would always get the ball back sooner or later. Plenty has been said already about the number of UEFA qualified coaches in this country compared with many others in Europe. The so called smaller nations are constantly improving their technique whereas we are still stuck in the Dark Ages.

When it comes to the next World Cup in 2014, if England qualify that will be my level of expectation achieved. If they manage to get out of the group, my expectations will have been exceeded. While watching the Confederations Cup, only Tahiti would lose to England.


Probably by 1-0 to a debated penalty.


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Re: England - the future....

by Pepe the Horseman » 26 Jun 2013 16:47

Harry Kane is really shit.

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Re: England - the future....

by Pepe the Horseman » 26 Jun 2013 17:32

He's played better this half, tbf. Still shit though.

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Re: England - the future....

by Pepe the Horseman » 26 Jun 2013 17:41

Well that was bound to happen.

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Re: England - the future....

by genome » 26 Jun 2013 20:22

You've had a bit of a shocker here Pepe

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Re: England - the future....

by TBM » 05 Sep 2013 00:25

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/england/23965756

Dyke set two ambitious, some might suggest fanciful, targets of England reaching the semi-final of Euro 2020 before his ultimate goal of World Cup triumph in Qatar two years later.

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Re: England - the future....

by 11.30 from paddington » 05 Sep 2013 10:54

2022 is too soon to effect any real change. Are the current crop of 16 - 20 yr olds really going to be good enough to win a world cup? It would make more sense if he stated 2030 as a target and concentrated on kids who are currently 8 - 12 yrs old, whilst taking on board the points raised above (more qualified coaches at grassroots level, encouraging kids to use their brain on the field etc).

We also need to let these kids make mistakes, rather than a win at all costs attitude. Get rid of the mums and dads screaming from the touch line, "Get rid of it! Get stuck in!"

Let the kid try dribbling it out from his own area, rather than booting it out. I'd rather see them try and develop their skills and cock up, rather than hoof it down the pitch to the biggest kid in the team.

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Re: England - the future....

by TBM » 05 Sep 2013 11:00

11.30 from paddington 2022 is too soon to effect any real change. Are the current crop of 16 - 20 yr olds really going to be good enough to win a world cup? It would make more sense if he stated 2030 as a target and concentrated on kids who are currently 8 - 12 yrs old, whilst taking on board the points raised above (more qualified coaches at grassroots level, encouraging kids to use their brain on the field etc).

We also need to let these kids make mistakes, rather than a win at all costs attitude. Get rid of the mums and dads screaming from the touch line, "Get rid of it! Get stuck in!"

Let the kid try dribbling it out from his own area, rather than booting it out. I'd rather see them try and develop their skills and cock up, rather than hoof it down the pitch to the biggest kid in the team.


In fairness my lad has just joined an U8's team and although they have fixtures each week there is no league table and the result is not recorded anywhere. It is also 5-a-side to allow them all to get involved and discourage the long ball game. If any parents shout from the sideline the ref has been informed to stop the game until the person either shuts up or leaves. Also in January after half the fixtures have been played, if one team are winning 11-0 each week they are put up against other sides of similar ability and vise-versa if you're losing 11-0 each week.

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