Qatar Hero - The World Cup 2022 thread

[Millsy]

We were the better team and should've won. More chances, looked more deadly. How much of that was due to us chasing much of the game, don't know.

But for me, a big problem is how soft we are. Wasn't it something like us beign the only team without any yellow cards before this game or something? Being an outlier is always bad - whichever end of the scale it is. Means you're doing too much or not enough of something and so something must change.

The French were hacking the crap out of Kane and especially Saka all game. The violent attack for our second penalty was exactly that - violent thuggery to prevent a goal. They learned very quickly the ref was not fit for purpose and played appropriately. We didn't.

Just like the Italy final a couple of years ago. When it was needed, the guy rugby tackles Saka around the neck. Sending off or not it was violent, dangerous, and ultimately potentially won them the penalty lottery.

I liek Southgate, but his only flaw other than never really (for me) making meaningful positive changes in a game is beign too gentlemanly and clearly expecting the same of his players.

When you know refs are shite, when you can see what's going on, put in some fight,some aggression, play as the other teams do.

Noone will remember you for being gentlemen. Grow a pair of f**king balls.

[Conservative_dad]

Ah yes it was that one sorry. I always seem to remember that one as a chance because I didn't know what the referee had given there so tend to forget it. Even still, take that one out of it and we've still had a few good chances along with a couple of decisions which didn't go our way, France didn't have a great deal more than what we did from memory.

Key difference for me is France created their chances in open play and weren't reliant on set pieces (nothing wrong with that in itself but is reliant on the decisions being given). Their first was a low percentage shot naturally but still space was worked well for him to hit it but they created 2 massive chances for Giroud, one of which was taken - so agreed whilst they didn't create much more they created better quality chances and that is often the difference at that level esp. when the sides were so well matched.

Maguire's header from that distance was more of a half chance really, he was what 12/14 yards out and Rashford's free kick would have been one hell of a goal at any point let alone in the 99th minute - if those are the kind of chances are team are relying on to win a game then they will, unfortunately, lose more than they win particularly when comparing directly to the quality of France's chances.

I wouldn't say what France created were any better, including the goal. As you say, their first was a shot from distance that shouldn't really have gone in, but it was well struck and Pickford saw it late so a bit of benefit of the doubt there. Giroud's second header only goes in as it deflects off Maguire's arm/shoulder, otherwise I don't think it goes in but it's obviously quite difficult to judge.

We had 2 spot kicks from 12 yards and, yes whilst these chances were difficult, they weren't anymore difficult than France's for me. A free kick from 20 yards is a chance at any level, let alone a World Cup QF with the quality on the field and Maguire's was a free header, I think his reaction tells you what you need to know that he felt he should have done better with it. I think those 4 chances are significantly better than what France had, arguably France's "easiest" chance was the one they missed through Giroud.

Again, i'm not suggesting any of our chances were easy, but I still think they were "easier" than what France had. France have an experienced set of winners and found a way to win, they had as much pressure as what we did yet managed to score twice.

xG answers this question for you

England 2.36
France 1.08

xG England 2.36-1.08 France shots (Actual score England 1-2 France)
England 0-1 France Tchouameni goal v England xG 0.02
England 1-1 France Kane penalty v France xG 0.80
England 1-2 France Giroud header v England xG 0.15

Other notable missed opportunities/chances in England France and their xG
84th minute Kane second missed penalty v France xG 0.80
77th minute Giroud chance v England xG 0.55 (saved by Pickford)
70th minute Maguire header chance v France xG 0.10 (hits post)
39th minute Mbappe chance v England xG 0.13 (over bar)
22nd minute Kane chance v France xG 0.16 (saved by Lloris)

[Stranded]

Key difference for me is France created their chances in open play and weren't reliant on set pieces (nothing wrong with that in itself but is reliant on the decisions being given). Their first was a low percentage shot naturally but still space was worked well for him to hit it but they created 2 massive chances for Giroud, one of which was taken - so agreed whilst they didn't create much more they created better quality chances and that is often the difference at that level esp. when the sides were so well matched.

Maguire's header from that distance was more of a half chance really, he was what 12/14 yards out and Rashford's free kick would have been one hell of a goal at any point let alone in the 99th minute - if those are the kind of chances are team are relying on to win a game then they will, unfortunately, lose more than they win particularly when comparing directly to the quality of France's chances.

I wouldn't say what France created were any better, including the goal. As you say, their first was a shot from distance that shouldn't really have gone in, but it was well struck and Pickford saw it late so a bit of benefit of the doubt there. Giroud's second header only goes in as it deflects off Maguire's arm/shoulder, otherwise I don't think it goes in but it's obviously quite difficult to judge.

We had 2 spot kicks from 12 yards and, yes whilst these chances were difficult, they weren't anymore difficult than France's for me. A free kick from 20 yards is a chance at any level, let alone a World Cup QF with the quality on the field and Maguire's was a free header, I think his reaction tells you what you need to know that he felt he should have done better with it. I think those 4 chances are significantly better than what France had, arguably France's "easiest" chance was the one they missed through Giroud.

Again, i'm not suggesting any of our chances were easy, but I still think they were "easier" than what France had. France have an experienced set of winners and found a way to win, they had as much pressure as what we did yet managed to score twice.

xG answers this question for you

England 2.36
France 1.08

xG England 2.36-1.08 France shots (Actual score England 1-2 France)
England 0-1 France Tchouameni goal v England xG 0.02
England 1-1 France Kane penalty v France xG 0.80
England 1-2 France Giroud header v England xG 0.15

Other notable missed opportunities/chances in England France and their xG
84th minute Kane second missed penalty v France xG 0.80
77th minute Giroud chance v England xG 0.55 (saved by Pickford)
70th minute Maguire header chance v France xG 0.10 (hits post)
39th minute Mbappe chance v England xG 0.13 (over bar)
22nd minute Kane chance v France xG 0.16 (saved by Lloris)

So, if you see xG as an accurate guide, shows that France did produce better quality chances than England esp as 1.6 of that 2.36 XG were the two penalties.

[Conservative_dad]

I wouldn't say what France created were any better, including the goal. As you say, their first was a shot from distance that shouldn't really have gone in, but it was well struck and Pickford saw it late so a bit of benefit of the doubt there. Giroud's second header only goes in as it deflects off Maguire's arm/shoulder, otherwise I don't think it goes in but it's obviously quite difficult to judge.

We had 2 spot kicks from 12 yards and, yes whilst these chances were difficult, they weren't anymore difficult than France's for me. A free kick from 20 yards is a chance at any level, let alone a World Cup QF with the quality on the field and Maguire's was a free header, I think his reaction tells you what you need to know that he felt he should have done better with it. I think those 4 chances are significantly better than what France had, arguably France's "easiest" chance was the one they missed through Giroud.

Again, i'm not suggesting any of our chances were easy, but I still think they were "easier" than what France had. France have an experienced set of winners and found a way to win, they had as much pressure as what we did yet managed to score twice.

xG answers this question for you

England 2.36
France 1.08

xG England 2.36-1.08 France shots (Actual score England 1-2 France)
England 0-1 France Tchouameni goal v England xG 0.02
England 1-1 France Kane penalty v France xG 0.80
England 1-2 France Giroud header v England xG 0.15

Other notable missed opportunities/chances in England France and their xG
84th minute Kane second missed penalty v France xG 0.80
77th minute Giroud chance v England xG 0.55 (saved by Pickford)
70th minute Maguire header chance v France xG 0.10 (hits post)
39th minute Mbappe chance v England xG 0.13 (over bar)
22nd minute Kane chance v France xG 0.16 (saved by Lloris)

So, if you see xG as an accurate guide, shows that France did produce better quality chances than England esp as 1.6 of that 2.36 XG were the two penalties.

so penalties aren't chances...you were in possession of the ball in the opponent's area

[YorkshireRoyal99]

I wouldn't say what France created were any better, including the goal. As you say, their first was a shot from distance that shouldn't really have gone in, but it was well struck and Pickford saw it late so a bit of benefit of the doubt there. Giroud's second header only goes in as it deflects off Maguire's arm/shoulder, otherwise I don't think it goes in but it's obviously quite difficult to judge.

We had 2 spot kicks from 12 yards and, yes whilst these chances were difficult, they weren't anymore difficult than France's for me. A free kick from 20 yards is a chance at any level, let alone a World Cup QF with the quality on the field and Maguire's was a free header, I think his reaction tells you what you need to know that he felt he should have done better with it. I think those 4 chances are significantly better than what France had, arguably France's "easiest" chance was the one they missed through Giroud.

Again, i'm not suggesting any of our chances were easy, but I still think they were "easier" than what France had. France have an experienced set of winners and found a way to win, they had as much pressure as what we did yet managed to score twice.

xG answers this question for you

England 2.36
France 1.08

xG England 2.36-1.08 France shots (Actual score England 1-2 France)
England 0-1 France Tchouameni goal v England xG 0.02
England 1-1 France Kane penalty v France xG 0.80
England 1-2 France Giroud header v England xG 0.15

Other notable missed opportunities/chances in England France and their xG
84th minute Kane second missed penalty v France xG 0.80
77th minute Giroud chance v England xG 0.55 (saved by Pickford)
70th minute Maguire header chance v France xG 0.10 (hits post)
39th minute Mbappe chance v England xG 0.13 (over bar)
22nd minute Kane chance v France xG 0.16 (saved by Lloris)

So, if you see xG as an accurate guide, shows that France did produce better quality chances than England esp as 1.6 of that 2.36 XG were the two penalties.

Well, not really no because penalties are chances, you can't really ignore the elephant in the room. You have a look at both France's goals and they were less expected than Kane's chance in the 22nd minute, which wasn't exactly easy either as the angle was tight with an onrushing goalkeeper. I haven't watched it back several times but I thought Maguire's chance was better than what the numbers are suggesting, but if that's what they are then fair enough, just judging by the players' reaction he seemed very frustrated.

Those figures don't even include Rashford's free kick either which may swing it even further in England's favour. I don't really agree with the set pieces logic either, it's a very explorable avenue to goal and many of the best teams in the world (both club and international) are very good at them, they can't be understated. Yes, I'd like us to be able to create a load of chances in open play, but if we can't I've no qualms with a set play being a route to winning a game, even against a minnow.

[Franchise FC]

Are there any young pacey defenders coming through the U18/U21s? That's what the team is lacking.

That's exactly it, some pace at the back

Walker was excellent, but he's no spring chicken and the rest of the back 4*/5* are not quick

* delete as appropriate

[6ft Kerplunk]

Those figures don't even include Rashford's free kick either which may swing it even further in England's favour. I don't really agree with the set pieces logic either, it's a very explorable avenue to goal and many of the best teams in the world (both club and international) are very good at them, they can't be understated. Yes, I'd like us to be able to create a load of chances in open play, but if we can't I've no qualms with a set play being a route to winning a game, even against a minnow.

I thought our set pieces were pretty poor this tournament compared to 2018. Also got me thinking about them in general. You normally get the taker raising one or two arms to indicate what corner they're going to take and it always seems a bit simplistic. Surely they could have 10 or so different routines and call them like a quarterback?

[Maguire]

I'll criticise England as much as the next man but they were just better than France on Saturday. In every metric apart from the one that mattered, England outperformed the French. And yet despite being second best, France still found a way to win, which is what champions do. The ref was poor but not the reason we lost, I wouldn't go down that road.

I am surprised at how disappointed I was at the result given i've not been massively invested in this World Cup - I feel like it was out best chance to win the whole thing since 1990 and i'm note sure i have 32 years left to wait for another chance.

Looking back to the first tournament I remember - Mexico 86 - it's an incredible litany of missed opportunities and narrow margins. Actually incredible that England didn't manage to win *any* of the matches below (and yes, fully accept we did win pens against Spain 86 and Colombia 18 for example):

1986 - lost to a flagrant handball
1990 - lost on penalties
1996 - lost on penalties
1998 - lost on penalties
2002 - freak Ronaldinho free-kick (but also didn't play too well)
2004 - lost on penalties
2006 - lost on penalties
2010 - 100% clear goal not given
2012 - lost on penalties
2020 - lost on penalties
2022 - missed a penalty

[Maguire]

Those figures don't even include Rashford's free kick either which may swing it even further in England's favour. I don't really agree with the set pieces logic either, it's a very explorable avenue to goal and many of the best teams in the world (both club and international) are very good at them, they can't be understated. Yes, I'd like us to be able to create a load of chances in open play, but if we can't I've no qualms with a set play being a route to winning a game, even against a minnow.

I thought our set pieces were pretty poor this tournament compared to 2018. Also got me thinking about them in general. You normally get the taker raising one or two arms to indicate what corner they're going to take and it always seems a bit simplistic. Surely they could have 10 or so different routines and call them like a quarterback?

I agree it turned out to be far less of a weapon than expected, and credit to France who defended them well (with the exception of Maguire hitting the post)

[Conservative_dad]

xG answers this question for you

England 2.36
France 1.08

xG England 2.36-1.08 France shots (Actual score England 1-2 France)
England 0-1 France Tchouameni goal v England xG 0.02
England 1-1 France Kane penalty v France xG 0.80
England 1-2 France Giroud header v England xG 0.15

Other notable missed opportunities/chances in England France and their xG
84th minute Kane second missed penalty v France xG 0.80
77th minute Giroud chance v England xG 0.55 (saved by Pickford)
70th minute Maguire header chance v France xG 0.10 (hits post)
39th minute Mbappe chance v England xG 0.13 (over bar)
22nd minute Kane chance v France xG 0.16 (saved by Lloris)

So, if you see xG as an accurate guide, shows that France did produce better quality chances than England esp as 1.6 of that 2.36 XG were the two penalties.

Well, not really no because penalties are chances, you can't really ignore the elephant in the room. You have a look at both France's goals and they were less expected than Kane's chance in the 22nd minute, which wasn't exactly easy either as the angle was tight with an onrushing goalkeeper. I haven't watched it back several times but I thought Maguire's chance was better than what the numbers are suggesting, but if that's what they are then fair enough, just judging by the players' reaction he seemed very frustrated.

Those figures don't even include Rashford's free kick either which may swing it even further in England's favour. I don't really agree with the set pieces logic either, it's a very explorable avenue to goal and many of the best teams in the world (both club and international) are very good at them, they can't be understated. Yes, I'd like us to be able to create a load of chances in open play, but if we can't I've no qualms with a set play being a route to winning a game, even against a minnow.

corners are 0.03
direct freekicks 0.06 (averaged)



the total xG includes Rashford's freekick

[Maguire]

So, if you see xG as an accurate guide, shows that France did produce better quality chances than England esp as 1.6 of that 2.36 XG were the two penalties.

I mean, it doesn't show this at all. France didn't have chances anywhere near as good as England's two penalties yet still ran out 2-1 winners.

They caught a lucky one, which happens and I don't think there was anything untoward about the result. If you think about league football, it's rare you win five matches in a row - at some point the opposition will ping one in from distance, or one will deflect off your shoulder, or you'll get a bad decision, or just not play well on the day. Winning tournaments is hard.

[Conservative_dad]

So, if you see xG as an accurate guide, shows that France did produce better quality chances than England esp as 1.6 of that 2.36 XG were the two penalties.

I mean, it doesn't show this at all. France didn't have chances anywhere near as good as England's two penalties yet still ran out 2-1 winners.

They caught a lucky one, which happens and I don't think there was anything untoward about the result. If you think about league football, it's rare you win five matches in a row - at some point the opposition will ping one in from distance, or one will deflect off your shoulder, or you'll get a bad decision, or just not play well on the day. Winning tournaments is hard.

xactly. If there was no variance, it'd be pointless playing. Just award it to the favourite

[Conservative_dad]

THE BEST PENALTY SHOOTER PORTRAIT

Sex: Male
Age: 30+
Position: Forward/Attacking midfielder
Foot: Left
Nationality group: Asia
Zodiac: Leo
Penalty experience: Regular penalty taker/Scorer of the team

https://instatsport.com/football/articl ... y_research

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[South Coast Royal]

Those figures don't even include Rashford's free kick either which may swing it even further in England's favour. I don't really agree with the set pieces logic either, it's a very explorable avenue to goal and many of the best teams in the world (both club and international) are very good at them, they can't be understated. Yes, I'd like us to be able to create a load of chances in open play, but if we can't I've no qualms with a set play being a route to winning a game, even against a minnow.

I thought our set pieces were pretty poor this tournament compared to 2018. Also got me thinking about them in general. You normally get the taker raising one or two arms to indicate what corner they're going to take and it always seems a bit simplistic. Surely they could have 10 or so different routines and call them like a quarterback?

What annoys me, like you, with free-kicks is the lack of imagination and the desire to shoot when I feel that the likelihood of scoring is slim.
Remember that game v Greece (?) when Beckham took all those free-kicks, shot every time and eventually got one in added time that the keeper probably should have saved.

Coventry on Saturday showed more imagination with their various free-kicks on Saturday than any of the countries at this World Cup, a World Cup where you feel that some of the best managers/ coaches have some of the best players in the world available.
The record this time for penalties being scored is abysmal so surely when there is a wall in place the likelihood of scoring direct from a free kick is appreciably less still?

[leon]

THE BEST PENALTY SHOOTER PORTRAIT

Sex: Male
Age: 30+
Position: Forward/Attacking midfielder
Foot: Left
Nationality group: Asia
Zodiac: Leo
Penalty experience: Regular penalty taker/Scorer of the team

https://instatsport.com/football/articl ... y_research

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leaders of men

[Stranded]

So, if you see xG as an accurate guide, shows that France did produce better quality chances than England esp as 1.6 of that 2.36 XG were the two penalties.

I mean, it doesn't show this at all. France didn't have chances anywhere near as good as England's two penalties yet still ran out 2-1 winners.

They caught a lucky one, which happens and I don't think there was anything untoward about the result. If you think about league football, it's rare you win five matches in a row - at some point the opposition will ping one in from distance, or one will deflect off your shoulder, or you'll get a bad decision, or just not play well on the day. Winning tournaments is hard.

My earlier point, that admittedly I didn't re-clarify was that France created better chances in open play.

Of course penalties are chances, they are the biggest chance you can get hence why they are 0.8 XG but that wasn't my point.

[YorkshireRoyal99]

Those figures don't even include Rashford's free kick either which may swing it even further in England's favour. I don't really agree with the set pieces logic either, it's a very explorable avenue to goal and many of the best teams in the world (both club and international) are very good at them, they can't be understated. Yes, I'd like us to be able to create a load of chances in open play, but if we can't I've no qualms with a set play being a route to winning a game, even against a minnow.

I thought our set pieces were pretty poor this tournament compared to 2018. Also got me thinking about them in general. You normally get the taker raising one or two arms to indicate what corner they're going to take and it always seems a bit simplistic. Surely they could have 10 or so different routines and call them like a quarterback?

What annoys me, like you, with free-kicks is the lack of imagination and the desire to shoot when I feel that the likelihood of scoring is slim.
Remember that game v Greece (?) when Beckham took all those free-kicks, shot every time and eventually got one in added time that the keeper probably should have saved.

Coventry on Saturday showed more imagination with their various free-kicks on Saturday than any of the countries at this World Cup, a World Cup where you feel that some of the best managers/ coaches have some of the best players in the world available.
The record this time for penalties being scored is abysmal so surely when there is a wall in place the likelihood of scoring direct from a free kick is appreciably less still?

Replying to both here.

Yes, I thought our set plays were pretty poor in the main, although I think that was a common theme throughout the tournament and is a major complaint by many fans of the tournament. I saw a lot of corners cleared comfortably at the near post, a lot of short corners that were maybe wasted etc. I don't know off hand, but weren't we more than halfway through the group stage when the first set piece goal was scored? There may have been one before the excellent strike by Mexico's Chavez, but that was the last group stage and a direct finish. I'm excluding penalties as well here, but they can be included if needs be.

Also, agree with the imagination aspect as well, I think that's what made Holland's equaliser against Argentina as good as it was. The invention, coupled together with the time of the free kick, was just incredibly brave really. Imagine if that went wrong, there would have been hell on in the Holland camp, but it was obviously rehearsed. Even sometimes like our set piece goal vs Luton during Pauno's first year in a 2-1 win, another well thought of set play. For such a good avenue to score, there is not enough work done on the training field to perfect this and many coaches have admitted to this as well.

[6ft Kerplunk]

Guess they had limited prep time before the tournament started compared to a normal World Cup. But you'd think the coaches would have come up with some that could have been worked on in the gap between the group stages and knock out games.

[Ascotexgunner]

Guess they had limited prep time before the tournament started compared to a normal World Cup. But you'd think the coaches would have come up with some that could have been worked on in the gap between the group stages and knock out games.

Good basis for a conspiracy theory and why the European sides had done poorly.

[Green]

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