World Cup Qualification - Brazil 2014

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Ouroboros
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Re: World Cup Qualification - Brazil 2014

by Ouroboros » 17 Oct 2013 16:01

Good stuff from Simon Burnton:

http://www.theguardian.com/football/blo ... friendlies

So it's official, England will not be seeded in the World Cup draw. Fifa's latest world rankings, in which the world's top seven will join Brazil as seeds, puts them only 10th. But the frustration is that they might have made it, had they only tried. The difference between success and failure in this race lies not only in results on the pitch, though they obviously help, but in a bit of thought being put in off it. Sure, had England held on to their half-time lead in Montenegro in March, or beaten Ukraine last month, a place in pot one would have been theirs, but the easiest way for the Football Association to have made sure their team got seeded wasn't by getting them to actually play well – which is an awfully complicated business – but by occasionally making sure they didn't play at all.

This is going to get mildly complicated, so bear with me. The basic facts to start with: in the latest Fifa rankings there are 58 points between England and Switzerland, the last of the seeded teams. England's performances this year have contributed 485.46 towards their total, the number of points won on average per match played. Switzerland have averaged 669.63 points per match this year. The Swiss had a kind qualifying draw, and played their hand admirably well, but the key difference between the teams, the reason why the Swiss will be seeded and the English will miss out, is that England have played five friendlies in the last year (W2 D2 L1), and Switzerland only three (W2 D1).

Fifa's ranking system heavily rewards competitive fixtures – a European team will get 2.5 times more points for a result in World Cup qualifying than the same result against the same team at the same time in a friendly. The most points it is possible to win in a friendly – by beating the world's No1 team – is 600, which is still below Switzerland's average. If even winning a friendly can hurt a top team's ranking, imagine the damage that drawing or losing can do.

For example, against Sweden last November England were leading 2-1 with 15 minutes to play, made a stream of second-half substitutions and eventually lost the match 4-2. The match earned them no ranking points. Had they simply not played that game they would currently be 48.55 points better off. Six months later England won a feeble 161 points by drawing with the Republic of Ireland. Had that game also never been scheduled, England would currently be ranked by Fifa as the sixth best team in the world.

A combination of pride and commercial imperatives have forced the FA to schedule a string of prestige friendlies – against the best sides on the planet, whose excellence means they are most likely to cause England to fail, or against other British or Irish nations, who will be hugely motivated by the occasion. If a place among the seeds in the World Cup finals is a priority then, in the year before the finals draw (when results are given much greater weight by Fifa), an association should schedule as few friendlies as possible, and if they really must arrange one they must win it.

Play the percentages: England would have got 543 points had they won at the Maracanã in June, but there were just 181 on offer for a draw while defeat would have left them with nothing. Meanwhile you can get 483 points for beating Peru at home, or 468 for beating Honduras. In this context the FA's decision to schedule an away friendly against Brazil, or for that matter Sweden, in the year of a World Cup finals draw is unjustifiable. Even if all their other results had been unchanged, had England played no friendlies at all in the last 12 months they would be 181 ranking points better off, officially the fourth best team in the world.

They could also have scheduled their competitive games better. Even in qualifiers a victory against one of the very worst sides in Europe, such as San Marino, is worth just 375 points. In other words, being drawn against a rank no-hoper during qualification is severely detrimental to a team's chances of being seeded once qualified. The only way of limiting the damage is by scheduling both matches against them more than a year before the finals draw, because Fifa's system massively prioritises results over the most recent 12-month period.

Matches you might well lose should also go here, while games more likely to bring hefty returns – against average-to-good nations, especially at home – should never be among the first qualifiers played. The current system greatly favours South American sides, who play more qualifiers, 18, with no side currently ranked below 71 in the world. Whoever gets through that group is all but guaranteed a points bonanza.

(As an aside, France recently complained that they were disadvantaged by being in a five-team group, which gave them two fewer qualifiers and therefore fewer chances to accumulate ranking points. This is total nonsense – the addition of a feeble sixth team to their group would have enormously reduced their point-scoring potential. Had they finished qualifying with a 100% record, and taking their opponents' rankings at the point the draw was made, their matches would, on average, each have brought 1,173.62 points. The addition of San Marino, Andorra or Malta would have reduced this average by 159.72. The truth is that theirs would have been the best group of all, had they only played better.)


There is also an element of luck, because points are calculated according to a team's ranking at the moment the match takes place, which has nothing to do with the opponent.

For example, when the qualifying draw was made in July 2011 Moldova had a world ranking of 85, meaning that at that moment England could have earned a handsome 862.5 points by beating them. But their ranking had been inflated by a couple of rogue victories in previous qualifying campaigns.

These results became less important as time passed, and when England actually got round to playing them in September 2012 they had dropped down to 141, and the maximum points available for a win was a miserable 442.50. If, when the draw was made, Armenia rather than Moldova had been placed from pot five into England's group, and if England had beaten them home and away, they would be 62.44 points better off and, even without changing their friendlies or any other results, would have usurped the Swiss as world No7.

So if England do find themselves in the group of death next summer lessons should be learned. Recent, painful history has taught us that a team of England's quality will always mess up in matches, whoever's sitting on the bench. But Fifa's system hands great power to the administrators, and gives whoever schedules matches – or refuses to – the chance to give their team a significant boost. Next time, the FA should take it.

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Re: World Cup Qualification - Brazil 2014

by Brum Royal » 17 Oct 2013 16:11

Very interesting reading. Thanks

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Re: World Cup Qualification - Brazil 2014

by Silver Fox » 17 Oct 2013 16:33

'greed, can't see it getting rid of the monthly "why are the rankings so stoopid" thread

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Re: World Cup Qualification - Brazil 2014

by Brum Royal » 17 Oct 2013 16:39

TBM
paultheroyal Group 5

England
Australia
Switzerland
Yanks


LOL - if you take the first letter of each country it spells EASY :lol: :lol: :lol:


2010 called, the Sun wants it's headline back

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Re: World Cup Qualification - Brazil 2014

by ZacNaloen » 17 Oct 2013 16:46

Not a bad group. We'll still get someone ridiculous like spain or brazil in the quarters if we do get out of it.


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Re: World Cup Qualification - Brazil 2014

by just some bloke » 17 Oct 2013 18:47

I think a harder draw is possibly a good thing. I'd argue the 2010 EASY group, itself after an incredibly easy ride to finals, was not the best preparation for a second round match-up against Germany. Similarly in 2006, when we had a ludicrously easy route to the quarter finals, we came a cropper as soon as we faced decent opposition in the shape of Portugal.

It would be far better to have a tough group to motivate the players to up their game against a marquee opponent. Besides, as fans do we really want to sit through the England team making hard work of another dull group.

Brazil, England, Ivory Coast and Australia would be a great group. England, Ukraine, Ecuador and Iran? Where's the fun in that?

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Re: World Cup Qualification - Brazil 2014

by tmesis » 17 Oct 2013 22:37

ZacNaloen Not a bad group. We'll still get someone ridiculous like spain or brazil in the quarters if we do get out of it.


We'll still go out in the quarters whoever we get, so it doesn't really matter.

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Re: World Cup Qualification - Brazil 2014

by Wax Jacket » 18 Oct 2013 11:08

just some bloke I think a harder draw is possibly a good thing. I'd argue the 2010 EASY group, itself after an incredibly easy ride to finals, was not the best preparation for a second round match-up against Germany. Similarly in 2006, when we had a ludicrously easy route to the quarter finals, we came a cropper as soon as we faced decent opposition in the shape of Portugal.

It would be far better to have a tough group to motivate the players to up their game against a marquee opponent. Besides, as fans do we really want to sit through the England team making hard work of another dull group.

Brazil, England, Ivory Coast and Australia would be a great group. England, Ukraine, Ecuador and Iran? Where's the fun in that?


'greed

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Re: World Cup Qualification - Brazil 2014

by Hoop Blah » 18 Oct 2013 13:01

just some bloke ...Similarly in 2006, when we had a ludicrously easy route to the quarter finals, we came a cropper as soon as we faced decent opposition in the shape of Portugal.


Came a cropper? You make it sound like we were under cooked and outplayed by them. The reality is of course that we probably should've beat them with 10 men for 60 minutes and then yet again went out on penalties.


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Re: World Cup Qualification - Brazil 2014

by soggy biscuit » 18 Oct 2013 13:21

going out at the group stage having played 3 good teams > going out in the 2nd round having made hard work of an EASY type group stage then losing to someone only half decent

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Re: World Cup Qualification - Brazil 2014

by just some bloke » 18 Oct 2013 13:49

Hoop Blah Came a cropper? You make it sound like we were under cooked and outplayed by them. The reality is of course that we probably should've beat them with 10 men for 60 minutes and then yet again went out on penalties.


The point I'm making -- which should be rather obvious -- is that if we'd have faced (and beaten) tougher opposition en route to playing Portugal we would have been in a better position to close out that game without even needing to get to penalties. You could also argue that having beaten someone better than Ukraine and Trinidad in previous games would have given the players a more confident aura going into the shoot-out.

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Re: World Cup Qualification - Brazil 2014

by southbank1871 » 21 Oct 2013 13:44

So the draw for the play-offs has been made:

Portugal v Sweden
Greece v Romania
Ukraine v France
Iceland v Croatia

My predictions are Portugal, Romania, Ukraine and Croatia to qualify.

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Re: World Cup Qualification - Brazil 2014

by genome » 21 Oct 2013 13:46

I would love it, love it if Ukraine beat France.


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Re: World Cup Qualification - Brazil 2014

by Silver Fox » 21 Oct 2013 13:47

Sweden, Romania, France and Iceland for me

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Re: World Cup Qualification - Brazil 2014

by YateleyRoyal » 21 Oct 2013 14:00

southbank1871 So the draw for the play-offs has been made:

Portugal v Sweden
Greece v Romania
Ukraine v France
Iceland v Croatia

My predictions are Portugal, Romania, Ukraine and Croatia to qualify.


Portugal, Romania, Ukraine and Iceland

And Iceland vs Croatia is the only one i remotely care about.
Last edited by YateleyRoyal on 21 Oct 2013 14:04, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: World Cup Qualification - Brazil 2014

by soggy biscuit » 21 Oct 2013 14:03

Sweden, Romania, France, Croatia

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Re: World Cup Qualification - Brazil 2014

by just some bloke » 21 Oct 2013 14:19

soggy biscuit Sweden, Romania, France, Croatia


Head: Portugal, Greece, France, Croatia

Heart: Portugal, Romania, Ukraine, Iceland

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Re: World Cup Qualification - Brazil 2014

by Green » 21 Oct 2013 14:21

Will be cracking open the Brennivín big time if Iceland make it.

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Re: World Cup Qualification - Brazil 2014

by just some bloke » 21 Oct 2013 14:24

genome I would love it, love it if Ukraine beat France.


+1

For all the criticism England get, it would be good to see England benchmarked against France a little more. For a supposedly big player on the international stage they've been pretty woeful in recent years. They got knocked out of Euro 2012 after finishing below England in their group, knocked out of the first round of the 2010 World Cup in the first round after basically cheating against Ireland to get there in the first place, and couldn't even get seeded for this play-off draw. And they finished bottom of their group at Euro 2008.

France are crap.

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Re: World Cup Qualification - Brazil 2014

by just some bloke » 21 Oct 2013 14:26

Green Will be cracking open the Brennivín big time if Iceland make it.


I for one would encourage Prime Minister Sigmundur Davíð Gunnlaugsson to give his countrymen a national holiday in celebration if they make it.

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