Holland v Spain - World Cup Final

[PEARCEY]

If Webb had sent off the 1st player possibly deserving of a red card, ok, the players might have altered their approach somewhat, but it would have made the game become a turgid bore-fest. Holland would have sat back and done nothing for the remainder of 120 minutes. Webb would then have got hammered by one and all for ruining the biggest showpiece game in the world.

He wasn't to know that it would become an equally unattractive spectacle anyway.

Not necessarily. It may well have resulted in Spain scoring earlier against 10 men forcing the Dutch to be more positive. In turn it would have made the Dutch more vulnerable when Spain counter-attacked.
It could have become a goal-fest classic.

[RoyalChicagoFC]

Right, can anyone recollect the identity of the last side to knock the world and European champions out of a FIFA-sanctioned competition?

Seem to recall a good bit of chuckling about it in these pages, downplaying the whole thing --"carrying on like they just won the World Cup" etc

Anywas*, who the devil were those guys again...

Easy-peasy. France.

::BZZZZZZZZZZZT::

errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

its the St7s in the Confeder7ions cup.

::ding!::

[Maguire]

I knew what you were getting at but the question read like you wanted to know who last knocked out a side who, at the time, were reigning Euro and World champs.

Which I guess would technically be Denmark when they beat France 2-0 in the last group match in 2002?

[soggy biscuit]

Has Pepe Reina now won a World Cup winners medal & European Championship medal without playing a single minute in either competition?

[RoyalChicagoFC]

^^Fair do's pips --should "of" been more precise in my wording, etc

Has Pepe Reina now won a World Cup winners medal & European Championship medal without playing a single minute in either competition?

Liverpool signed him in July of 2005, if that's what you're referring to on the latter count

So I think that the correct answer is "no"

[soggy biscuit]

^^Fair do's pips --should "of" been more precise in my wording, etc

Has Pepe Reina now won a World Cup winners medal & European Championship medal without playing a single minute in either competition?

Liverpool signed him in July of 2005, if that's what you're referring to on the latter count

So I think that the correct answer is "no"

Nah, I meant the Euro's not Champions League. Having checked up I can confirm he played in 1 Euro's game and no World Cup games. I am sure he will tell his grandchildren different.

[RoyalChicagoFC]

::clang!:: woops soz soggz got it

Sheez, I swill 22 ounces of cold beer two hours after the final and get an extra hour's sleep this morning and have spent the rest of the day in a fruitless process of attempting to extract my brain from my bowels

I'll keep y'all apprised of developments, if any

[Archie's penalty]

errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

its the States in the Confederations cup.

Right. D'oh.

[Mr Angry]

Since Sunday, the universal verdict of all the pundits is that the Dutch were a disgrace, and that it was good for football that Spain won. Why? Because Spain play attractive football "the way its meant to be played", whilst the Dutch did everything they could, by fair means and (mostly) foul, to stop them.

Fair enough.

So next season, I fully expect those self same pundits and newspaper experts to utterly condemn the Bolton's and Blackburn's of the Premier League who like to "get in the faces" of teams technically more gifted than them, in order to stop them playing.

Or will they say (put on a Scots accent for Hansen and Gray) "Aye, thats the way that Blackburn /Bolton/Stoke like to play against Arsenal/Chelsea/Man Utd - get in their faces and stop them playing their pretty football, its the English way".

[Sun Tzu]

Since Sunday, the universal verdict of all the pundits is that the Dutch were a disgrace, and that it was good for football that Spain won. Why? Because Spain play attractive football "the way its meant to be played", whilst the Dutch did everything they could, by fair means and (mostly) foul, to stop them.

Fair enough.

So next season, I fully expect those self same pundits and newspaper experts to utterly condemn the Bolton's and Blackburn's of the Premier League who like to "get in the faces" of teams technically more gifted than them, in order to stop them playing.

Or will they say (put on a Scots accent for Hansen and Gray) "Aye, thats the way that Blackburn /Bolton/Stoke like to play against Arsenal/Chelsea/Man Utd - get in their faces and stop them playing their pretty football, its the English way".

I'm not sure that's quite fair Angry....

In a WC Final you expect a team with a lot of talented players to adopt a rather less negative approach. Holland should have been capable of so much more, they should have been able to go out and play against Spain. They chose to make the showpiece game of World football an unpleasant, negative affair. Spain were not innocent either and it was really sad to see both teams employing the dark arts, and then people passing the blame on to the referee afterwards !

I don't like the way some teams approach the PL, but generally the more physical teams simply do not have the players to compete with the big boys in teams of skill. They are also playing 40 games, not one. It would be great of the PL was nothing but beautiful football but that's not realistic. I think it would be right to criticise teams who are 100% negative / destructive but you also need to spot the difference between a World Cup final and a league season.

[jumpers for goalposts]

Interesting that none of the players involved in these nasty instances have held their hands up and admitted that they behaved poorly- I guess it's just easier to blame someone else for their failings. A classic mirroring of the times in which we live if ever i've seen one.

So far Webb is apparently at fault for the Spain goal, at fault for not sending off around 6 players, failing to control the players etc. Perhaps they ought to just play the final again, and then we can blame the next poor fool that has to attempt to referee this bunch of petulant brats, for all the errors that the players make.

Luckily we now have a month or so before the new season, before the hate filled vitriol starts all over again towards the officials. I wonder how long into the season it will take before Wenger, Ferguson, Alan Green are at it again, as well as the throes of idiots on this board that are convinced that every ref who visits the Mad Stad has it in for us. Roll on the new season

[Mr Angry]

Since Sunday, the universal verdict of all the pundits is that the Dutch were a disgrace, and that it was good for football that Spain won. Why? Because Spain play attractive football "the way its meant to be played", whilst the Dutch did everything they could, by fair means and (mostly) foul, to stop them.

Fair enough.

So next season, I fully expect those self same pundits and newspaper experts to utterly condemn the Bolton's and Blackburn's of the Premier League who like to "get in the faces" of teams technically more gifted than them, in order to stop them playing.

Or will they say (put on a Scots accent for Hansen and Gray) "Aye, thats the way that Blackburn /Bolton/Stoke like to play against Arsenal/Chelsea/Man Utd - get in their faces and stop them playing their pretty football, its the English way".

I'm not sure that's quite fair Angry....

In a WC Final you expect a team with a lot of talented players to adopt a rather less negative approach. Holland should have been capable of so much more, they should have been able to go out and play against Spain. They chose to make the showpiece game of World football an unpleasant, negative affair. Spain were not innocent either and it was really sad to see both teams employing the dark arts, and then people passing the blame on to the referee afterwards !

I don't like the way some teams approach the PL, but generally the more physical teams simply do not have the players to compete with the big boys in teams of skill. They are also playing 40 games, not one. It would be great of the PL was nothing but beautiful football but that's not realistic. I think it would be right to criticise teams who are 100% negative / destructive but you also need to spot the difference between a World Cup final and a league season.

Unlike many on this thread, I'm not saying that Spain were brilliant and Holland cr@p, or that the Spanish were equally culpable for making that game simply awful to watch, I was making the point that, if pundits and commentators condemn the tactics employed by a team in one game, then they should do so if the same tactics are employed by other teams in other games, rather than make excuses for it.

Not to do so is frankly hypocritical.

[Sun Tzu]

Unlike many on this thread, I'm not saying that Spain were brilliant and Holland cr@p, or that the Spanish were equally culpable for making that game simply awful to watch, I was making the point that, if pundits and commentators condemn the tactics employed by a team in one game, then they should do so if the same tactics are employed by other teams in other games, rather than make excuses for it.

Not to do so is frankly hypocritical.

I think it's also rather simplistic !

And to be fair Stoke, Wigan and Bolton have had LOADS of criticism for being overly physical / one dimensional etc

[Maguire]

tbf to Holland, for the first ten minutes they looked like they'd get detroyed, then they got a foothold in the game and competed for the rest of it. If Robben had finished the chance of the game then they'd be the world champions and the ends would thoroughly have justified the means.

[papereyes]

Has Pepe Reina now won a World Cup winners medal & European Championship medal without playing a single minute in either competition?

Jimmy Rimmer has two European cup winners medals, for two clubs, 15 odd years apart. And only played 9 minutes of football.

[Nick Shorey my Lord!]

http://www.sportinglife.com/football/ne ... lonso.html

[brendywendy]

tbf to Holland, for the first ten minutes they looked like they'd get detroyed, then they got a foothold in the game and competed for the rest of it. If Robben had finished the chance of the game then they'd be the world champions and the ends would thoroughly have justified the means.

thought they looked more likely to score for most of the 90 mins tbf

[RoyalChicagoFC]

Read this, mindful at all turns of the fact that it's a polemic of sorts and that quotes from the Dutch players and coach are used selectively and not placed in their full context

They tried it, it didn't work, and the better side won --take their own damned word for it

[Starfish]

Has Pepe Reina now won a World Cup winners medal & European Championship medal without playing a single minute in either competition?

Jimmy Rimmer has two European cup winners medals, for two clubs, 15 odd years apart. And only played 9 minutes of football.

Only 9 minutes of football 'in the finals themselves'. In the competitions, many many more minutes.

[Archie's penalty]

tbf to Holland, for the first ten minutes they looked like they'd get detroyed, then they got a foothold in the game and competed for the rest of it. If Robben had finished the chance of the game then they'd be the world champions and the ends would thoroughly have justified the means.

thought they looked more likely to score for most of the 90 mins tbf

yep totally agree.